Alchemist's oddball extract list

[hogarth]

Overall I like the alchemist class (from what I've seen), but the list of extracts strikes me as a little odd. Specifically I'm thinking of the restriction "the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist" -- that's fine, but some of the listed spells won't really work that way.

For instance:

• Arcane Eye doesn't really affect a person at all
  
• Eyebite that only affects yourself isn't very useful
  
• Nightmare that only affects yourself isn't very useful
  
• Sending that only affects yourself isn't very useful

Maybe it should be reworded a bit. But on the other hand, I don't find those four spells particularly alchemical at all (maybe Eyebite), so I wouldn't miss them if they were gone. I guess Nightmare and Sending could be drug-induced somehow.

The other thing to note is that the casting times for spells like Arcane Eye and Nightmare is going from 10 minutes to less than a round. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's definitely speeding things up.

[Abraham spalding]

Yeah I could really see Haste being dropped a level because of that. I mean if you aren't hitting the full party it doesn't seem worth a 3rd level extract. I'm assuming there is something here that hasn't been fully explained to us yet.

[Ben Adler]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Yeah I could really see Haste being dropped a level because of that. I mean if you aren't hitting the full party it doesn't seem worth a 3rd level extract. I'm assuming there is something here that hasn't been fully explained to us yet.

Yeah, dump it to lvl 2, especially since Haste normally has multiple targets, and Alchemists get 3rd level spells later than Wizards get 3rd level spells.

It's not like an alchemist with haste is much better anyhow, the way bombs work you still can't use two, so it devolves into +1 attack, +1 AC, and +1 attack on full attack for a 3/4 bab class.

Bout the only way it's useful is with the discovery that lets you give it to other characters, then at least you can buff the whole party using their own move actions, instead of a standard of your own.

[hogarth]

The more I think about it, the more I think that it would make sense to not list every spell on the alchemist's extract list and to instead say something like:

"Alchemists can make extracts of any spell that targets one or more creatures or with target = 'You' from the following schools: transmutation, divination, illusion, conjuration (healing), necromancy, or abjuration."

That seems much neater to me, personally. And it avoids questions like "Why do alchemists get Displacement, but not Mirror Image? And Barkskin + Statue, but not Tree Shape? And Rage but not Good Hope?"

[Ice Titan]

In my personal opinion, I think it's fairly painful that my Alchemist is a master of throwing pottery, uneven rocks, beheaded skeleton skulls and his own weaponry, but can't brew potions off of his spell list.

[hogarth]

Ice Titan wrote:

In my personal opinion, I think it's fairly painful that my Alchemist is a master of throwing pottery, uneven rocks, beheaded skeleton skulls and his own weaponry, but can't brew potions off of his spell list.

Well, he could take the feats Master Craftsman and Brew Potion, but I agree that it would make sense to get the ability for free. That doesn't really have much to do with the alchemist's extract list, though.

[MaverickWolf]

hogarth wrote:

Ice Titan wrote:

In my personal opinion, I think it's fairly painful that my Alchemist is a master of throwing pottery, uneven rocks, beheaded skeleton skulls and his own weaponry, but can't brew potions off of his spell list.

Well, he could take the feats Master Craftsman and Brew Potion, but I agree that it would make sense to get the ability for free. That doesn't really have much to do with the alchemist's extract list, though.

Actually, he can't. I thought the same, and was corrected. Master Craftsman only allows you to take Magic Arms & Armor and Wondrous Items.

[hogarth]

MaverickWolf wrote:

Actually, he can't. I thought the same, and was corrected. Master Craftsman only allows you to take Magic Arms & Armor and Wondrous Items.

Oops...I stand corrected.

[Mortagon]

hogarth wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I think that it would make sense to not list every spell on the alchemist's extract list and to instead say something like:

"Alchemists can make extracts of any spell that targets one or more creatures or with target = 'You' from the following schools: transmutation, divination, illusion, conjuration (healing), necromancy, or abjuration."

That seems much neater to me, personally. And it avoids questions like "Why do alchemists get Displacement, but not Mirror Image? And Barkskin + Statue, but not Tree Shape? And Rage but not Good Hope?"

I really, really like this idea. Allow the alchemist to have a book of formulas for the extracts he knows just like a wizards spellbook. He can use both divine and Arcane scrolls and even spellbooks to add new extracts but only if they fit the categories and he must pay to translate and scribe the extract just like a wizard adding a new spell to his spellbook.

[Sarsaparilla]

hogarth wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I think that it would make sense to not list every spell on the alchemist's extract list and to instead say something like:

"Alchemists can make extracts of any spell that targets one or more creatures or with target = 'You' from the following schools: transmutation, divination, illusion, conjuration (healing), necromancy, or abjuration."

I like this idea too. It also solves the question of what to do with spells from 3.5 and/or unofficial sourcebooks. As it stands now, there's a block of text on page 3 that states: "These new formulae can be common spells chosen from the alchemist’s formulae list, or they can be unusual spells that the alchemist has gained some understanding of through study."

...which offers the tantalizing promise of learning spells from other classes, but doesn't provide any guidelines for which spells are eligible.

[Balodek]

Do the extracts count as potions?

Specifically I'm looking at the extend potion discovery and wondering if that applies to the extracts or only to the (magic) potions that the alchemist can't create himself.

[Ben Adler]

Mortagon wrote:

hogarth wrote:

The more I think about it, the more I think that it would make sense to not list every spell on the alchemist's extract list and to instead say something like:

"Alchemists can make extracts of any spell that targets one or more creatures or with target = 'You' from the following schools: transmutation, divination, illusion, conjuration (healing), necromancy, or abjuration."

That seems much neater to me, personally. And it avoids questions like "Why do alchemists get Displacement, but not Mirror Image? And Barkskin + Statue, but not Tree Shape? And Rage but not Good Hope?"

I really, really like this idea. Allow the alchemist to have a book of formulas for the extracts he knows just like a wizards spellbook. He can use both divine and Arcane scrolls and even spellbooks to add new extracts but only if they fit the categories and he must pay to translate and scribe the extract just like a wizard adding a new spell to his spellbook.

I'd say that if you let the alchemist take any spell from certain schools then they should have a little more stringent requirements to copy it into their formula book.

Something like 1 8-hour day, or a week of 1-2hr days (essentially downtime in camp) and at the end of the week a craft (alchemy) check to create a formula replicating the spell.
Of course if it's already a formula it'd be easier.
And of course a cost associated with the attempt, something analogous to the wizards cost to scribe new spells.
There could even be an eternal alchemy lab that continuously creates reagents and means that alchemists can do their study for free and create a certain number of alchemical items/day for free.