You know what makes it even worse? My DM is hiding under the name "Kat's Eye" in that thread, check his post.
Well I'll be darned. And you wrote in that thread that your character had been reincarnated as a gnoll. I hadn't noticed. I doubt I ever READ that far into the thread!
....lots of interesting stuff....
Your stuff is interesting too. In fact, it's real food for thought.
You know what makes it even worse? My DM is hiding under the name "Kat's Eye" in that thread, check his post.
You even quoted him ;)
I actually came to a game a friend invited me to where the players decided to "help" me by pregenerating two (badly built, my god, am I the only one that reads and understands the rules?!?) female characters for me. Kindly titled "The B****" and "The Slut".
-_-
That's horrible.
There are games out there with one or more female players where they aren't singled out or teased simply for being female.
I've often, since my first Red Box D&D, played with females as players, DMs or even spectators and would not tolerate that kind of behavior with a new player.
Grr. Part of the reason why gamer chicks are so hard to find...
While there are always issues between players, I find that most of the games I've played with the ones that actually enjoyed playing went smoothly. I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences.
I generally feel out a group before I start throwing things in. But in all things that touch on emotionally or mentally sensitive issues, remember that it can affect every person at the table (including the GM). And that there are times when a player needs to remember they're separate from a character.
One example that was interesting to me: I played in a long running game in college (we played through Temple of Elemental Evil and through Scourge of the Slavelords). In the middle of SotS, I was playing an Female Elf Cleric of Hanali Celanil (the eleven goddess of love and beauty), who was also a 'patrician' cleric (the old kit for stuck up noble snobs). I decided that she would not accept ANY interaction with orcs or half-orcs (who offended her aesthetically and racially). Now, we played for a year with no problems, she was deliberately a rich jerk, but made allowances for the less attractive humans and dwarves (after all, she was also a good person at heart). But when a character died and the player brought in a half-orc, she was pissed at the rest of the party for allowing such a thing to pass. There was actually an hour or two long argument (in character) about it. I had to keep reminding the player with the half-orc that I wasn't upset about HIM, just his character.
Tempers flared (in character, but eventually spilling over), and the DM should have called a cool-off period, but it ended with my character storming off with the party's mace of disruption. I ended up making a new character (which was fine with me) and the half-orc and that character got along splendidly. But people were disturbed confronting intolerance... It was interesting to me to see how few logical in-character arguments there were to dissuade her, and how casually characters turned on a 'friend.' I did what I think my character would do, and adjusted to the new group by creating someone that would fit in.
On a similar note, in a different group we had a dwarven berserker that hated orcs, so when an orc joined the party as a follower of the paladin (the only human that ever kept his word, back when orcs were lawful), he constantly harrassed him (the NPC orc). Eventually, the harassment died off and he became the dwarf's best friend...all without anybody realizing that it was happening (very organically). One day the dwarf's player said 'Hmm. [the orc] and I seem to get along really well now...wonder how that happened.' (Also, the orc then never had to try the dwarf's gutshaker (for those of you who remember that)).
But as a DM, it's important to take into consideration what YOU can handle. We had a woman in college that wanted to run a Vampire game for us (which we thought would be fun). We're generally nice guys, but we liked action-oriented campaigns with a lot of role playing (we like the rolls and the roles), so she decided a Sabbat (the nasty vampires, think less Twilight and more Lestat) campaign would work.
What she didn't account for was that, even though I stand by the statement that me and my friends are some of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, we can let our dark sides out to play!
After two of the characters decided to (dark side in full display)
well, the GM had, well, a nervous breakdown (which I'm sure wasn't exclusively our fault (she had other issues too)) but I think she wasn't quite ready for it. Eventually, the fun of being brutal died down and we just had a really good campaign with great twists.
On the other side, sex can be fun, but usually, the camera pans up when it happens in our games. A 10 player, 4 NPC Dark Sun party was playing a very heavily modified Desert of Desolation campaign, and was about to go into the end-dungeon. The Dark Sun elf (who live for the moment) decided that he wanted to have sex a few times before he died, so with some note passing and creative timing, he ended up bedding every female in the party using the same line (We may die tomorrow, let's live tonight, sort of thing).
The girls (most of them played by actual girls, believe it or not), found out about this, and decided to take some hot, giggling revenge, by piling up on the nerdy half-elf bard. This general hilarity played much like a Shakespearean comedy of errors and a good time was had by all.
But these were all long-time groups, with people I knew well (aside from the poor Vampire GM. I like the idea of a rating system, and do something similar (though not regularly), but usually only when kids or teens join us. I guess I assume my games run between PG-13 and hard R, depending on the concept.
But, aside from some of the darker Vampire games, I try to keep the horror and sex to a minimum, to use it as a shocker when it does happen.
One final note: I think it's in the interests of good roleplaying to consider how characters react to sex, gore, violence, etc., even if you don't ever use the knowledge. Once, in an old-school 2nd edition campaign, our party opened the door and found a room hip deep in body parts and organs, my character turned away, disgusted (wouldn't you?) and threw up quietly in the corner, despite being a battle hardened warrior.
