110% agree with everything you wrote.
I think it would help give the Witch a more distinct niche,
and it seems like it fits the given fluff for how they come to their powers, as well as for Witches in general (real-world mythology wise, nothing about Witch necessarily suggests 'super genius' while Arcane Wizards DO support that association).
+1.
I was thinking this too so I agree 100% as well.
Only problem is Wis is generally used for divine spellcasting whilst a Witch is Arcane.
Of course. But why does the Witch care?
Anyhow, there are so many exceptions to these kinds of rules, they're barely 'rules' to begin with:
INT is for arcane casting... Except Sorcerors
CHA is for spontaneous casting... Except Paladins.
WIS is for divine casting... Except Paladins (now)
WIS is for divine casting... Except Archivists
I don't think the game will fall apart if Witches are WIS-based Arcane Casters.
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Only problem is Wis is generally used for divine spellcasting whilst a Witch is Arcane.
The same argument could be used for Charisma being Arcane (both Bard and Sorcerer use it), and yet the Oracle, a divine caster, uses Charisma. I don't think that it should be a hard and fast rule that Wisdom equals Divine, just as Charisma does not equal arcane. I think it should depend on the power source of the caster.
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Only problem is Wis is generally used for divine spellcasting whilst a Witch is Arcane.The same argument could be used for Charisma being Arcane (both Bard and Sorcerer use it), and yet the Oracle, a divine caster, uses Charisma. I don't think that it should be a hard and fast rule that Wisdom equals Divine, just as Charisma does not equal arcane. I think it should depend on the power source of the caster.
Just a note In PF a Paladin uses cha for casting spells
Re - Should the witch be a wisdom-based caster? Three reasons for this:
Absolutely right on all three.
Re - I don't think the game will fall apart if Witches are WIS-based Arcane Casters.
Agreed.
Great class along with the Cavalier that I will put in my games immediately.
A witch is a variant of sorcerer.
It might not be exactly the case for the Pathfinder version, at least not yet, but thematically that's still a mystic individual living in remote areas, practicing arcane arts, white and black, occasionally gathering in covens or sabbats with other witches.
In a word : Sorcerer.
In that regards, there is not even a doubt in my mind (and my humble opinion) that it should be an arcane caster, using Charisma as a casting stat.
I just hope the class will be revised accordingly.
And even if it is not, i will houserule it that way.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I was thinking something similar when I first read the Witch, but it slipped my mind until seeing this thread. I agree - wisdom makes sense for a witch, both thematically and with their spell list straddling the traditional arcane and divine lists, wisdom fits with their 'divine' spells as well.
INT and CHA are the stats for arcane magic.
WIS and CHA are the stats for divine magic (see Paladin, Oracle, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, and Channel Energy).
I tend to prefer INT and WIS for psionics, myself, for this very reason. It keeps things nice and codified.
So, my group and I have been discussing the witch, and we feel that witch may actually be better suited as a wisdom caster.
Agreed.
Pathfinder has been breaking the whole Wis=divine, Int=arcane mold, and I for one am extremely grateful for that.
My ideal would have been for the Witch to have her casting work something along the lines of the 3.5 Spirit Shaman.
She would gain different spells from the Witch spell list day to day, but cast those spells as "known" spells for that day.
Wisdom would dictate how hard her spells where to resist, charisma would determine the number of bonus spells she managed to talk her familiar out of (that's the exact opposite of the Spirit shaman, but it makes more sense at least in my twisted mind).
Of course I see the Witches familiar in the same light as spirits you must coerce into teaching you, rather than the classic Wizards pet who becomes more than the norm via his bond with the wizard.
100000000% agreed.
So, my group and I have been discussing the witch, and we feel that witch may actually be better suited as a wisdom caster.
Three reasons for this:
1) Wisdom gives the witch a niche. As it stands, not too much separates the witch from the wizard. As another intelligence-based arcane spellcaster, the witch runs the risk of stepping on the wizard's toes if in the same party. Using wisdom would differentiate game play, especially when it comes to skills, between the two classes. Also, the secondary ability score of the witch, as it is for most spellcasters who don't want to die, is dexterity, and, currently, there are few Wis/Dex character classes.
