I'm putting this in the round two discussion because most of it will focus on the summoner class, though there is going to be notes and comments on the others as things progress.
Advanced Player’s Guide Playtest
The first session.
Me and my group started Rise of the Rune Lord (yes, there might be some spoilers here and there) a few months back. We play every other week (in theory, though not always in practice), and are obviously using the Pathfinder system. As soon as I saw the playtest blog I knew I had to use these new classes, so I sent out an email to everyone, telling them they were welcome to remake their character or make new characters as long as they were the new classes. I only had one taker, our elvin ranger turned into a Halfling bone oracle…which ended up being a Halfling oracle/summoner. Our party fighter nearly became a cavalier, though the player decided to stick it out with the core class.
*spoiler for burnt offerings*
Not wanting to let my players have all the fun, I decided to switch a few classes out in the adventure itself. Nualia lost her cleric levels in exchange for summoner levels, and Erylium is going to be changing to a witch once I get the time to convert her over.
So far the summoner/oracle is the bright shining star in just about every encounter. His eidolon’s skills are ridiculously high, he’s pretty darn tough, and he’s no slouch in the damage dealing department. It’s early, and I’m going to reserve my ultimate judgment for a few more sessions, but so far my opinion is the summoner is outright broken. That whole issue where fighters used to suck compared to spell casters that Pathfinder fixed? Well, it just got unfixed.
Most combat encounters so far have seen the wizard casting spells which he needs to look up and figure out how they work, which takes time; the eidolon rushing in and bashing things in hand to hand; the summoner casting spells and/or summoning more monsters; and the fighter making his one attack…and generally misses.
I’m not very familiar with high level play, so until this campaign gets there I don’t have much of an opinion, but I can say that at low level play the summoner is unbalanced. Hit dice for the eidolon seem too high, which leads to skills which are too high, as well as too many hit points. When a druid picks an animal companion, he has a set list to choose from, with all aspects of the creature already set. When a summoner creates his eidolon he can optimize it to do what he needs…exactly what he needs. This is nice in that if you know the party is lacking something the summoner can fill the slot…but I think there is too much opportunity to create one character that handles multiple party roles. So far it feels like we have a party of regular adventurers, and a gestalt adventurer just joined in.
From the original description I was under the impression that the summoner was comparable to the druid. I have to say this isn’t the case. I would have appreciated a much weaker eidolon and more interesting summoner. Like I said though, we’ve only been through one session so far, and this may just be a knee jerk reaction.
Is the fighter well-optimized? Is the summoner or the eidolon well optimized?
I'm just curious. The fighter using a masterwork weapon maybe, weapon focus... or having toughness and athletic. The eidolon having pounce but no secondary attacks, or being a quadruped that took bite a second time... or being a tripping/pouncing death machine. Those kinds of things matter.
Very good point. The I'll get ahold of complete stats as soon as possible, but right now I know the fighter is third level, seventeen strength, weapon focus great sword, power attack, cleave, non master work great sword. The summoner is a first level oracle, second level summoner, and all I know about the eidolon is it's a biped with possible immunity to acid. I'm not sure if the player ment he was immune to acid completely (which he's not high enough level to be) or had the acid resistance 5 evolution, which would make him "immune" to toe 3 acid damage the eidolon took.
I'm thinking there might be some confusion on the part of the summoner's player as to how all the evolutions work. This might very well be a case of accidental/purposeful cheating. Will post more on the subject once I have things sorted out.
Very good point. The I'll get ahold of complete stats as soon as possible, but right now I know the fighter is third level, seventeen strength, weapon focus great sword, power attack, cleave, non master work great sword. The summoner is a first level oracle, second level summoner, and all I know about the eidolon is it's a biped with possible immunity to acid. I'm not sure if the player ment he was immune to acid completely (which he's not high enough level to be) or had the acid resistance 5 evolution, which would make him "immune" to toe 3 acid damage the eidolon took.
I'm thinking there might be some confusion on the part of the summoner's player as to how all the evolutions work. This might very well be a case of accidental/purposeful cheating. Will post more on the subject once I have things sorted out.
A third level fighter doesnt have a masterwork weapon? That seems very strange to me.
Part of the problem is no one looked into the eidolon as well as they should have. Claw attacks are secondary, so -5. Eidolon should be hitting a lot less often.
Fighter doesn't have a masterwork greatsword because we're playing through Burnt Offerings, and they're having a hard time finding treasure. Last session they managed to find enough loot to get a little better equiped, and he has one now, but didn't get it until the very end of the session.
My biggest complaint is the skills. I don't know, maybe the summoner player is cheating and I haven't caught on, but his perception checks have been 19 at the lowest, and normally in the realm of 25-27. There were a number of times where I would tell everyone to roll perception, and no one would bother, knowing the eidolon would make it, and tell everyone what was going on. The wizard's hawk familiar was scorring pretty high, but was never stealing the show.