The rest of the party?
They searched for treasure.
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No, of course Aaron, I don't think anyone is really criticizing your parenting abilities. Obviously you are very attentive and try to balance things out in terms of what they get exposed to and how they process it. That's what we all do.
I was just curious if there wasn't some way you could enjoy materials that (it seems) aren't offensive to you, but yet clearly explain to your kids that these simply aren't materials for them, and that's why dad can't read to you from them. Maybe that's not easily done, though -- even the covers of a lot of Paizo stuff might lead to questions you'd prefer not to have. I also don't know your space constraints -- I've also got the luxury of having a few different rooms in the house suitable for sitting and reading in, or can ask the kids to play somewhere else in the house if I need "me" time (which is so essential to my sanity -- the best part of them getting older is that I'm finally able to let them play w/o too much supervision).
As I said, I tend to just keep my gaming materials in my home office or bedroom, and the kids know neither place is a place to be rooting around in. However, I know I've definitely had the books out at various times and (when asked what it was) said "Oh, this is a book for the game Mom and Dad play. We can play D&D with you sometime if you want, but this book isn't for kids -- I have some other D&D or monster books if you want to look at those". It's sort of a dual approach -- sure, I segregate off things that aren't appropriate materials for them, but I also want them to understand on their own that some things are inappropriate. That way, even if I leave something out, maybe all on their own they will know it is not for them. Actually, on more than one occasion, my 10 year old has done just that -- handed me a D&D book I left out and told me he knows this is supposed to be in my office.
I'm saying all of this just to illustrate my own experiences, and maybe allay some of your worries -- I think kids "get" a lot more of these nuances than we sometimes realize, and the process of parenting involves helping them grow in their own discernment and decision-making, so that as they get out into that big scary world, they've matured enough to handle it confidently.
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Hmm, parenting and adult content. That's always a sticky subject, and even though I'm not a parent by biology I do understand both sides of the issue. (For background, my wife has a daughter and I've been a step-parent at points much earlier in my life)
My thoughts (and these are MY OPINIONS... YMMV...this user does not endorse or ):
1) Children should learn about adult issues at home. From their parents. Timing is subjective and should be weighed carefully. They WILL learn, and it is best that they learn from someone who can carefully fine tune the experience to the child.
2) Children should be taught causality. Their actions have consequences.
3) Children should be treated as people. Not pets. Not inferiors. Not something to be endured. People. Now this is not to say that children can and do understand things that adults handle as a matter of course. But it is to say that they should be given the information they need to be able to make informed decisions and then given the opportunity to do so.
I had a lot more to say along these lines, and I hope that I've not stepped on any toes. This is how I feel, and I'm just glad I can share that.
I was just curious if there wasn't some way you could enjoy materials that (it seems) aren't offensive to you, but yet clearly explain to your kids that these simply aren't materials for them, and that's why dad can't read to you from them.
Good question. And you answer your own question very well...
Maybe that's not easily done, though -- even the covers of a lot of Paizo stuff might lead to questions you'd prefer not to have.
Exactly. My daughter is very observant, and she has noticed that my wife and I hide certain things from her. (Real-life things, not game-related.)
Just last week, she demanded to know what was going on. I was forced to answer "You'll learn about it when you're older."
She cried. Really. She shed real tears.
She was probably just tired. I'm sure she'll get over it. But it's just not worth having a scene like that for the sake of a GAME.
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She was probably just tired. I'm sure she'll get over it. But it's just not worth having a scene like that for the sake of a GAME.
If there's one thing I've learned about parenting, it is that the avoidance of that reaction is worth any price. And in this instance, I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with you and the actions you have chosen to take.
It is great to hear that parents are willing to do what it needed, even though that sometimes means making a sacrifice.
*applauds*
Sex is another matter. It's a natural thing, which many people feel compelled to do. I'm afraid that if my kids get too comfortable with discussing the subject, they may also get comfortable with experimenting with it, after they reach the age when they think about such things, but before they're old enough to handle them.
[threadjack]Personally, I'm not a parent, so I guess take what I am going to say with a grain of salt, as it doesn't come from my personal experience with my own kids. But it does come from some studies that I have read excerpts of, documentaries I've seen, books on sex and childhood, what I experienced in my own childhood and my friends, and what I have seen from my adult friends and their children (I plan on having kids some day, so I've always figured I should do my research on how I plan to approach the whole parenthood thing as much as I can, even though I don't see a kid for at least another 5 years).
The ones who are censored completely from sex are the ones more likely to experiment in ways that they aren't ready for. They also often grow up uncomfortable and ashamed of their bodies and uncomfortable with themselves. Also, without that comfortable grounding in sex, they often lose the inner connection that it can bring and end up using sex as a tool merely of physical pleasure rather then intimacy and exploration, which often leads short shallow relationships with what ends up being an eventual laundry list of partners.
