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Really. Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.The monk will dance around and get eaten to death. The bebilith does more damage, has more HP, has a better chance to hit, and has humongous reach. Really, you picked that woodchipper instead of a fire giant?I sure did. The Monk will have a ridiculously high AC (right around 30) while moving through the Bebelith's threatened spaces that no amount of Armor Dismantling will change. While the Rogue and Wizard fail their Fortitude saves against the Bebelith's bite and the fighter and cleric get entangled in its web attacks and get their armor destroyed due to lower Reflex saves, the monk will remain largely unaffected. And a 22 AC is child's play for a 10th level Monk to hit, though its DR will slow him down a little.
Well for one you reasonably assume that a monk of that level has 18-20 in both wisdom and dexterity which amounts to a +8-10. Then throw in potions of mage armor and shield and you go up another +8. A cleric who buffs him can increase it by a further +2 or more if he uses shielf of faith. Then there's the monk's class AC bonus which at 11th lvl is +2. You could also assume that he has a ring of protection +1 or an amulet of natural armor +1 (heck maybe even both!) which gives the monk an AC of 31-34.
Really. Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.
Okay.
11th level Monk, Dex 16, Wis 18 (possible with a 15-point buy set of stats), Dodge and Mobility as feats, 1 point spent in his ki pool for an additional +4 dodge bonus to AC (all dodge bonuses stack with each other.) That alone would result in a 28 AC while moving through threatened areas to avoid AoOs, and we haven't even given this 11th level monk any magic items yet.
By level 10 a well built Monk can perform a Stunning Fist attack 10 times a day or more, and they can use a FoB while doing it. So I remain confident.
You still labor under the delusion that it is possible to reliably perform a FoB against opponents that are not willing and able to outmatch a monk in full attack exchange? It's delusion. You're lucky if your opponent provokes AoOs at least.
Also, monks, again, suffer from MAD. So their accuracy and their DCs cannot be good at the same time.
You're limited to Cure/Inflict Wounds, and spells that rely on the monk failing a saving throw.
Mace to the face does not. Also, unlike monks, clerics that actually plan to cast in combat do not suffer from MAD. Their DCs are good.
As for just attacking, they'll still have a pretty high AC to deal with,
Monk's does not have a "pretty high" AC. Not without making his offense all but nonexistent. Without armor and enchantments on it, he's below fighters on the curve, and fighters already can't keep up (or just barely and with considerable sacrifices can keep up) with attack values at medium-high levels.
assuming the monk doesn't just take their weapon away next. A monk who builds to disarm foes is downright annoying.
Note, that you just spent 2 rounds doing debuffs that are indeed annoying. And just that. If you succeed (against an enemy which can very well have higher relevant stats). A serious combat is likely to be decided, if not entirely over, by that point.
Are we assuming a battle in which the monk allows the cleric all the time in the world to buff up, or one in which the monk and cleric see each other at the same time and the monk is standing next to him in one round or so?
Ever heard about "buff duration-long adventuring day", "scry & fry" and so on? Even without shenanigans like this, one round is all you need at level 7+ to become a better fighter than fighter (and therefore than monk), considering, of course, hours-long buffs, which are pretty much always on by this point. 3.X or PF, do not matter. And at lower levels, a combative cleric still has a good chances of outfighting, or at least matching, a PF monk merely by virtue of having armor and better weapons.
Give them mettle. I always try to get mettle for my monk builds, usually through pious templar prestige class. You could add it to the class around level 7 or so.
I sure did. The Monk will have a ridiculously high AC (right around 30)
By level 10-11, AC 30 is mediocre at best. If any significant sacrifices actually were made to obtain it, it is downright bad. A stock PF bebilith will hit the monk on 11. There is almost no chance in Abyss for the monk to outfight it by trading full attacks, and trying to move will only make his situation worse.
So... mind throwing up the damage your expecting for that monk? (include strength, items, all these buffs you expect the party to be spending their actions on him... etc)Really. Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.Okay.
11th level Monk, Dex 16, Wis 18 (possible with a 15-point buy set of stats), Dodge and Mobility as feats, 1 point spent in his ki pool for an additional +4 dodge bonus to AC (all dodge bonuses stack with each other.) That alone would result in a 28 AC while moving through threatened areas to avoid AoOs, and we haven't even given this 11th level monk any magic items yet.
What the rest of the party is doing is so variable that it's hard to list them all, but I'd build an 11th level monk like this.
11th level Half Elf Monk (15-point-buy build)
Ability Scores:
STR: 12 (+1)
DEX: 18 (+4) (14 (base) +1 (4th level) +1 (8th level) +2 (magic))
CON: 12 (+1)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 20 (+5) (16 (base) +2 (Racial) +2 (Magic))
CHA: 7 (-2)hp: 11d8 +11(CON) +11(Feat) +11 (Favored Class)
Saving Throws
Fort: +8 (Immune to diseases and poisons)
Ref: +11 (Improved Evasion when applicable)
Will: +12 (+16 vs. Enchantment effects)AC: 24 (Note that this is before using his ki pool for an additional +4 Dodge bonus and Mobility's additional +4 Dodge bonus when moving through threatened areas. In those situations he has a 32 AC.)
