So all energy damage is halved before hardness is applied... which means the 1d6 fire damage a torch could do isn't going to set wood (hardness 5 versus maximum damage of 3 after dividing the damage in half) on fire.
Not to mention the fact that Bombs are going to be worthless for blowing stuff up... which just sounds wrong to me.
Ideas or solutions?
There is a line in there about "DM discretion" but I've yet to meet a discreet DM when I'm trying to use fire on wood...
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So all energy damage is halved before hardness is applied... which means the 1d6 fire damage a torch could do isn't going to set wood (hardness 5 versus maximum damage of 3 after dividing the damage in half) on fire.
Not to mention the fact that Bombs are going to be worthless for blowing stuff up... which just sounds wrong to me.
Ideas or solutions?
There is a line in there about "DM discretion" but I've yet to meet a discreet DM when I'm trying to use fire on wood...
I think there is a general assumption that a wood's hardness rating isn't effective against fire; does hardness work against elements?
Anywho, I think another discovery could be DEMOLITIONS EXPERT (or something similar) wherein you do x2 or even x3 damage to objects.
So all energy damage is halved before hardness is applied... which means the 1d6 fire damage a torch could do isn't going to set wood (hardness 5 versus maximum damage of 3 after dividing the damage in half) on fire.
Not to mention the fact that Bombs are going to be worthless for blowing stuff up... which just sounds wrong to me.
Ideas or solutions?
There is a line in there about "DM discretion" but I've yet to meet a discreet DM when I'm trying to use fire on wood...
I think there is a general assumption that a wood's hardness rating isn't effective against fire; does hardness work against elements?
Anywho, I think another discovery could be DEMOLITIONS EXPERT (or something similar) wherein you do x2 or even x3 damage to objects.
or one that does a fire ball like effect.
Well I don't disagree with you however:
Page 173:
"Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying an object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, [b] subject to GM discretion."
The problem is that GM discretion (not common sense) is required, and as such if you have a "by the rules" GM then a torch can't set wood on fire.
So all energy damage is halved before hardness is applied... which means the 1d6 fire damage a torch could do isn't going to set wood (hardness 5 versus maximum damage of 3 after dividing the damage in half) on fire.
Not to mention the fact that Bombs are going to be worthless for blowing stuff up... which just sounds wrong to me.
Ideas or solutions?
There is a line in there about "DM discretion" but I've yet to meet a discreet DM when I'm trying to use fire on wood...
I think you answered your question right there. It definitely falls under "DM's discretion".
The 1d3 damage from a torch is from a brief (less than 1 round = 6 seconds) touch; if you briefly a wooden door over and over again, it's going to take an awful long time to set that door on fire.
So all energy damage is halved before hardness is applied... which means the 1d6 fire damage a torch could do isn't going to set wood (hardness 5 versus maximum damage of 3 after dividing the damage in half) on fire.
Not to mention the fact that Bombs are going to be worthless for blowing stuff up... which just sounds wrong to me.
Ideas or solutions?
There is a line in there about "DM discretion" but I've yet to meet a discreet DM when I'm trying to use fire on wood...
I think you answered your question right there. It definitely falls under "DM's discretion".
The 1d3 damage from a torch is from a brief (less than 1 round = 6 seconds) touch; if you briefly a wooden door over and over again, it's going to take an awful long time to set that door on fire.
It's not that it's going to take a long time... it cannot do it at all. Objects can't be critted, and you are only dealing 3 damage maximum to a hardness of 5. Even if you did this to a stick (not a door or staff or even anything exceptional like an arrow) you will not be able to set it on fire.
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And the rule works great when you are trying to set adamantine doors on fire, or steel, or stone.
Which is why DM discretion is required. Rather than make a written rule about wood, they let the DM decide which materials are going to be vulnerable to any given element.
If I had to whip something up on the fly, I'd say that wood does not take half damage from fire. Given that both treants and wood golems are vulnerable to fire, this isn't much of an assumption to make.
I'd also rule that a full round application of fire from a torch deals 2d6 damage.
I realize that doesn't help you in your game, but if you aren't going to play with a DM who exercises their discretion, be prepared for a lot of these situations to crop up.