The ones that aren't censored so much, but are merely told what their brains and development can understand (telling toddlers and such that it's a "special hug," but realizing that your average 7 year old isn't gonna buy that and is gonna want to know more, etc.) will also experiment, but usually later, and much more responsibly. They are usually more predisposed to meaningful deep relationships that last and often don't sleep with a partner as immediately as someone that was sheltered and has an "unhealthy" view of sex.
It's the whole "What do you have in your pants?" and "I wonder what that's for?" thing. If they know what the opposite gender has in their pants, and they know what adults use them for, then they're more likely to leave the experimentation until they're far more comfortable and safe. If they're ignorant, but they end up seeing something you didn't intend for them to see (which you usually have no clue, since they think you won't talk to them about it) they end up curious as to exactly what it is they saw, and end up doing things far before they're ready.
You're right, sex is natural, so personally I don't see why it should be hidden, except for (honestly useless) social sensibility. Personally I'd much rather deal with the horror of my mother's disapproval of "exposing" my children to sex then see them ignorant of what they want (and in my opinion deserve) to know. Personally I think puritanism is one of the major things wrong with our current social order.
Now I'm not trying to criticize your parenting, as the fact that you've put as much thought into it as you have tells me that you probably don't just go "NO!" and slap them on the wrist, or straight freak when you realize they got a hold of a porno somehow. I doubt that your children will end up with those same problems. Just presenting an idea on what I personally think is a healthier way to approach it.[/threadjack]
As to violence and guns and weapons:
I grew up in a very rural part of the country. We got taught firearms safety about the age of 8-10. We got taught to shoot around the age of 12.
There was an actual, honest-to-god shooting team (pistol and rifle) in my junior high and high school.
Now there isn't, because the school administrators are terrified of Columbine.
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My games tend to be open for adult situations but I don't force them unless a player specifically expresses they would like that to explore the subject.
The Ptolus setting has lots of opportunity for gritty, street level elements that can be very dark. Drugs are present and addiction is a serious concern. Some of the drugs even provide tangible rewards for using them but their drawbacks can be deadly. So it is interesting to explore those themes when appropriate.
I have had female players create characters that enjoy sex, though I am lucky to have an equal split between men and women in my group and all of has have very mature reactions about sex. More specifically we have a married couple, a woman who is currently in a strong relationship with a man not involved with the game, a man who is married to a good friend who is not involved with the game, and my partner (male) of nearly 9 years. There are so many stable relationships at the table we don't generally feel threatened with sexual overtones.
I have seen characters participate in short-term relationships, long-term relationships leading to marriage, same sex relationships, and sexual freedom at my table. All have led to great stories.
Homosexuality is specifically detailed in Ptolus and it is generally accepted by the bulk of the people in the city. I am introducing a brothel for men with men in an upcoming session. But I don't hit on the subject too much, despite our comfortable natures. Oddly, I am the one who likely feels the least comfortable as I don't want to be seen forcing the subject on others.
When it comes to sexual acts we tend to "fade to black" and move on. We don't like to actively describe sex. The same goes for torture actually.
I have addressed rape in my games and the evils it engenders. At one point, I purposefully utilized a horrible violation to motivate the characters. This was done with the knowledge of how my players would react. I would never do something like this to unsuspecting people.
Do not read if you are sensitive to sexual abuse and abuse of the reproductive process:
Other than the situation above I refuse to harm children. There might be homeless children or children from harsh homes but I refuse to go too far with abuse. I will never murder a child on screen, even then it is always a matter of accident and rarely deliberate, and I refuse to do anything concerning sexual abuse. These things hit a nerve with me and I try to avoid them at all costs. I work with children and I can't even imagine the depravity it takes to harm them. So it is generally off limits for me.
The single situation where I involved a child in jeopardy presented an opportunity for the characters to go back in time and prevent a child from being harmed by a chaos cult and, eventually, becoming a major campaign villain. By saving him and his twin they prevented a great evil from being born. The cult's intent was brainwashing in any case and did not involve violence towards these children. Just the creation of a villain due to visions and guidance from the Lords of Chaos.
We do explore family relationships in my campaigns and it is not unusual to have siblings, parents and children, and other familial bonds in the party. But I never address sexual relations between family members as that hits a sharp nerve as well. That is banned from the table. Though I do like to see the bonds of family grow strong or become strained through the course of the campaign, leading to some great character development.
Finally, drinking is an element of our games but we never dwell on it. If someone wanted to play an alcoholic during a campaign I would consider it. If it crossed too far into some of my banned topics or it became trivialized and comic I would likely work with the player to better express what they are going for with the condition. If they want it to be comic, we can do that, but then it takes on a new appearance all together.
I think the key really lies in the party composition and what they find comfortable. This includes the GM. We all have limits and I think it is important to express those limits while still providing a compelling game. Some times we just want to whack the bad guys. Other times we want to understand the villain and why he does what he does.