2)Wisdom is atmospheric. I can really imagine the witch being better at skills like sense motive and perception, than he is at spellcraft. It lets the witch be more spooky.
3)Intelligence implies that the witch studied their craft thoroughly like a wizard. However, under the current description of the class, the witch does not have a solid understanding of where his power comes from. Indeed, some witches apparently have no idea. A wisdom-based caster derives his power from the belief that something else is granted him power, which seems more in line with the current description of the witch class.
A few issues:
1. How do you rebalance skills around an arcane caster if Wisdom is the primary (i.e. likely to start at +3 or more and go upwards of +7 by end game) given (a) the prevalence of good wisdom based skills (Perception, Sense Motive, Heal, and Survival are the only WIS skills, but every one of them is powerful, particularly the first two, which are arguably the most important two skills you can have)? Skills/level changes to what if not 2+int?
2. How do you balance saves and character progression based on a good Will Save progression combined with WIS as the primary stat (i.e. you will never fail a Will save building)? This particularly comes into play when balancing encounters.
What I've found in most games is that the arcane casters are far more likely to stat-jack than Clerics and Druids, largely because saves are more crippling to arcane than divine. Since Clerics and Druids get the 3/4 BAB and can utilize armor, you find a more diverse stat spread (typically) amongst the two of them, particularly with Druids due to Wild Form. Early level divine is so weak in combat compared to early level arcane that you tend to see more swinging/shooting from the divine casters.
This isn't to say that I'm against the motion here. I think it's a decent idea...if you flesh out these major balancing issues and come out with working solutions.
Currently, Witches are balanced skill-wise to expect a +3 minimum on base Int (likely that the character had mediocre rolls and took the +2 to Int race options). A stat-jacked +5 base Int is not unexpected on a level 1 if the player had a lucky roll. The problem is that there are significant balancing issues if you change that to Wis as the base stat. Changing skills to 4+int does not necessarily fix the problem. The real problem is that you start seeing solid bonuses on the Wisdom skills (hey, I'm with the Wis folks on this, like I said) with mediocre Knowledges (which might become a party hole if you happen to...oh, you know, be the only arcane caster). Honestly, I'd be fine with reclassifying the Witch to divine, swapping to Wisdom, and giving Light Armor as long as the skill issue was clarified.
Unlike the DMG witch, this one is heavily built with offensive arcane spells, it also is apparantly built with the concept of study and spell acquistion, the character uses a spellbook. (okay a furry one that needs potty training, but a spellbook nonetheless :) These are clear hallmarks of an int-based caster.
The other thing is that wisdom casters don't study spells, they don't have to they get thier entire spell list for each level as soon as they qualify for them. Int casters have to go out and get their spells.
I disagree that these have to be the hallmarks of an arcane caster. Remember that this is a new class, and what's fun about new classes is finding different ways of doing things. If we maintain the attitude that casters of stat X work a certain way, we may as well not have new classes, we can just have variations on old. Besides, we already got a prepared charisma caster in pathfinder, so I don't think those old stat correlations are (or should be) sacred cows. If you asked 'what would a wisdom-based arcane caster be like' I think witch would be your answer.
And, even if that weren't true, the witch doesn't study a thing. Her familiar studies and the witch communes with her familiar. That sounds like willpower to me (though charisma would also be acceptable).
Personally, I can't think of which stat I casting would give the witch, mostly because I can't think of a witch that I would give any mental stat low in.
To me, thematically, the scary parts of the witch are that they out think you. They are 1 step ahead, and they are creative about it. At the same time, I see them as both perceptive, able to ferret out your weakness, and alluring, making arguments that appear to be good for you.
I think it comes down to where you see their power coming from, and I can see arguments there for all 3.
I don't think I would have a problem with the witch chosing their casting stat, not sure how this would balence though.
And I would like to see a casting class with actual skill points.
Wisdom is the ability that springs to mind when considering witches. Traditionally, wicca, old herbalist women, crones etc are the Wise Ones, not the super-intelligent mega IQ characters with astounding arithmetic talents.
The first thing that struck me as odd, reading the new Witch class was that it was Intelligence-based (I expected it to be Wisdom- or Charisma-based). It seems Paizo like their croning hags to be very clever.