Special Attacks: Flurry of Blows +17/+17/+12/+12/+7, 1d10+2 dmg (19-20 x2); Stunning Fist 11/day, Can replace Stunned condition with Fatigued (1 round) or Sickened (1 minute), Fort save DC 21.
CMB: +12 (+14 to Disarm) CMD: 26
Feats: Skill Focus: Perception, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed), Improved Disarm, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Defensive Combat Training, Toughness
Skills:
Acrobatics: +18 (11 ranks, +4 DEX, +3 Class Skill)
Perception: +24 (11 Ranks, +5 WIS, +3 Class Skill, +2 Racial Bonus, +3 Skill Focus)
Sense Motive: +19 (11 Ranks, +5 WIS, +3 Class Skill)
(11 skill ranks left to sprinkle about as you like.)Magic Items
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2
Bracers of Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Mighty Fists +1
A Dwarven Monk would have a higher Con and Wis and a lower CHA, resulting in more hit points and a slightly higher AC, but you miss out on having an extra +4 to your Perception checks if you're a Half Elf with Skill Focus: Perception for free.
Clearly the monk will have a hard time bypassing the Beblith's damage resistance, but the other party members will have a harder time surviving in melee against it than the Monk would. Again, though, expecting the Monk to be your tank is setting yourself up for disappointment.
(Edit: Forgot saving throws.)
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HOW? What is this monk doing to "pin down the foe" that doesn't get him wrecked?
Can you add names to those you're quoting please? Its hard to figure out who you're responding to, and its relatively simple. Just add ="ScreenName" after quote before you close the brackets.
In response to your question, its the same way that the rogue or fighter avoids getting wrecked. The difference between a d8 hp and a d10 hp over the course of 10 levels only amounts to roughly 15 hp on average assuming the Con is a little higher on the fighter and the monk isn't spending all his favored class bonus on HP. They'll hardly be wrecked with only this insignificant difference.
Besides, they're not meant to stand in combat like a fighter. They're meant to MOVE in combat and work with their party. Have you just been ignoring my arguments this whole time?
So AC 20-24 with bad con and str, then.I really do mean show me the whole monk who does this, because he's not going to have AC 30 AND the ability to do anything.
That's an AC of 24 without ANY items whatsoever and an ability that comes into play quite often for a monk and a feat that the monk uses often.
So lets strip down the fighter then so he has no magic items and lets take a look at his AC. Assuming he has fullplate, a high enough dex to gain an AC bonus, a tower shield, dodge, mobility, and shield focus... the best AC i'm coming up with is 26 or 30 with mobility. That's comparable. AC 24 to AC 28 is a small difference, especially for a class not designed as the heavy hitter you see to think it should be. If we start adding magic items, both shoot up. With Magic Items they could each gain ACs over 40 pretty easily... but we're not arguing magic items here are we?
Since we're not, then you have a fair assessment. They work out, and they don't have to replace the fighter to do it.
You made a lvl 11 characfer who does 8 damage on his only form of attack. XD
You should also note that the build doesn't have a back up weapon, which Monks are allowed to use. Their fist is not their only weapon, and they can really use any weapon they deign to have proficiency with... and can often afford better than the Fighter since they save money not needing armor.
One would almost think that this monk's strategy is something other than doing damage!So if the enemy has a good fort save, what does it do?
Watches itself get disarmed?
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Assuming the target actually has a low enough CMD to be reliably disarmed or tripped, and even that is assuming that the target is CAPABLE of a disarm or trip attempt. (Flight and natural weapons are extremely common past a certain level)Or tripped.Watches itself get disarmed?One would almost think that this monk's strategy is something other than doing damage!So if the enemy has a good fort save, what does it do?
Indeed! But for every circumstance there are new abilities. Monks can jump like no one's business, so flying targets aren't invincible. Unless they're fighting a fully enhanced mage whose taken flight and is raining down AoEs with no save allowed, the Monk should still do pretty well. Can you say the Fighter will also succeed against all these flying opponents with natural weapons? Or the fully battle preped Mage? How about the Rogue? Bard? Barbarian? Even another Mage? Why not just escalate this beyond the standard to prove Monks aren't any good, huh?
Monks have versatility for lots of situations, though.
first of all, why do you have TWF? and how did you get +17 to hit? i see +9 bab, +4 dex, +1 amulet, +1 weapon focus for +15. am i missing the extra +2 somewhere?