My games wholeheartedly embrace the idea of manifest law and chaos as well as good and evil. They are real forces that influence the world. That said, redemption is completely possible and all the more powerful since a real, tangible form has a hold on these people. Evil and chaos are a bit like addictions that can be broken with a great deal of focus. So that philosophy drives our games. It isn't a coincidence that many of us adhere to a manifest concept of good and evil in our own lives. We enjoy exploring what that means to us through the vehicle of our campaigns.
I think it all comes down to consideration. Nothing is introduced casually or half-heartedly. It must be done with purpose and concern for everyone involved.
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The city is poisoned with plague as street urchins can be seen coughing and spitting up blood as every one seems to be ill. There is a group of men wearing cloth masks loading the bloated and rotting corpses of plague victims on a wagon, one of them throws a naked baby on the top of the pile by a leg and its head falls off exploding on the filthy cobbled stones of the lane. Down an alley you see people fighting for food scraps - that might be a dead animal, though you doubt it. - Atmosphere only. They dont ever get to kill kids and take their food (or eat them for food).
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I don't deal with the situation graphically, it's more of "Make a bluff/diplomacy roll, you passed, it happens, on to the next part of the story."
If you vote for Goblins, a bonus comic strip shows MinMax smiling to a young woman, with the subtext, "D&D Rule #498: A successful diplomacy check does not automatically equal sex."
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If you vote for Goblins, a bonus comic strip shows MinMax smiling to a young woman, with the subtext, "D&D Rule #498: A successful diplomacy check does not automatically equal sex."
I don't deal with the situation graphically, it's more of "Make a bluff/diplomacy roll, you passed, it happens, on to the next part of the story."
That requires a bag of gold and negotiation :) Runs for door...
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If you vote for Goblins, a bonus comic strip shows MinMax smiling to a young woman, with the subtext, "D&D Rule #498: A successful diplomacy check does not automatically equal sex."
That's at LEAST a skill challenge.
But seriously, people in games engaging in sex with NPC's for the sake of doing it just annoy me. Now if there's backstory, then I'm completely down with that. I remember the big deal that was made when one of my PC's finally had consensual sex for the first time, and it was something that PC had to EARN.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If you vote for Goblins, a bonus comic strip shows MinMax smiling to a young woman, with the subtext, "D&D Rule #498: A successful diplomacy check does not automatically equal sex."That's at LEAST a skill challenge.
But seriously, people in games engaging in sex with NPC's for the sake of doing it just annoy me. Now if there's backstory, then I'm completely down with that. I remember the big deal that was made when one of my PC's finally had consensual sex for the first time, and it was something that PC had to EARN.
I thoguht it was a skill check, a dex check a con check (use rope optional) and an opposed CMB roll.
Fortitude saves as needed ;-)
If you vote for Goblins, a bonus comic strip shows MinMax smiling to a young woman, with the subtext, "D&D Rule #498: A successful diplomacy check does not automatically equal sex."That's at LEAST a skill challenge.
But seriously, people in games engaging in sex with NPC's for the sake of doing it just annoy me. Now if there's backstory, then I'm completely down with that. I remember the big deal that was made when one of my PC's finally had consensual sex for the first time, and it was something that PC had to EARN.
I thoguht it was a skill check, a dex check a con check (use rope optional) and an opposed CMB roll.
Fortitude saves as needed ;-)
My group is perfectly happy with the G/PG rated game. My blog has been called Disney-esque and I don't mind at all. It is a very "The Hobbit" meets Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser meets Zothique as if Lord Dunsany was editing the latter two to keep them in a Disney vein.
We grew out of all the adult themes in our early twenties. Now we enjoy getting back to the innocent (except for the slaying of any monster within eyesight) path.
Plus, it is nice to feel comfortable around one player's two pre-teen children, they can approach the table and watch the game at any time (and they often do) without us losing our flow. However, we retain this style of play even without children present.
But seriously, people in games engaging in sex with NPC's for the sake of doing it just annoy me. Now if there's backstory, then I'm completely down with that. I remember the big deal that was made when one of my PC's finally had consensual sex for the first time, and it was something that PC had to EARN.
Except... over the course of even a level 1 adventure, the PC pretty much earns sex a dozen times over. The bar isn't really that high. Heck, five gold could probably afford a prostitute in the nobles' district. It is the oldest profession for a reason, after all.
Just going down the line, DM: "You return to town and collect your reward. What do you do?" Mage: "I go to the library and study new spells." Priest: "I report our findings to the Pious Council of Gloweyness." Warrior: "I visit my parents' grave and recount the tales of my adventures." Rogue: "I spend my earnings on ale and whores." All are appropriate, all make sense, all are completely valid.
Even with things like seducing the barmaid, if you and three friends manage to go out and slaughter an entire goblin tribe and save the town, that earns you some renown. The characters are heroes, and it's perfectly valid that the barmaid would take notice. Women sleep with guys for a lot less reason than, "You saved my home and my family," after all. No need to let it get under your skin.
But the notion of, 'the PCs should earn this, that, and the other,' when they go around earning these things a hundred times over in every adventure is rather silly.
