Tome of Battle - Shadowblade feat:
Add Dex to dmg on all ShadowHand weapons - shortsword, unarmed strike etc.
And it's not instead of, but in addition to str dmg.
I had to look this up just awhile ago
two easy options for this I know of
Class method
Champion of Corellon Larethian - Races of the Wild
level two grants dex as bonus precision damage
- needs mounted combat and heavy armor as well as being elf/half elf as well as another I don't remember so maybe not the most practical for all builds
Dervish Dance
dex instead of strength with scimitar
check out The Archives of Nethys
Note that the two abilities should stack
For added goodness I found an update to the old x to y stat list that was on WotC at gianttip (order of the stick anyone? YES)
X to Y stat by Person Man
There was a book put out by another company that did real good swashbuckling settings. There was a feat called Extra Finesse that had Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite and you could add you dexterity modifier to damage for light weapons instead of your strength modifier.
Creative Director
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I'm testing out a feat like this in the Serpent's Skull campaign I'm running every other Saturday; it's based somewhat on the Dervish Dance feat from the Osirion companion (which is another feat that does this effect).
Here's the feat, if anyone's interested in trying it out as well. Should be easy to adapt it more to be a specific weapon other than the rapier if you want.
You have turned your speed into power, and your knowledge of where vital organs are located combined with your deft aim allows you to strike these key points with ease.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Heal 2 ranks, proficient with rapier
Benefit: When wielding a rapier with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You also gain a +2 bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits with a rapier. The rapier must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
I'm testing out a feat like this in the Serpent's Skull campaign I'm running every other Saturday; it's based somewhat on the Dervish Dance feat from the Osirion companion (which is another feat that does this effect).
Here's the feat, if anyone's interested in trying it out as well. Should be easy to adapt it more to be a specific weapon other than the rapier if you want.
You have turned your speed into power, and your knowledge of where vital organs are located combined with your deft aim allows you to strike these key points with ease.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Heal 2 ranks, proficient with rapier
Benefit: When wielding a rapier with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You also gain a +2 bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits with a rapier. The rapier must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
The Tiefling rogue in my FR campaign would most likely trade his left one for access to this feat. Seems a bit high of a payout for such low requisites, on the face of it, not to mention it turns Str into the ultimate rogue dump stat. But not having playtested it myself I'll just shut my big yap :)
Zo
I can't imagine a Duelist (or Bladesinger or spring attacking Rogue)who wouldn't take it. I agree at first glance it looks overpowered, but it's very specific to: a) one particular weapon;
b) one particular style of fighting (one handed weapon only)
but again, i can't imagine a Duelist not taking it.
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Creative Director
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The Tiefling rogue in my FR campaign would most likely trade his left one for access to this feat. Seems a bit high of a payout for such low requisites, on the face of it, not to mention it turns Str into the ultimate rogue dump stat. But not having playtested it myself I'll just shut my big yap :)
Zo
One of the things I've more or less come to terms with for this feat is that I'm actually quite okay with Strength being a dump stat for rogues. After all... for a rogue, there IS no really obvious dump stat; they need Charisma for a lot of skills, Wisdom for just as many skills and to bolster a poor save, Intelligence for more skill ranks, Constitution (since EVERYONE needs Con), Dexterity for just as many MORE skills and to help their AC and Initiative... Strength as a dump stat seems fine with me, to be honest. Especially if a rogue is willing to spend two feats replacing it and 2 skill ranks on a skill that's relatively out of his class concentration.
The result? A lithe, fast, stabby character who does damage not because of brute force but because of precise skill. I think I'm probably okay with that.
Especially since the rogue still doesn't have the paladin's high HP or high AC; this feat might let him get his base damage up on par with the paladin (smite evil and sneak attack notwithstanding), but he's still not gonna last as long with fewer HP and lower AC.
I've seen the feat in play 2 sessions so far, and it certainly doesn't FEEL overpowered. The rogue isn't dominating combat, and he's been knocked down to negatives once or twice a session anyway.
And as for the duelist... having played one, I think that they're a bit TOO narrowly focused. They're melee characters, but it's hard for them to get their damage up there and hard to get a high AC... again, because they don't really have an obvious dump stat.
Of course, the player who's using the feat is more or less the reverse of a number-cruncher/optimizer. He's REALLY heavy into the roleplaying side of things, and so I'm also kind of okay giving him access to a cool feat like this because I don't feel like he's trying to break things. More like he's trying to stay relevant with a few other super-optimizers in the group.
Your Mileage May Vary, of course.