Under the Flurry of Blows description, it says that the Monk's BAB for FoB is equal to his Monk level, but the bonuses listed in the table are always the monk level -2; monks get only the additional attack as if they had TWF, but they are not granted it automatically. Actually taking TWF reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons.
and i just browsed the list of cr 11 monsters. the things that can even be stunned you're only hitting about half the time at your best attack (assuming your numbers are right). even if you do hit, they only fail their save like 30% of the time. by my back of the envelope math, since you can only try to stun once a round, it's taking you an average of 3 rounds to stun anything, doing about 16 points of damage a round? most things on that list can kill you in two, though i'd doubt they'd bother to try if you're doing that little damage.
and have you seen the CMDs on these things? mid to upper 30s. you can't tumble reliably if at all, you can't trip, and you can't disarm.
i'm in the beginning stages of trying to do a guide to monks similar in style to treatmonk's guides, and let me tell you, as far as i've seen so far, going for dex is a losing proposition for monks. wisdom ups your armor class even when your surprised, your ki pool, and your stunning fist dc. your build here would be far better off ditching dex totally and putting all points into wis. or forgetting about stunning and going totally str for the damage and to hit. i mean, as you've built it, even if you hit with all five attacks every round, it'd still take you 4 rounds to to kill a cr 11 monster yourself. in reality prolly take you more like 8 rounds. that is not very stellar.
I'd be interested in seeing your guide when it's done. I think it's important to point out that these hypothetical battles rarely occur in a vacuum. There are several ways to further increase one's to-hit rolls that I didn't touch on, such as flanking bonuses, morale bonuses, etc., all of which can also be added to CMB rolls.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
So in my example monk, Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse apply when he attempts combat maneuvers with unarmed attacks. He would be more like +16, +18 to disarm. If the target is flanked, both go up by 2. Is there a Bard in the party? Add your morale bonus to hit. I'm not sure if the +1 from the Amulet of Mighty Fists would also increase unarmed CMB rolls, but it seems likely.
Also, Monks can apply a myriad of conditions to their foes that reduce the target's AC and to-hit and damage rolls.
And yes, a backup weapon is handy to have.
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I'd be interested in seeing your guide when it's done. I think it's important to point out that these hypothetical battles rarely occur in a vacuum. There are several ways to further increase one's to-hit rolls that I didn't touch on, such as flanking bonuses, morale bonuses, etc., all of which can also be added to CMB rolls.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.So in my example monk, Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse apply when he attempts combat maneuvers with unarmed attacks. He would be more like +16, +18 to disarm. If the target is flanked, both go up by 2. Is there a Bard in the party? Add your morale bonus to hit. I'm not sure if the +1 from the Amulet of Mighty Fists would also increase unarmed CMB rolls, but it seems likely.
Also, Monks can apply a myriad of conditions to their foes that reduce the target's AC and to-hit and damage rolls.
Actually, you don't get your dexterity when attempting to use combat maneuvers unless you take the agile maneuvers feat.
Hadn't noticed the part before about adding all attack bonuses to combat maneuver attempts, interesting.
You also add many AC bonuses to CMD, including Dodge bonuses.
Oddly, I don't remember seeing Luck in there.
Monks need there own table of magic items to flesh out the gaps in their equipment and abilities. (same with bards!)
Items that enlarge the monk, or allow some animalistic forms
a set of clothing that grants no armor bonus, but can be enchanted just like normal armor.
Ways to make their unarmed strikes silver, cold iron, etc.
Items or monk weapons that grant combat feats.
PS If you want AC as the monk, don't forget +6 from the total defense (with 3 ranks acrobatics), and you can still get a move action.
One would almost think that this monk's strategy is something other than doing damage!
Let me guess... bleeding on the enemies?
Seriously, his stunnung fist DC is no less pathetic (for an effect that does not take enemies out of combat permanently) than his damage. The only PF monsters of CR 10 that aren't immune and don't have enough Fort to save on 7+ (and remember, that he need to keep at least one such enemy stunned the entire fight to pull his weight in the party), are spellcasters/gishes, that, in their stock packages, frikking fly or crawl around under Improved Invisibility, and he can counter neither. Except for rakshasa which is flat-out invulnerable for this monk, even if we discount his formidable AC and good stealth abilities.
Of course, none of melee-primary monsters has any problem hitting AC 30. For massive damage. The rest can eventually plink him to death with spells/breath or force one save vs. losing too much, but they also can just frikking ignore him. It is not like he can actually harm or impede them.
@ angryscrub
When you do your guide, make sure to mention that Monks should pick up a good backup weapon if they want to bypass DR. They're not just limited to punching things. :P
Yeah. And surely they have extra WBL allowance for buying backup weapons and stuff? Right? Right?
So if the enemy has a good fort save, what does it do?Watches itself get disarmed?The bebilith. What does your monk do to a bebilith? You were the one who suggested it. Now, your monk can't hurt it and thus can't stun it, can't trip it save on a 20, obviously can't disarm it...