But the notion of, 'the PCs should earn this, that, and the other,' when they go around earning these things a hundred times over in every adventure is rather silly.
I would think in a world where adventurers are common the bar would be higher.
I would think in a world where adventurers are common the bar would be higher.
Why? Soldiers going off to war were extremely common in WW2. There were still plenty of 'victory girls.' And I assure you, in any era, there will always be large numbers of women who don't have very high standards. Sex isn't so rare or hard to come by as folks seem to think it.
Sex isn't so rare or hard to come by as folks seem to think it.
Personal experience of many of the posters notwithstanding? :) (Cue rimshot).
(OK, I said rimshot...bah. Get your minds back up to the gutter.)
Descriptively, I usually run somewhere around the low end of an R rating. In general, 'mature' mature is completely fine and plain old disgusting or offensive for shock value or crassness tends to cross the line and gets locked down. Still, that R rating gives some leeway with that.
There are certain issues which have to be dealt with delicately or avoided too since they could easily cross the line into player personal issues. The idea of tossing rape into a game as an adventure background detail when there might be a rape victim sitting around the table seems pretty disgusting and hard to justify.
I also tend to take the stance that a character is the player's domain, so I don't leave any scars or traumas unless a player wants to extract that from an event. Along with that, I'll let the individual players determine what level of 'adult' they want to experience and run on the low end generally and save the more mature stuff for individual or split sessions.
Also, I've run into a few GMs who think describing a PC getting mindraped or raped or impregnated by something or gender-switched and made the object of abuse is edgy and adult, but I think that's way out of line. It's pretty sexist to rate any sort of emasculation as the worst level of punishment a GM can deal out to a character and use it as a slap on the wrist for the player. They usually also consider that sort of thing a matter of course for a woman playing a female character. Luckily, this has just been a few GMs and they're easily avoided.
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One of the characters at my table just had a miscarriage last night as a result of being poisoned by a naga.
I'm the DM. The character was my wife's. As she's the mother of two children she adores and we want to have another child in the not-too-distant future, I was very leery of going down this road. Still, it seemed the plot line would be improved and certain elements as yet unrevealed to the players be emphasized if I did this.
I pulled her aside to the other room, and explained things. She had been suspecting for quite a while that her character was pregnant. To my surprise, she was very matter-of-fact about it and said "oh, I was going to have my character get an abortion anyway". Wow.
After that, she went back to the gaming table, pulled our friend aside (he plays her husband in the game) and told him separately about the incident. His response was to go bugger-nuts on killing the next two nagas they met, just saying to another player "I've got a bit of a score to settle her, I say we kill them all".
So I guess that's some mature issues there. Somehow for us, it worked. It even led to a discussion this morning with my wife on why her character never wants to be a parent, and how frustrated she is that her in-game husband has adopted two children they rescued a few sessions ago. What started as a joking kind of in-game marriage is shaping up to be an interesting dynamic. All in all, I'm glad we've been able to weave these elements in.
First off, gender-equality is a default assumption within nearly all currently supported settings with regards to the worlds on the whole (though there are major exceptions within the worlds themselves, like Llolthite drow, but still the overall world assumption is gender-equality). It's even a default assumption within most of the systems themselves. To deviate from that requires advanced notice on the matter.
But more importantly, oftentimes, it's not at all a setting aspect. There are a frighteningly large number of guys out there who think, "Well, that's just what happens to hot girls," when a female character gets raped. They have the mindset that this is what's supposed to happen to female characters, just as a matter of course. Some don't even have any notion that a woman can successfully resist, as one particularly short-lived DM showed when he had my 18-strength warrior overpowered and subsequently raped by some schmuck off the street. No rolls or anything.
Some don't even have any notion that a woman can successfully resist, as one particularly short-lived DM showed when he had my 18-strength warrior overpowered and subsequently raped by some schmuck off the street. No rolls or anything.
Yeah, that's just bad DMing.
Some don't even have any notion that a woman can successfully resist, as one particularly short-lived DM showed when he had my 18-strength warrior overpowered and subsequently raped by some schmuck off the street. No rolls or anything.Yeah, that's just bad DMing.
And it is just wrong anyway, not to mention a sign of immaturity and really twisted sexual fantasies - it is called fantasy roleplaying, but this DM had it all wrong...
Stefan
Oh, it was absolutely miserable DMing, and I didn't let the DM get away with it (I made him wind back, give me my rolls, which I won, and followed up by explicit sodomy for lethal damage until the guy was dead), but the, 'that's just what happens to hot girls,' mindset is far too common. Just folks who accept that as a fact of the universe. And it's creepy.
Some don't even have any notion that a woman can successfully resist, as one particularly short-lived DM showed when he had my 18-strength warrior overpowered and subsequently raped by some schmuck off the street. No rolls or anything.Yeah, that's just bad DMing.
Viletta did say he was short-lived . . .
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When sex and violence are done right, they are done rarely, and they balance against thier implications and purposes. Humanity laughs because of incongruency, and sex/violence in stories/rpg is perfect for maximum intensity so long as the orchestra isn't "blowing" double-forte all night long.