Agreed. It's not like the rogue's trying to get 5+ sneak attacks a round or anything (i'm looking at you thri-kreen rogue). An extra say, 5-10 pts dmg for one attack is definitely not overpowered.
My experience with duelists (and one weapon rogues) is that it's usually a rping venture, rather than breaking the books.
Of course, the player who's using the feat is more or less the reverse of a number-cruncher/optimizer. He's REALLY heavy into the roleplaying side of things,...
Being a DM that values in-game experience over the number cruncher approach, I can certainly agree that allowing a rogue (or rogue-like) character to take 2 feats to improve their combat abilities will help free up other feats for characterization purposes (I'd love to see a player other than my wife take Skill Focus voluntarily, for example). I also think Weapon Finesse should have been the intro feat of a tree in the same vein as Power Attack. The player in me loves the notion of relying solely on Dex, but the balance-fascist in me is concerned about power creep and min/maxers taking advantage.
I thought for awhile about how to mitigate the min/max aspects of the feat and wrote some things down in this post, but I erased them because I don't want to sound like I'm against the feat as is. I am definitely interested in hearing more about playtest experiences if possible.
Zo
This feat is from the Midnight world for D&D 3.5.The book in question is Steel And Shadow.
I am guessing this is kind of what you are looking for.
Drive It Deep [General]
You learn to put all your power behind your attacks, even with small weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: This feat works just like Power Attack, except that it allows you to add the number subtracted from your melee attack rolls to the damage dealt by light or one-handed weapons, including both ends of a double weapon. This feat cannot be used to increase the damage dealt by two-handed weapons. This feat cannot be used in combination with
Power Attack, nor does it allow the character to take feats that have Power Attack as a prerequisite.
This feat is from the Midnight world for D&D 3.5.The book in question is Steel And Shadow.
I am guessing this is kind of what you are looking for.Drive It Deep [General]
You learn to put all your power behind your attacks, even with small weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: This feat works just like Power Attack, except that it allows you to add the number subtracted from your melee attack rolls to the damage dealt by light or one-handed weapons, including both ends of a double weapon. This feat cannot be used to increase the damage dealt by two-handed weapons. This feat cannot be used in combination with
Power Attack, nor does it allow the character to take feats that have Power Attack as a prerequisite.
Yeah, things like that, composing a finesse-y feat tree that serves as a complement to the more brutal power attack tree. Small ball vs. swinging for the bleachers. Good stuff.
Zo
This feat is from the Midnight world for D&D 3.5.The book in question is Steel And Shadow.
I am guessing this is kind of what you are looking for.Drive It Deep [General]
You learn to put all your power behind your attacks, even with small weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: This feat works just like Power Attack, except that it allows you to add the number subtracted from your melee attack rolls to the damage dealt by light or one-handed weapons, including both ends of a double weapon. This feat cannot be used to increase the damage dealt by two-handed weapons. This feat cannot be used in combination with
Power Attack, nor does it allow the character to take feats that have Power Attack as a prerequisite.
Power Attack already allows you to use it with light, one handed weapons now. So this feat is useless.
I think JJ's feat is good, but I dislike feats that are made for only one kind of weapon, unless there are similar feats to ALL weapons.
I play a rogue today that is on the path of the assasin, and I don't use a rapier for RP reasons and because they are nor "hideable". I prefer the short sword and the dagger(reminds me of second edition). I would like to see a feat like that for him. But I daresay it would be too powerful using it with 2 weapons, and there is really no reason not too, except for balance purposes.
If someone could back me up on something like, half your dex mod on damage I would apreciate it.
If you're using shortswords and daggers just take Shadowblade (ToB).
Add Dex and Str dmg.
If you're using shortswords and daggers just take Shadowblade (ToB).
Add Dex and Str dmg.
That's a silly feat dude, it's way to much.
Power Attack already allows you to use it with light, one handed weapons now. So this feat is useless.This feat is from the Midnight world for D&D 3.5.The book in question is Steel And Shadow.
I am guessing this is kind of what you are looking for.Drive It Deep [General]
You learn to put all your power behind your attacks, even with small weapons.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: This feat works just like Power Attack, except that it allows you to add the number subtracted from your melee attack rolls to the damage dealt by light or one-handed weapons, including both ends of a double weapon. This feat cannot be used to increase the damage dealt by two-handed weapons. This feat cannot be used in combination with
Power Attack, nor does it allow the character to take feats that have Power Attack as a prerequisite.