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Fires don't start instantly when you touch flame to wood. You need the right amount of Heat, Oxygen, and Fuel to get that nifty chemical reaction started. Put a pile of wood in a fire pit and hold a mtach against it and you will almost never get a fire going. You have to get the fire past the initial incipient stage before you get the towering inferno.
The same goes for the kind of brief, instantaneous touches that beating some thing with a torch or hitting something with a fireball create. It's too quick to start anything on fire. Now if I were to take said torch to a tapestry or a desk full of papers then you start to get things going. Fire in Pathfinder seems to work just about right compared to real life.
--Vrocking around the Christmas Tree
(I'd like to point out that I also completely agree with those who said that wood does not ignite as easily as one might suspect. My suggestion of not halving the damage still applies 5 hardness against 1d6 damage, which should take a bit to go up in flame.)
[I]f you briefly [touch] a wooden door over and over again [with a torch], it's going to take an awful long time to set that door on fire.It's not that it's going to take a long time... it cannot do it at all.
I meant in real life...
I thought some kinds of energy were affected less by hardness. Sonic ignores it for example. That's why the sonic bomb does 1d4 instead of 1d6 damamge per die.
I thought some kinds of energy were affected less by hardness. Sonic ignores it for example. That's why the sonic bomb does 1d4 instead of 1d6 damamge per die.
Nope that dropped out with 3.5... it's all up to the DM and specific entries now.
Same issue with alchemist fire, 1d6 can't bypass the hardness. Fire has no effect on wood.
As a DM myself... I'd allow alchemist fire to ignite pretty much any wooden or combustible object. Unlike a torch for the examples given above, alchemist fire is pretty much an accelerant in its own right.
I would allow a torch to eventually ignite a wooden door, but it could take a period of continual exposure along an edge of the door. 10 to 15 minutes of continual exposure sounds about right to ignite treated hardwood. A hardwood table might ignite easier because they might have waxed it instead to provide some proofing vs. liquids.
There are a number of modifiers that could change the outcome. Age/dryness of the wood, how the surface is treated, roughness/smoothness of the wood, etc. A untreated, rough hewn, basically splintery door would be easier ignite than a smooth/stained door.
I agree though, just beating a door with a torch is not going to be enough to ignite it and would eventually more than likely put the torch out.
Why not just add a couple of properties to give to some objects?
Flammable: an object with the flammable property ignites and burns whenever it takes some fire damage, if it does not succed in a saving throw...
Flaming: when used, an object with this property can set on fire objects or creatures that can burn, even if they do not have the flammable property...
Why not just add a couple of properties to give to some objects?
Flammable: an object with the flammable property ignites and burns whenever it takes some fire damage, if it does not succed in a saving throw...
Flaming: when used, an object with this property can set on fire objects or creatures that can burn, even if they do not have the flammable property...
Those are very abusable as written.
The game already allows for combustible items as we already know what those are in real life. Paper, hair, cloth, dry grass, and alcohol to name a few. As a formal boy scout I can tell you... it really is a B***H to get a fire going without kindling. Add in enough kerosene or lighter fluid though, and you'll have even wet logs burning in no time as the heat produced from burning that will dry out even green wet wood and ignite it.
Yeah, I think that the 1d3 fire damage is from smacking the torch against the object or creature.
If you are holding the torch against the wood for a period of time, letting the flames try and ignite it, that's a different story and can be highly dependant on the situation, and so falls well within the DM's discretion rule.
There are a couple of simple solutions to the door problem:
1) Alchemists get Disable Device . . . pick the lock.
2) If that fails get the Rogue to pick the lock . . .
3) If that fails get the Wizard or Sorcerer to cast knock on the lock . . .
4) If that fails get the Fighter or Barbarian to bash down the door . . .
Problem solved (^_^)
There are a couple of simple solutions to the door problem:
1) Alchemists get Disable Device . . . pick the lock.
2) If that fails get the Rogue to pick the lock . . .
3) If that fails get the Wizard or Sorcerer to cast knock on the lock . . .
4) If that fails get the Fighter or Barbarian to bash down the door . . .Problem solved (^_^)
Yes that would be the normal approach...
The door was just given as an example of something a torch could not burn. If I really wanted to set a door on fire I'd not be wasting my time with trying to just use a pitch torch. I'd smash a flask of lamp oil up against it followed by a alchemist fire or then the torch.
Nothing scares monsters like a pool of liquid fire pouring in under the door. >:D