Adult themes become more artistic and tactfully done when they are purposeful and tastefully done. Otherwise, adult themes become gratuitous and appear as shallow crowd-pleasers that leave a "bad-taste" in the audience's mouth instead.
Inuendo is fun regularly, but serious adult themes should contain a story purpose, or a story outcome to be worth including. Otherwise, a tactful GM will just say, "... and we know the rest," and move on.
Even if the players want it more intense, don't give it to them. Like sex, stories good should have an ascending series of build-ups prior to the "climax."
The garbage books that describe unseen bedroom servant spells or magic dildos +5, are unnecessary. They're true garbage.
On one final personal note, I'm not sure there is any descriptive or story value in the depiction of the more horrible sexual acts of violance on women nor men. In fact, if a campaign has degenerated this far, its probably incapable of ever recovering, and the end is near. That is, like an orchestra's loudest blast, once the GM has chosen to "blow his wad" he will never recover the story. Good gaming, like good drama, is something that is more akin to the tea kettle that wants to boil and whistle, but never does. Suspense comes from this, and there is sometimes more intensity in a whisper or what is not said than things that are explicit.
My 2 token cp on that subject...
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When sex and violence are done right, they are done rarely, and they balance against thier implications and purposes. Humanity laughs because of incongruency, and sex/violence in stories/rpg is perfect for maximum intensity so long as the orchestra isn't "blowing" double-forte all night long.
Adult themes become more artistic and tactfully done when they are purposeful and tastefully done. Otherwise, adult themes become gratuitous and appear as shallow crowd-pleasers that leave a "bad-taste" in the audience's mouth instead.
Inuendo is fun regularly, but serious adult themes should contain a story purpose, or a story outcome to be worth including. Otherwise, a tactful GM will just say, "... and we know the rest," and move on.
Even if the players want it more intense, don't give it to them. Like sex, stories good should have an ascending series of build-ups prior to the "climax."
The garbage books that describe unseen bedroom servant spells or magic dildos +5, are unnecessary. They're true garbage.
On one final personal note, I'm not sure there is any descriptive or story value in the depiction of the more horrible sexual acts of violance on women nor men. In fact, if a campaign has degenerated this far, its probably incapable of ever recovering, and the end is near. That is, like an orchestra's loudest blast, once the GM has chosen to "blow his wad" he will never recover the story. Good gaming, like good drama, is something that is more akin to the tea kettle that wants to boil and whistle, but never does. Suspense comes from this, and there is sometimes more intensity in a whisper or what is not said than things that are explicit.
My 2 token cp on that subject...
Best. Response. Yet.
Very well said and greatly appreciated. I wish I were nearly so eloquent.
Michael Suzio, that's a great example of the sort of player/GM discussion and trust and personal knowledge I think is required for that sort of content. It's hard to say what maturity of content is allowed or not allowed by a rule of black and white margin just like there are players who can maturely play an 'over-powered' character or ability and some will be as disruptive and childish as they are allowed. It's prolly more about knowing the player and the group involved and what each part can bring to the table than anything else. I'd, personally, rather an idea like that start on the player's end than my end, but I'm more an entertainer or host style of GM than a storyteller, so I'm always pretty leery about imposing lasting effects on a PC.
kyrt-ryder, you make a good point in that misogyny is often a very severe cultural strain and certain settings can have a justification in trying to reflect that. However, in the context of a game, a female character facing those scenarios will face a severe disadvantage compared male characters and should have something else to compensate for that extra challenge. A female player is also completely justified in having no desire to play in a setting like that and as a result, you have some de facto discrimination going on even if that was never the setting's original intention. Not saying misogyny in a historically accurate setting is the worst thing in the world, but it comes with a lot of caveats that are becoming harder to work around with the hobby's current and changing demographics. I'm not a fan of political correctness or changing something to avoid hurt feelings or appeal to the lowest common denominator, but you have to weigh the balance of the purity of message against what sort of messages that accuracy will send on the side and decide whether or not it's really worth it.
Viletta Vadim, what you said about people who think things like that are a matter of course for female characters is exactly what I was trying to say, but you put it much better. In a lot of games, rape is a joke or a slap on the wrist or a matter of fact background detail and I think it's a lot more prevalent than many people realize.
Pax Veritas, you make great points too, but I think a certain level and pacing of crassness or toilet humour can be enjoyable as well. It's rare to see it done well and all to easy to do it cheaply, but it can be done. More Rowan Atkinson or Richard Pryor than Dane Cook.
Just on a tangent from there, I often name mooks that the PCs will easily dispatch after annoying public figures. "Okay, Orvarg, your Dwarven Thrower does 23 damage, and kills Dane Cook #19. Ian, you got a critical with your morning star and do 19 points to K-Fed #43."