I don't know...maybe the session just went poorly, and put a bad taste in my mouth for the summoner as is. Maybe the summoner made some mistakes when creating the eidolon (lord knows some of the stuff he was saying they could do durring the game was off base). Maybe I'm dealing with a party of new gamers and a single power gamer. Maybe I've got an outright cheater in my group. What I do know is I love the concept of the summoner class, but I'm far from impressed with what I've seen of it.
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Part of the problem is no one looked into the eidolon as well as they should have. Claw attacks are secondary, so -5. Eidolon should be hitting a lot less often.
Not secondary. Jason has corrected that mistake.
My biggest complaint is the skills. I don't know, maybe the summoner player is cheating and I haven't caught on, but his perception checks have been 19 at the lowest, and normally in the realm of 25-27. There were a number of times where I would tell everyone to roll perception, and no one would bother, knowing the eidolon would make it, and tell everyone what was going on. The wizard's hawk familiar was scorring pretty high, but was never stealing the show.
It's possible but seems wonky. There is an evolution that would give him +8 on that skill. With 3 ranks, the class skill bonus and that evolution he'd be adding +14. So definitely possible.
I don't know...maybe the session just went poorly, and put a bad taste in my mouth for the summoner as is. Maybe the summoner made some mistakes when creating the eidolon (lord knows some of the stuff he was saying they could do durring the game was off base). Maybe I'm dealing with a party of new gamers and a single power gamer. Maybe I've got an outright cheater in my group. What I do know is I love the concept of the summoner class, but I'm far from impressed with what I've seen of it.
They can definitely have decent damage and skills. Even my fairly balanced, non-munchkin Eidolon will be able to solo a fighter after a bit. Add the Summoner and they're a pretty deadly pair. But I've said it before and I'll say it again: Druids, Clerics, and Wizards are probably all better classes in terms of usefulness in a group. All three could probably solo a Summoner at mid and higher levels too. I can't possibly imagine what all the bloody fuss is about.
To my knowledge the player didn't know of the update until I told him. We were discussing the fact that eidolons can't wear armor anymore. So attacks, which according to the understood rules, that should have been secondary, were being treated as primary.
He also claimed eidolons can just absorb equipment, as long as the eidolon is alive the summoner can't die, and he can at any time decide to share the senses of the eidolon. Some of these are somewhat true, if you're high enough level. My understanding of the conversation leads me to believe the player didn't catch on to the fact that there were level requirements. I still don't know what the absorb items thing is all about.
Character is level 1 oracle and level 2 summoner.
The reason I'm concerned about cheating is the number range. Assuming he has the bonus of +14 to perception, we should have seen a range of 15 through 34. I don't recall every single perception check result, but I can say with a fair ammount of certanty that I do not recall hearing anything lower than 19. Another player even commented on it, one who is fairly OCD and is always paying attention to the numbers and statistics (one of the better warhammer player's I've played against, and has been playing for about a year now). Initiative was also questionable, though I do remember a result of 11 for the eidolon.
I guess, in short...the group I'm in doesn't have a firm enough understanding of the rules to really do a playtest justice. I'll keep responding to posts in here, but I don't think my playtest will really ammount to much. Too many goofey mistakes and over sights.
I do have to say that once I really looked at the eidolon's abilities it doesn't seem as bad as some make it out to sound. Part of that was the fact that claws were secondary though...so if that's officialy changed I'd be curious to see why. My biggest problem with them right now is the level of skill they can gain at lower levels, as well as how they are supposed to interact with the game world.
My last point might need some elaboration...What I'm talking about is completely nonmechanical. If this point has been discussed at length, please tell me where (I don't have time to sift through even post in every topic discussing the eidolon, sorry). How does the eidolon think? Does it precieve itself as an individual, or obedient servent of the summoner? Would it ever disagree with a choice the summoner made? Would it ever do something to save the summoner from himself?
Also, in reverse, how does the world as a whole precieve the eidolon? What sort of check would it take for an NPC to have some idea that the humanoid pile of bones and armor (in the case of my group's summoner) is not some terrible monster come to slaughter maidens and steal souls? What sort of issues does the eidolon create as far as the setting? Has this been discussed at all?
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My last point might need some elaboration...What I'm talking about is completely nonmechanical. If this point has been discussed at length, please tell me where (I don't have time to sift through even post in every topic discussing the eidolon, sorry). How does the eidolon think? Does it precieve itself as an individual, or obedient servent of the summoner? Would it ever disagree with a choice the summoner made? Would it ever do something to save the summoner from himself?
Also, in reverse, how does the world as a whole precieve the eidolon? What sort of check would it take for an NPC to have some idea that the humanoid pile of bones and armor (in the case of my group's summoner) is not some terrible monster come to slaughter maidens and steal souls? What sort of issues does the eidolon create as far as the setting? Has this been discussed at all?