The other thing was that the class broke the Supernatural abilities do not provoke AoO rule, by actually provoking it.
Changing Intelligence to Wisdom (or even Charisma, since we all know how witches tempts the virtuous men to sin) would be preferable. And Hexes should not provoke AoO.
So in essence, I agree with the first poster, 100%.
A few issues:
1. How do you rebalance skills around an arcane caster if Wisdom is the primary (i.e. likely to start at +3 or more and go upwards of +7 by end game) given (a) the prevalence of good wisdom based skills (Perception, Sense Motive, Heal, and Survival are the only WIS skills, but every one of them is powerful, particularly the first two, which are arguably the most important two skills you can have)? Skills/level changes to what if not 2+int?
2. How do you balance saves and character progression based on a good Will Save progression combined with WIS as the primary stat (i.e. you will never fail a Will save building)? This particularly comes into play when balancing encounters.
1. The same way you do for clerics and druids...
2. The same way you do for clerics and druids...To boot, the cleric and druid are fully capable of being blast happy or SoD or battlefield controller types too (Indeed they can have the wizard spells too depending on domain choices), and do so with better base stats (2 good saves) better HD, Better Attack progression, and in the druids case better skill points.
Oh wait, there isn't any real need for an adjustment since the game is already balanced for a character that has wisdom primary casting and good will saves and skills. They simply do better on these checks, which is ok since that's part of the character's flavor (good at wisdom based things).
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I'm kind of partial to the "cunning witch" or the "seductress witch" over the "wise witch" but lets face it all three archtypes are deeply ingrained in "witchlyness" often with one another.
But when you actually leave out the fates (Maiden, Mother, Crone) you tend to find that most of those seducing witch's are also cunning ones and use their intelligence to dupe young fools out of their beauty, or just use a glamor, and being villains they often makes missteps of wisdom not intelligence "bla bla no calculations for the human spirit".
So my votes for Int
Charisma would be acceptable, except that we already have scores of charisma-based spellcasters.
Yes we do. Far too many (I happen to think the summoner needs a change as well).
I'm kind of partial to the "cunning witch" or the "seductress witch" over the "wise witch" but lets face it all three archtypes are deeply ingrained in "witchlyness" often with one another...
Oh, totally. But aren't wolves or foxes often described as 'cunning'? Does that actually correspond to D&D INT score? I don't think so, and I think WIS could just as well work for a 'cunning' or 'crafty' archetype.
Does that actually correspond to D&D INT score?
D&D Int scores are meaningless, though. IRL, a dog is vastly more intelligent than a gerbil, and neither one comes close to an ape (which has near-human intelligence -- they taught Koko sign language!). But all of those animals get an Intelligence score of 2 because of the artificial "animal" type designation constraints.
In my game, apes have Int 6, dolphins 11, octopuses 5, dogs and pigs 4. The definition of "animal" vs. "magical beast" depends on magical abilities and/or supernatural origin. But that's neither here nor there.
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Does that actually correspond to D&D INT score?D&D Int scores are meaningless, though. IRL, a dog is vastly more intelligent than a gerbil, and neither one comes close to an ape (which has near-human intelligence -- they taught Koko sign language!). But all of those animals get an Intelligence score of 2 because of the artificial "animal" type designation constraints.
In my game, apes have Int 6, dolphins 11, octopuses 5, dogs and pigs 4. The definition of "animal" vs. "magical beast" depends on magical abilities and/or supernatural origin. But that's neither here nor there.
Got to go with Kirth here, trying to make sense out of animal intelligence is next to worthless.
So, my group and I have been discussing the witch, and we feel that witch may actually be better suited as a wisdom caster.
Yes.
This idea = win
PF is very good about building classes for 1st-20th leveling, but I think that the Witch is an Int caster for easier Wizard mulit-classing.
Personally, I think of PF witches as Cha casters (like a Sorcerer, etc). I know this is a minority opinion, and I am pretty conservative. So, I wouldn't be up in arms if PF followed this topic and went to Wis casting.
However, Con-based casting... now THAT'S different!