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The last time i ran into a GM like that was around 2003, went to a game store for a pickup game during the week. In the second game session at a inn my character was attacked behind and knocked out. When she woke up naked and bruised in her room it was obvious what happened. The next game day she had to eat twice as much. Cause you know the day after women are pregnant we eat twice as much as normal *rolls eyes*.
Needless to say that was my last time at that game table I just got up and left during the game. Of course that was the last time I ever did a pickup game too, unless I know the GM already and some of the players.
I don't have a problem with sexism in a setting or rape happening etc. But it should be handled maturely and should never happen to a PC unless they players know in advance it can happen and then give them a chance to avoid it.
Sexism can work, but IF it does then males should not consider women a threat and should over look them often and or under estimate them. So in such a setting yeah the women have a disadvantage in how they are treated but also end up with a advantage. Then I think it is ok.
Things like that are a problem when they are poorly done, handled like a joke or not a big deal and all negative. I mean who would want to play a race or class that was gimped from the start with no offsetting bonus?
anyways done with my little rant.
I just have to say, what the *expletive deleted* is wrong with these guys? I'd have probably left a game that was being run like that.
If rape has to be present, it's just as much a threat when a PC is forced to witness it (and be helpless to stop it), rather than be victimized by it. In my games the PCs are heroes, and should work to stop the rape, regardless of whether it's perpetrated on a stranger or one of their own.
I think it bears mentioning that I play in a group of 5 other guys, and we're all late 30's - early 40's. The game is a form of escapism for us, and none of us are so hard up that we need to have sex played out for us. Beating the hell out of evil critters, on the other hand, is something we can't get enough of.
Dark_Mistress, it's a shame that event turned you off to playing with strangers, but I can't say I blame you. There's a lot of examples like that in this thread where one person's idea of how they want to play can ruin a whole sector of the hobby for someone else.
As long as the boundaries are laid out on the table before-hand, I like your idea on playing up the other side of sexism too. That could actually give motivation to some guys playing female characters to be truer to the source material.
Talonne Hauk, I have to agree. Even if it's not directly affecting a player, just casually throwing rape in there as a background prop or plot device is pretty bad too and if a GM just throws rape in there with no way to stop it, I have to seriously question how they actually feel about it and why they think a table full of people wants to sit there and hear about it.
Sorry if it seems like I'm trying to put male gamers on the spot. I haven't experienced this with female gamers, but some female authors are capable of marginalising the seriousness of sexism and rape too. I've read victims stoically enduring a brutal rape and not fighting back used as an asinine metaphor, rape victims falling in love with their attackers and about a dozen shojo manga where teenage girls are nearly raped, but then they become sympathetic to their attackers and realize he was just 'lashing out'. You also see a lot of male characters in shojo threatening to rape the heroine as a way of teaching her some stupid lesson too, usually about how much weaker women are than men. Note to Comic Fan parents with manga-loving daughters: give a couple of those volumes a quick read-through, there's a few series that read worse than some of the nastier gaming experiences that have been shared.
Sorry to get off-topic there, but I thought the examples fit.
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Too darn many posts to read them all. :) So just dropping a note on how I handle the topic at hand.
First all of my games never shy away from crossing into more adult themes. I have found that most of my players enjoy the edginess and nitty gritty that can result.
I create BBEGs that fully embrace their nastiness. Murder and rape can be daily events for my evil bad guys. It truly makes them vile and hated beyond belief by the PCs.
I encourage relationships between characters and NPCs, and so far no one has endeavored to pursue relationships between PCs. I tend to set up sex scenes and then cut away just as the XXX action is about to take place. Imagination is better suited to that part of the story.
Drugs and alcohol feature prominently in the stories when appropriate, usually for characterization or plot advancement.
Violence has repercussions. PCs who kill the guards to get into the museum to steal an artifact will find the story in a local paper, describing the murder of the guards, mention of the family left behind and funeral plans. Hard to think of your character as a hero when you realize he is really a murderer and thief.
Slavery is another topic that comes up quite often.
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Dark_Mistress, it's a shame that event turned you off to playing with strangers, but I can't say I blame you. There's a lot of examples like that in this thread where one person's idea of how they want to play can ruin a whole sector of the hobby for someone else.
As long as the boundaries are laid out on the table before-hand, I like your idea on playing up the other side of sexism too. That could actually give motivation to some guys playing female characters to be truer to the source material.
Oh it wasn't just that one event, that was just the final straw so to speak. I have even went so far as to nearly give up gaming than look for a new group when my old group a few years broke up and I didn't play for over a year. Not that all groups are bad or all guys. Most guys are fine, but it only takes one at a table to make it a bad experience.
But we are starting to take the thread off topic really on what it was meant to be.
As for the other, well glad you liked it. I have run games where sexism was common and women was treated that way but I always played up the other side of it too and I have had guys sometimes play females rogues to take advantage of that fact too. Even had a few of them make comments about how playing the roll and being treated a certain way based on gender made them really think about RL stuff that they normally took forgranted in the past.