As the DM, this is really something you ought to determine for yourself. My Summoner's Eidolon is even more obviously screwy than yours, appearing as a wolf made from mercury. I'd say you ought to give it circumstance penalties to things like diplomacy. In some situations, a bonus to bluff (its face being fairly unreadable) or a penalty (the target in unlikely to trust a talking monster) would be in order.
:) I understand as a DM I'm free to apply bonus/penalties to social encounters. As a DM I could rule that the eidolon must take the form of a pink tutu that is worn by the summoner, and ripped off and thrown down when combat begins. (hopefully we all see the levity in this)
What I'm asking is, has this idea been discussed? Would people be interested in discussing this as part of the playtest/at all? I think when a druid has a large wild animal following him arround there are some preconceved notions as to whether or not he should take it into town. Some fantasy settings go into specifics as to describe what cities think of summoning what are otherwise considered dangerous creatures in the town square (Ptolus comes to mind). As a community, what are people's thoughts on how the summoner interacts with all of this? Wizard/cleric/city official NPCs might know what something is when the party wizard casts summon monster X in town...what are the chances those people know what it is when a summoner walks in to town with his pet thingy?
The classes in the APG are considered base, not core...so how much of the population knows about them in general? What do people think a Knowledge (whatever) DC table look like for one of the classes? I'll write my thoughts a little later, after my next final...while my battery isn't blinking at me...
To my knowledge the player didn't know of the update until I told him. We were discussing the fact that eidolons can't wear armor anymore. So attacks, which according to the understood rules, that should have been secondary, were being treated as primary.
He also claimed eidolons can just absorb equipment, as long as the eidolon is alive the summoner can't die, and he can at any time decide to share the senses of the eidolon. Some of these are somewhat true, if you're high enough level. My understanding of the conversation leads me to believe the player didn't catch on to the fact that there were level requirements. I still don't know what the absorb items thing is all about.
Character is level 1 oracle and level 2 summoner.
The reason I'm concerned about cheating is the number range. Assuming he has the bonus of +14 to perception, we should have seen a range of 15 through 34. I don't recall every single perception check result, but I can say with a fair ammount of certanty that I do not recall hearing anything lower than 19. Another player even commented on it, one who is fairly OCD and is always paying attention to the numbers and statistics (one of the better warhammer player's I've played against, and has been playing for about a year now). Initiative was also questionable, though I do remember a result of 11 for the eidolon.
I guess, in short...the group I'm in doesn't have a firm enough understanding of the rules to really do a playtest justice. I'll keep responding to posts in here, but I don't think my playtest will really ammount to much. Too many goofey mistakes and over sights.
I do have to say that once I really looked at the eidolon's abilities it doesn't seem as bad as some make it out to sound. Part of that was the fact that claws were secondary though...so if that's officialy changed I'd be curious to see why. My biggest problem with them right now is the level of skill they can gain at lower levels, as well as how they are supposed to interact with the game world.
My last...
The update clearly says equipment drops on the floor when the eidolon is dismissed or leaves the plane for another reason and stays there, unless its cursed. I dont know where the player got the whole 'absorbs' thing but he's wrong.
As for the skill thing. If a you have a +15 bonus to a skill, not getting lower then a 19 for a game session is totally reasonable. If I roll a die 20 times I will not get 1 to 20 on my rolls. Probability only works over long periods of time, and if there is one thing that skews that sort of thing its player/dm perceptions. Obviously with a +15 bonus, his results will be very very high. These will stand out in your mind because there will be lots of high rolls, so even if he does roll low occassionally you are far more likely to forget it then you will the high rolls which were surprising. Its just kind of how our minds work. Memory is all about perception and not facts. For instance we have a player at my table that always seems to roll high for initiative. Its uncanny, but the truth of it is he considers initiative to be really important. He always takes a good dex and improved initiative. So it SEEMS like he's always rolling high because he usually ends up going first or second (high init mod). But one session I actually kept track. It turns out he was rolling about average, I just tended to remember the high rolls more then the low ones and they were more frequent because he had such a good initiative mod.
The skill thing is definately high, but it still loses out to true skill monkey classes. The rogues trapfinder bonus for instance will eventually outpace it, and the characters can always get skill items that the eidolon likely wont have room for unless he's completely skill based.
I understand the perception of the mind issue. Playing warhammer 40 k for many many years has taught me just how much of our memory is based on illusion. Next session (which might be a while for the player in question, as I just found out he had a seizure and put himself in ICU) I'll keep track of the totals, and have the stats on his character and eidolon.
As for the skill issue, I'll have to take you at your word. I've seen you post quite often in the playtest disscussions, and you seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders. I'm also guessing you get more opportunities to play than me and my group (once every two weeks, if we're really really lucky). So you have the experience on me. Even knowing that, it feels off. What I would really like to do is play a summoner in someone elses game so I can get a better perspective of things. The RotRL game I've been running has gone so wonky it's really hard to guage how one player is affecting the whole thing.