Now I'm not saying one is more-right than the other but from a 'fluff' standpoint:
Elf, right now, is a race that is better suited than most for Witch because they are Int-based casters.
Making them Wisdom based you take this away from Elf and give it to Dwarf. This is fine, but may make less sense to some.
Whereas I feel elf fits the general "Witch" mold better, for me, Dwarf (I guess) fits the 'crone' model of Witch better.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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In a Word: NO!
I love the Witch as an Intelligence caster! I wasn't expecting it at all (I figured they'd be Wis or Cha), and I have to say I've completely fallen in love with the idea.
1. The Witch doesn't need a niche, she already has one. What, she uses the same stat as the wizard, and gets her spells the same way? The same can be said for the Druid and the Cleric. Does the Druid need a niche?
2. Plenty of people have pointed out that Witches are as often Canny as they are Wise (and often being "Wise" is more about being "Knowledgeable" than actually having a high Wisdom score). Really, it comes down to a subjective opinion on flavor.
3. The Witch isn't getting power from an unknown source, they're getting knowledge. They use that knowledge to produce magical effects, just the same as any other Arcane caster. They don't call it Witchcraft for nothing.
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I like the witch as an Int based caster. The method she gains and casts spells feels Int based to me.
Wizards are supposed to be "Wise Men" but nobody bats an eye at Int based Wizards.
Witches are smarter than you, often they are wiser and more charismatic. But the scariest part is that a Witch has a plan, and is willing to commit all her considerable cunning towards your destruction.
Personally, I wish Paizo would completely break the mold on the witch and do the following :
Choose a subclass : Maiden, Mother, Crone
Have a list of core skills. Then treat the Maiden, Mother, Crone similar to sorcerer bloodlines. Each would give 1-3 bonus abilities based on focus, Maiden focusing on Cha (and making it her casting stat) and giving bonuses to charms, etc. Mother focusing on Wis (and making it her casting stat) and giving bonuses to divination. And finally Crone focusing on Int (and making it her casting stat) and giving bonuses to knowledge skills. Each would have 1-3 powers (same each), and each would add 1-3 more skills to the witch base skill list.
I'd love this, and I may house rule this myself. It just so much more fits the 3 archetypes, and there is plenty of precedent in PF for sub-classes within a class (sorcerer, ranger, wizard). It's just the variable casting stat that would be breaking the mold.
Of course, you'd have to come up with a genderless name for each. :( That, honestly, is the hardest part.
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Personally, I wish Paizo would completely break the mold on the witch and do the following :
Choose a subclass : Maiden, Mother, Crone
Have a list of core skills. Then treat the Maiden, Mother, Crone similar to sorcerer bloodlines. Each would give 1-3 bonus abilities based on focus, Maiden focusing on Cha (and making it her casting stat) and giving bonuses to charms, etc. Mother focusing on Wis (and making it her casting stat) and giving bonuses to divination. And finally Crone focusing on Int (and making it her casting stat) and giving bonuses to knowledge skills. Each would have 1-3 powers (same each), and each would add 1-3 more skills to the witch base skill list.
I'd love this, and I may house rule this myself. It just so much more fits the 3 archetypes, and there is plenty of precedent in PF for sub-classes within a class (sorcerer, ranger, wizard). It's just the variable casting stat that would be breaking the mold.
Of course, you'd have to come up with a genderless name for each. :( That, honestly, is the hardest part.
I'd support that
Innocent, Elder, Curmudgeon?
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Only problem is Wis is generally used for divine spellcasting whilst a Witch is Arcane.
Correction: Wisdom is used for casters who use worldly experience as their source of power or who call upon outside forces (Gods mind you. But the familiar allows them to commune with such forces) to request spells.
A wisdom based arcane caster isn't about what KIND of spells they cast. Its about WHERE the power comes from.
I agree 100%. This JUST.MAKES.SENSE
Give the witch some wisdom based skills, switch casting to wisdom. Done.
It adds to the flavor as well as the witch is a very worldly character when you think about it. They're not getting their spells though study like a wizard (The FAMILIAR does the study, the witch is communing with the familiar as a sort of middleman) and they don't have the same skillset either. They're not blasters, more like debuffers.