Not that I try to make girl power/rights a focus of my games. Personally i think most anything regardless of how adult or dark or what have you. Can be fun IF everyone knows going in what will be going on, it is handled in a mature respectively way and not over done. Like any spice it needs to have just the right amount of it added, to enhance the flavor of the meal. So to speak.
Currently I run a game with just my fiance (we just moved to her hometown with her parents and have yet to meet other gamers). Since its just us, we tend to have PG13-Rated games, with a lot of adult themes. For us, its just what we like. We enjoy watching the Tudors, we enjoy George RR Martin's Fire and Ice, etc. To us, we're both adults and enjoy adult themes.
As far as I'm concerned, all it really comes down to is the players and the GM. I've heard/been in games where it got adult between characters, usually as a result of real-life relationships between the players (past/present sorta of things). I've also been in some very adult situation in games, such as a Vampire game where someone was kidnapping kids and pretty much torturing them.
My fiance has always enjoyed the adult aspects. To her, its boring to be PG, hell even PG13. She makes lots of characters with interesting backgrounds. Her favorite female rogue pretty much got raped and tortured during a failed and botch Thieves' Guild test. She also has had a female cleric of a sun god pretty much walk out at sunrise stark naked to get do her meditation. Another cleric she created is male and comes from a warrior culture where homosexuality is encouraged, and that said cleric lost his lover to an ambush.
Again, it all comes down to players and GMs to what is comfortable. To me, once we get more players involved, I as the GM will have to figure out the comfort level of the players involved. My player, my fiance, handles a lot that is adult. Slavery, sexuality, rape, torture, etc.
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Currently I run a game with just my fiance (we just moved to her hometown with her parents and have yet to meet other gamers). Since its just us, we tend to have PG13-Rated games, with a lot of adult themes. For us, its just what we like. We enjoy watching the Tudors, we enjoy George RR Martin's Fire and Ice, etc. To us, we're both adults and enjoy adult themes.
Oh yeah those one on one games can work well, when you are your real life mate both play. Hell i have played in a few that went to ... aahhemm live action RPing shall we say of a adult nature. :)
The garbage books that describe unseen bedroom servant spells or magic dildos +5, are unnecessary. They're true garbage.
I disagree. I wouldn't say they were garbage, just for a very, VERY, niche audience. My wife and I have gotten some use out of the Book of Erotic Fantasy and I can say that it is very well written, containing details that aren't necessarily intended for most games, but might very well be reflective of the nature of some characters.
If that is the book you are referring to, then to call it "garbage" is a very ignorant statement. If you don't feel it's for you or works in your games, then it was not intended for you. There are some badly written books that go for the "cheap thrills" type writing, but I can honestly say that book in particular is very maturely written, and handles many more topics than just bedroom servants and dildos. It handles race interbreeding and reproduction, in-game relationships outside of the bedroom, etc.
A book isn't "garbage" simply because you aren't a fan of the subject matter.
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In my experience sexual encounters always seemed to take a more humorous track than anything else. It's hard to keep a straight face when you're trying to talk sexy (in character!) to fat guy wearing a "Han Shot First" t-shirt.
But if you want to read some really far out material, old "Black Dog" stuff from White Wolf is it. I have never in my life had a gag reflex until I read "Clan Book: Bali".
The old Black Dog stuff was pretty good. Some of the modern day Vampire stuff was pretty graphic. I still remember reading Eternal Hearts, that was one way White Wolf didn't need to go. I wasn't offended, but it did takeaway something from the fine products they had produced in the past.
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One thing to remember though Laddie, is that some of that stuff (the emasculation being considered a massive punishment, and tendency for those things to be considered 'matter of course' with females is often a setting issue.
Heck, in Medieval and early Renaissance Europe that was exactly how things sat. Very dark, very gritty, very unfortunate.
I'm not saying such things necessarily should be in the game but you have to keep in mind various settings are designed for different purposes.
I don't have a huge problem with such things if I know beforehand. If I'm informed of a setting's quirks I can decide before I join if I trust the DM and other players enough to join in a game where my character will be discriminated against.
But another thing to keep in mind in such "realistic" settings is there's much more to it than gender inequality. There's class inquality, different justice systems dependent on what your station was in society. Is everyone in the group noble? Are the PCs obviously considered mere chattel by the nobles and thrown in prison and tortured if they inadvertently insult the wrong person?
Also, do these class systems make sense in the world? Low magic, probably. ONly those with magic might be considered a special case. If everybody and their uncle might have some magical power, though, the system is going to work out very differently - the soldiers and peasants have to have a reason they listen to that fop, whether it's because he's got power in himself or he's protected for some reason by those who do.
I'm unfamiliar with Warhammer, but our DM brought us into a game in this world. Gender indequality hasn't come up much, but class issues definitely have. One character was nearly arrested for interrupting some pompous court functionary, and we had a run in with some idiotic young noble fops that felt perfectly okay with spitting on us and insulting us because they were backed up by a full company of house guards.
I guess I"m trying to say warning players ahead of time clearly is good, but it's also good to look at your default assumptions and see if they're really fair.