Well, nearly, but notice no Str requirement. So it might be good as part of a Finesse feat tree.
Zo
You have turned your speed into power, and your knowledge of where vital organs are located combined with your deft aim allows you to strike these key points with ease.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Heal 2 ranks, proficient with rapier
Benefit: When wielding a rapier with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You also gain a +2 bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits with a rapier. The rapier must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
I think JJ's feat is good, but I dislike feats that are made for only one kind of weapon, unless there are similar feats to ALL weapons.
I play a rogue today that is on the path of the assasin, and I don't use a rapier for RP reasons and because they are nor "hideable". I prefer the short sword and the dagger(reminds me of second edition). I would like to see a feat like that for him. But I daresay it would be too powerful using it with 2 weapons, and there is really no reason not too, except for balance purposes.
If someone could back me up on something like, half your dex mod on damage I would apreciate it.
Maybe instead of rapier only, having weapon focus with a piercing weapon is required instead.
I can't imagine a Duelist (or Bladesinger or spring attacking Rogue)who wouldn't take it. I agree at first glance it looks overpowered, but it's very specific to: a) one particular weapon;
b) one particular style of fighting (one handed weapon only)but again, i can't imagine a Duelist not taking it.
I don't like that it's weapon specific. If the feat needs to be nerfed for balance, there must be a better way. (It's not a nerf anyway if you were already going to use that weapon.) Making it weapon specific is bad for a few reasons:
- It's not consistent with other feats in the core rulebook. I can think of feats that can be taken multiple times, each time for a different group of weapons, but none that work only with a particular weapon.
- It encourages feat proliferation, because soon everyone will want a feat specific to their favorite weapon.
- The feat covers less territory and is less likely to work with your character concept. Why wouldn't it work with a dagger?
I also don't like that it requires 2 ranks of Heal. Rogue sneak attack damage relies on knowing your opponent's anatomy and knowing where to strike, but it doesn't require ranks in Heal. I guess the requirement fits well with the name "Surgical Strike" but I don't like the name either. I'd rather it be named something that sounds right with more of the character concepts likely to use it, like Precision Strike (but that's bad too because we already have "Vital Strike"). I do like the good intention of putting an unpopular skill to work in an unexpected way, but in that case I'd prefer a feat that awards bonus damage for ranks of Heal in a way that scales with your level of investment in the skill. (Bad Medicine? Diagnose Weakness?)
I also think there needs to be a way for low strength characters to do more damage so they are not automatically useless in melee combat (especially against damage reduction). Feats that do this seem good for the game.
there's a feat like this in Seventh Sea, somewhere. I don't own it, so that's all the help I can give.
This seems to be something that a lot of folks are interested in.
there are probably more, too...
The Dex to weapon damage thread particularly goes over a lot of the fears concerning game balance with a feat like this.
I like the dervish dance feat, which would work well for duelists, but won't help monks or rogues. Adapting the feat to other weapons helps for other classes (as was done with surgical strike). I used a more permissive homebrew feat (one which allows dexterity to replace strength for melee weapon damage for any weapon, with the only prerequisite being weapon finesse, and the only restriction being no two-weapon fighting). It really didn't unbalance things in my experience, just gave a different style of character, which was better defensively but weaker offensively than existing strength based melee builds (taking into account lost feats) or archery builds.
I really don't think these kinds of feats are overpowered or unbalanced, but they do need some limits (two weapon fighting being the main offender). high strength characters still have the easiest time of things in combat and come out several feats ahead.
2 Weapon fighting gets nasty if not well thought, concur. That's why I was saying we should make something like Half Dex modifier. Works good for 2 weapon fighters.
I introduced the following to my campaign world a couple months ago.
Weapon Celerity
Prerequisites: weapon finesse, base attack +1
When weilding a finessable weapon you may add your Dexterity modifier to damage instead of your Strength modifier. This counts as precision damage. When weilding a finessable weapon in one hand with nothing in your other hand add 1 1/2 times your Dexterity modifier to damage instead. When wielding a finessable weapon in your off hand only add 1/2 your Dexterity modifier to damage in place of Strength.
Several of my players have characters with this feat. An agent (homebrew class), a monk, a rogue and a goblin druid. The monk is the most broken because she weilds a singham in one hand and then flurries, which works as written and hasn't been unbalencing so far. The goblin druid has it so he can be effective in animal form and the other two characters don't use the power attack tree at all. The druid
is also in a different party than the other three.