Personally, I wish Paizo would completely break the mold on the witch and do the following :
Choose a subclass : Maiden, Mother, Crone
1) This is probably too much work. It's almost a complete rewrite of the class.
2) This automatically pigeonholes the witch into a certain stereotype. What if somebody wants his witch to be a combination of these traits? I think this route would limit people's options too much.
I'd support thatInnocent, Elder, Curmudgeon?
Hmm, so...
Maiden/Innocent, Matron/Patron (or just Elder), and Crone/Curmudgeon?
I can hear the battle cry now of the Curmudgeon...
"YOU MONSTERS GET OFF MY YARD!"
:)
Not bad though, although not sure about Curmudgeon. :)
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At this point, I don't mind overlap between a Wizard and Witch. However, I will be able to tell you tomorrow how I think using the Int score...
I have prepared a 17th level character (1st level barbarian/16th level witch) to introduce as my 20th level Binder's cohort in the Savage Tide Adventure Path. We are currently in the Pleasure Prison in the Abyss, and my DM has informed me that my cohort will be freed from a cell and will join my Binder and the party.
The party has a generalist wizard (20th level), good cleric (20th level), ranger (20th level), binder (20th level), spell thief cohort(17th level), ranger cohort(17th level), and druid/wizard cohort (17th level).
If my cohort will "step on toes" tonight, it will likely be those of the generalist wizard and druid/wizard cohort. It is also possible that he could compete with the cleric given that I've chosen many healing related spells.
As I was preparing this cohort, I had to choose magical items from the party kitty (since the cohort was stripped prior to imprisonment). Interestingly, the party kitty was well stocked with Wizard-related items, including Int boosting items. The Wisdom boosting items had been already sucked up by the cleric, rangers, druid/wizard and binder. It seemed that the Int boosting items were comparatively less valuable.
Witches can be crafty, but that's not necessarily the result of intelligence.
Dumb street thugs with no education can also be crafty.
Not everybody who comes up with a plan needs to be a genius.
The INT ability score reflects "book smarts", i.e. how much information you have gained through study.
That's what Wizards do, they study.
If witches are so busy plotting and scheming, I doubt they have enough time to go to school or sit at the library, studying for hours on end.
Somebody with "street smarts" (WIS) is also perfectly capable of plotting and putting together a devious plan.
A witch, especially one like Baba Yaga, who lives in a hut in the middle of the woods, would probably be more like an anti-Druid.
She would probably make animal sacrifices, dance around burning bonfires and commune with spirits. None of those activities require INT.
A Witch should be a CHA or WIS caster, but not INT.
Being an INT caster would make her a Wizard.
Here's my suggestion:
Make the Witch a WIS caster, but let her WIS ability score substitute for CHA or INT for multiclassing purposes.
I like this idea, but my issue is that it sort of pushes the witch class into a "classic" witch archetype. This would have distinct flavor implications, as it suggests the witch's role in a coven. It would, however, be an interesting break from tradition.
1) This is probably too much work. It's almost a complete rewrite of the class.2) This automatically pigeonholes the witch into a certain stereotype. What if somebody wants his witch to be a combination of these traits? I think this route would limit people's options too much.
I don't think having a witch archetype is a bad thing, but I also don't think it 'pigeonholes' either. What it does is let you concentrate on one aspect. If you want to be multiple aspected, that is still more than possible. If you want to be a combination of CHA and WIS (The wise but earthy sensualist) or INT and CHA (The brainy sexy type, ala Abby Sciuto on NCIS) or INT and WIS (The brainy and street smart type), then you can do that. You just pick which one is slightly more than the other (INT, CHA, or WIS) and put your skill points into the skills you need to accomplish this. Add in a skill focus feat or two, and voila, you are done.
As to a complete rewrite, no, it's not. It's about a 1/3rd rewrite. The hexes would all remain, most of the class abilities would remain the same. It would require a minor rewrite of the skills section, adding in some automatically known spells based on your path (basically, spells from the witch list that you automatically gain at given levels without having to research them, your familiar just automatically knows them), and adding in some small abilities based on your path. It could even be that some hexes are easier for witches of one path to learn than others (level 10 for crone vs level 15 for the other two). It's not a complete rewrite at all, maybe 30%.