...so what can it do to "harass" this bebilith? I challenged you with this:
Show me this AC 30 level 11 monk who can threaten a bebilith.You offered me a monk who can't even affect a bebilith.
The same way any other melee character would have to; get a magical weapon with a good alignment or have a cleric cast Align Weapon on a weapon you carry.
Care to show me a fighter who wouldn't have his armor ripped to shreds trying to fight a Bebelith?
Care to show me a fighter who wouldn't have his armor ripped to shreds trying to fight a Bebelith?
3.X and probably PF archer fighters can do this. 3.X charger fighters can just accept AoO (it cannot possibly damage armor) and one-shot it. And fighter is not a strong class by any means.
But Bebelith is only the tip of the iceberg. There is not a single CR 10 monster against which odds are even for the proposed monk. He has reasonable chances of escaping from a number of them, but never of victory.
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Imho monks should be granted access to fighter's high level feats, for the purposes of unarmed combat, from weapon specialization to critical feats. His average BAB is enough to balance this.
i'm in the beginning stages of trying to do a guide to monks similar in style to treatmonk's guides, and let me tell you, as far as i've seen so far, going for dex is a losing proposition for monks. wisdom ups your armor class even when your surprised, your ki pool, and your stunning fist dc. your build here would be far better off ditching dex totally and putting all points into wis.
Str...Str...Str.
Make sure your guide says "The Monk must consider how he is going to be effective offensively in every decision they make." Then ensure that the suggestions in the guide follow this advice too.
Str > Wis > Con > Dex > Int > Cha
Potentially the Con and Dex are interchangeable - but definitely not the Str and Wis!
Hmm... I'm going to amend my original statement: full BAB and d10 hit dice, AND Wisdom bonus to attack and damage.
Take away the MAD. That would probably "fix" the monk, inasmuch as a single simple change can do so.
AMiB's other thread, about starting completely from scratch, is probably better in the long run. :P
Take away the MAD. That would probably "fix" the monk, inasmuch as a single simple change can do so.
By the way, sorry to go a bit off-topic, but what does MAD stand for?
By the way, sorry to go a bit off-topic, but what does MAD stand for?
Multiple Ability Disorder. That's when you have too many key abilities.
Multiple Ability Disorder. That's when you have too many key abilities.
By the way, sorry to go a bit off-topic, but what does MAD stand for?
Ah, okay. Just didn't recognize the acronym.
Well, allowing to substitute strength with wisdom on unarmed attacks seems reasonable.
On the other hand, I don't like it either when a class just has one really important attribute despite build (wizard anybody?). I think the ideal is two to three important attributes, that has different importance on different builds. This is the way of the fighter, barbarian, rogue and so on, and to make the monk not dependant on strength seems like a good idea, and well-befitting the theme of the class.
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I typically don't allow monks, as I feel they are OVERPOWERED.
They get more attacks than the warrior, unarmed does more damage than a weapon, plus they are immune to everything, get the 'good' save in EVERY category, walk through walls, etc.
Not sure why they need to be MORE powerful.
But I am open to contrary views.
:)
I also feel they are over powered, we have one in our Cauldron game and he is the one dealing out all the damage, we have agreed that in the future monks will get only 2 good saves (they can pick which ones)to help bring the balance back.
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I also feel they are over powered, we have one in our Cauldron game and he is the one dealing out all the damage, we have agreed that in the future monks will get only 2 good saves (they can pick which ones)to help bring the balance back.I typically don't allow monks, as I feel they are OVERPOWERED.
They get more attacks than the warrior, unarmed does more damage than a weapon, plus they are immune to everything, get the 'good' save in EVERY category, walk through walls, etc.
Not sure why they need to be MORE powerful.
But I am open to contrary views.
:)
I think we'd all like to see the build for this monk that outdoes ANY class, much less all of them.
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It's been mentioned that Monks have a hard time against opponents with DR, often hitting them many times and doing little or no damage.
What if Monks were given a scaling ability to bypass/reduce DR (regardless of type)?
Let the Monk treat an opponent's DR as 1 point lower for every 2 Monk levels he possesses. So, a 10th level Monk would ignore the first 5 points of an opponent's DR.
How might this work?
A bunch of stuff on page one which was awesome.
<3
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It's been mentioned that Monks have a hard time against opponents with DR, often hitting them many times and doing little or no damage.
What if Monks were given a scaling ability to bypass/reduce DR (regardless of type)?
Let the Monk treat an opponent's DR as 1 point lower for every 2 Monk levels he possesses. So, a 10th level Monk would ignore the first 5 points of an opponent's DR.
How might this work?
They only have the problem of bypassing DR that anyone using a normal weapon would have... hence they have proficiency with a good number of weapons that can be made to bypass DR.