My assessment so far has been this. I don't mind the monk being able to deal a lot of damage. She doesn't compare to a similar character with power attack, but she does hit more. The rogue and agent are less likely to put themselves into flank when it's a huge risk. Finally, the Druid still hasn't waded into melée yet relying on his stegosaurus for that.
As a preliminary playtest I'd say the feat is a success. I invite anyone to use it, steal it and/or critique it.
There was a book put out by another company that did real good swashbuckling settings. There was a feat called Extra Finesse that had Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite and you could add you dexterity modifier to damage for light weapons instead of your strength modifier.
there's a feat like this in Seventh Sea, somewhere. I don't own it, so that's all the help I can give.
Yep. Extra Finesse is in AEG's "Swashbuckling Adventures" rulebook, which is the d20 version of their 7th Sea campaign setting/game.
Extra Finesse requires Weapon Finesse and allows you to replace your Str bonus with your Dex bonus to damage when attacking with a "small or fencing blade that you use with the Weapon Finesse feat". It's a 3.0 book, so just replace that with "light weapon, rapier, or other weapon you use Weapon Finesse with" or something along those lines.
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@Hexcaliber- For the monk, I would personally limit him to only x1 dex modifier for damage, since when a monk normally flurries he always gets x1 str mod. But that's just me. Otherwise, I actually love the feat, and you don't have to dip into Martial Maneuvers from Bo9S to qualify for it (which is the hardest part about getting the feat from said book approved by a DM).
@Xum- I don't really like the idea of half your Dex mod to damage, because even when your dex is insanely high (22-26) it's only +3 or +4 damage. Granted, it would be 3 or 4 more damage than you would normally have gotten, and it is more than weapon specialization, but even with the full bonus to damage they will be getting less than a str-based fighter because of bigger weapons, power attack, and such.
That's a silly feat dude, it's way to much.If you're using shortswords and daggers just take Shadowblade (ToB).
Add Dex and Str dmg.
Nah man, totally balanced. You're restricted to what weapons you can use (granted short swords are usually staple for rogues) and only if you're in a Shadowhand stance.
This seems to be something that a lot of folks are interested in.
I'm glad to hear that.
greater weapon finesse thread
For consistency reasons, I'm not sure "Greater Weapon Finesse" is the right name. "Weapon Focus" gives +1 to hit and "Greater Weapon Focus" gives another +1 to hit, not bonus damage. To get bonus damage, you need a feat by another name: "Weapon Specialization". Similarly if "Weapon Finesse" helps attack bonus, then you might expect "Greater Weapon Finesse" to give more help to attack bonus. Such help to bonus damage would need a feat by another name: maybe "Weapon Precision".
Then again, it would be nice to associate the new feat with "finesse", since both have to do with Dex subbing for Str. Also, I don't think there are "Greater" versions of either feat to distinguish from one another.
I used a more permissive homebrew feat (one which allows dexterity to replace strength for melee weapon damage for any weapon, with the only prerequisite being weapon finesse, and the only restriction being no two-weapon fighting).
I like the sound of this. Someone else said any weapon allowed by Weapon Finesse, ie any light weapon, and I think that makes sense.
KaeYoss had an interesting idea of giving Weapon Finesse to everyone for free. In that case, we could move it from the feats to the normal combat rules, then "Weapon Finesse" could be the name for the new feat that applies the same benefit to damage.
I'm testing out a feat like this in the Serpent's Skull campaign I'm running every other Saturday; it's based somewhat on the Dervish Dance feat from the Osirion companion (which is another feat that does this effect).
Here's the feat, if anyone's interested in trying it out as well. Should be easy to adapt it more to be a specific weapon other than the rapier if you want.
You have turned your speed into power, and your knowledge of where vital organs are located combined with your deft aim allows you to strike these key points with ease.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Heal 2 ranks, proficient with rapier
Benefit: When wielding a rapier with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You also gain a +2 bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits with a rapier. The rapier must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
I think Surgical Strike should not encroach on the territory of Dervish Dance, the feat is already present that allows a character to use Dex in damage instead of Str (which I think interacts nicely with Flame Blade - a spell granted to Paladin's of Sarenra).
Instead of Surgical Strike as presented, I'd take it in a different direction:
When wielding a finessable weapon in one hand, and no weapon or shield in the other, you may deal your number of sneak attack dice in additional damage on attacks in which you do not sneak attack. For example, 5th-level rogue that is not flanking or attacking a flat-footed enemy still gets to add +3 to her damage.