Hopefully you’re not talking split-casting stats. Favored Soul (IMO) was the worst class that came out of the 3.0-3.5 era
Hopefully you’re not talking split-casting stats. Favored Soul (IMO) was the worst class that came out of the 3.0-3.5 era
No, I was referring to a 1st level choice that can't be changed. You get bonus spells, max spell castable, and DC's based off whichever stat you follow.
On a more whimsical note;
One argument against Wisdom as the Witches primary stat is that Wisdom is often thought of as the ‘common sense’ stat. In some societies merely being a Witch would get you killed. It could be argued that it is unwise to pursue it as a profession in said societies. Though, it can also be said, that witches still pursue witchcraft in these societies. Bad life choices denote low Wisdom.
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On a more whimsical note;
One argument against Wisdom as the Witches primary stat is that Wisdom is often thought of as the ‘common sense’ stat. In some societies merely being a Witch would get you killed. It could be argued that it is unwise to pursue it as a profession in said societies. Though, it can also be said, that witches still pursue witchcraft in these societies. Bad life choices denote low Wisdom.
That doesn't really work. Generally people never see what they ARE as being overtly evil. Even the bad guys think their either doing what is right or what is needed. Very few (And those are the ones you should be afraid of) are actually aware that what they are doing is evil and are ok with that.
That being said yes, some witches would stop being witches cause they see it as a bad move. This means that the ones a party would run into are for all intents and purposes, on the far side of that life choice moment and as such in a place where they see what they are doing as morally ok, or even morally in the right. That takes the whole "Common sense" idea out of the equation entirely.
Witches would never see their craft as a bad common sense move. Now they WOULD see using it in PUBLIC as a bad idea. This only makes them secretive about their talents and skills. It doesn't drive them from them entirely.
For my 2 cents, I see Int OK for the witch. IMO, more than the Divine vs. Arcane or Spontaneous vs. Prepare, what seems to be the key factor is classes which collect and learn spells vs. classes who don't (because they either get to know a selection of spells automatically, like Sorcerer; or because they have access to the whole spell list, like Cleric).
In this sense, we have 2 PF classes which may learn and add spells to their repertoire, Wizard and Witch; the former to the spellbook, the latter to the familiar. Both may do this with scrolls and with "copying" (spellbook to spellbook or familiar to familiar).
In non-PF 3.5, the Archivist falls in the same category. That his spells are Divine is irrelevant, he does have a book and uses Int because his/her approach to magic is an intellectual one.
If the criterion is "you may pick and add spells to your repertoire = Int", the Witch is consequent with the other d20 classes.
On a different note, problem is that "witch" is a charged word. Many of our archetype witches from fairy tales, mythology, and real world anthropology could be better defined, in PF terms, as Sorcerers or even Druids (or multiclass combinations of Sorcerer, Druid and/or Witch, consider how the Witch rules let you stack levels of other classes for your familiar stats).
Sorcerer covers the "charismatic witch" who may charm people with a smile, a well-established cliche. Also the "born" witch who develops spontaneous powers (thing Charmed or Buffyverse witches)
Druid does treat pretty well the "wise woman" of rural communities. Many of her powers are community-connected (healing, vegetation, poisoning) and since 3.00 the multiple alignments available to Druids have made the class more flexible beyond the original "priest of balance and nature" cliché.
Witch does cover in a pretty neutral way the "lore witch". He/she seeks for knowledge and in the process establishes pacts with some obscure power. And it is also a clich'e that witches have vast amounts of knowledge (cf. Iggwill) characters want to refer to. And high Int is basic for good Knowledge skills. Although the class works for the European witch of Inquisition fame (at least the vision inquisitors had of witches), it can also fit other niches, being in a way similar to the 3.5 (or 4e for that matter) Warlock. That is, in a fantasy world we can have covens of urban witches, with neat and civilized familiars à la Phillip Pullman's daimones.
On this line, it is funny how the witch's spell list looks pretty similar to the Elf Mage one from GAZ7 for basic D&D, if anyone remembers. That list was created to personalized elven magicians which focused in the paths of the Tree of Life (the power to commune with) and yielded a similar blend of healing, nature and arcane elemental stuff.