@Hexcaliber- For the monk, I would personally limit him to only x1 dex modifier for damage, since when a monk normally flurries he always gets x1 str mod. But that's just me. Otherwise, I actually love the feat, and you don't have to dip into Martial Maneuvers from Bo9S to qualify for it (which is the hardest part about getting the feat from said book approved by a DM).
Thanx for the love!
I ruled that since flurry of blows with a monks unarmed strike uses all their body parts then they couldn't gain the 1 1/2 Dex, but if they flurried with a finessable weapon then I'd allow it. She's a 9th level monk/drunken master fighting vampires with a +1 silver singham. Flurry is a full round action and with all the moving around the bad guys do in my game a character can expect to get a full round of attack off maybe once or twice an encounter. Plus I like reducing the MADness of monks a little bit with this feat. Now, replacing to hit/damage with Wisdom? That I would be against (unless it was a way cool prestige class).
Ultimately it comes down to what people want in their games. I want swashbuckling type characters, so I encourage it with this feat. Would the monk be better off using her feats on power attack? Probably, but this is far more interesting.
Edit (bold highlights change, for balance reasons):
When wielding a finessable weapon in one hand, and no weapon or shield in the other, you may deal your number of sneak attack dice in additional damage on your first attack each round in which you do not sneak attack. For example, 5th-level rogue that is not flanking or attacking a flat-footed enemy still gets to add +3 additional damage on her first attack.
I would be totally cool with a feat that gave weapons that are compatible with weapon finesse half your dexterity modifier to damage, which would stack with your strength bonus. It wouldn't scale as fast as strength, but for people with high dexterity it would still be a hefty bonus. Getting +2 damage on every attack when you have 18 dexterity is about as good as weapon specialization, except this one would scale and become better as you got more dex.Best of all, it wouldn't make strength obsolete.
I'm testing out a feat like this in the Serpent's Skull campaign I'm running every other Saturday; it's based somewhat on the Dervish Dance feat from the Osirion companion (which is another feat that does this effect).
Here's the feat, if anyone's interested in trying it out as well. Should be easy to adapt it more to be a specific weapon other than the rapier if you want.
You have turned your speed into power, and your knowledge of where vital organs are located combined with your deft aim allows you to strike these key points with ease.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Heal 2 ranks, proficient with rapier
Benefit: When wielding a rapier with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You also gain a +2 bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits with a rapier. The rapier must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
I'm going to run this by my players. Two of them happen to be playing rogues at the moment and I know one at least might be very interested in it.
At a glance, I agree with others who said this should appply to more than just one weapon. I recommend changing "proficient with rapier to" to "proficient in light piercing weapon or rapier".
Then your list of core weapons usable is: dagger, punching dagger, spiked gauntlet, light pick, spiked armor, light spiked shield, starknife, short sword, siangham, and rapier.
And of those weapons listed, few will ever see use with this feat I presume: the spiked gauntlet, spiked armor, and light spiked shield.
"You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand." This makes the feat sound strange. To me at least, it implies that you can carry something in your off hand, but if it's a weapon or shield, then you can't use this feat. I would recommend changing this to: "You can only use this feat if you carry nothing in your off hand."
And I like the Heal requirement by the way.
Yes, but were they able to "surgically attack" when holding the lantern? :)
Here are my issues: I can use the feat when there is a 10' pole in my off hand, but not when I'm holding a dagger in it. Or I can use it while I'm swinging from a chandelier (holding onto it with my off hand) but not when I'm holding a shield. I can use it when I'm carrying a sack of gold in my off hand. I just see lots of abuse issues and weird situations.
Alternatively, it could be written that you can only use the feat if you are not using whatever it is you are carrying in your off hand. So you could hold a shield for instance, but not gain its bonus to AC if you decide to Surgically Strike. Or you could hold a dagger in it but can't attack with it.
In the end though, I think it's just simpler to say it doesn't work if you are carrying anything in your off hand.
This sounds cool and it would be for playing with a roleplaying focused group, but it would be a broken feat in the hands of min/maxers and optimizers. I know you can never prevent it all the time but you can at least make it difficult for them. Rogues get sneak attack and DEX to hit already, they really don't need DEX to damage, not to mention I really don't see how DEX can contribute to damage anyway. If it must be done I say make it specific to a prestige class, not a feat anyone can take.
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Cool feat in development.
While that feat could be archetypical for a myriad of characters ranging from the Grey Mouser to Jack the Ripper to a certain dual scimitar wielding drow; for some reason Archibald Cunningham (Tim Roth's character in Rob Roy) sprung to mind.
And just because everyone likes links, 'the final duel'.