Per Jason's request, I'm starting a new thread for this instead of putting it in the general discussion for the classes.
------------------------------------
I think I would be ok with removing items from the eidelon...
...if there were 'item' evolutions to take their place. Say, for example, a 1 point evolution to add a '+1 weapon' to the eidelon. So, for example, the eidelon arrives already wielding a long sword appropriate to it's size. Then, allow it to 'scale up'. A 2 point weapon evolution that allows up to +3 but can only be taken at 5th level. A 3 point that allows up to +5 but can only be taken at 10th. A 4 point that allows up to +7 but only at 15th, and it scales at that point with level, up to +10 at 20th.
Do something similar with Natural Armor. Only, don't increase the AC, just allow the +'s to be used for armor bonuses. For example, 1 pt evolution that allows +1 at 4th level that only allows a +1 bonus (like fortification 25%). At 8th, allow +2 for 2. At 12th allow +3 for 3, and +4 at 16th for four (and auto-scale to +5 at 20th).
Let the fluff for the natural armor be it's scales, or full plate, or anything the make envisions. Same for the weapons. The idea is to allow the flexibility without making it a game breaker.
For magical items, go with, say, based off caster level. A 1 pt at 3rd level allows anything up to 5th caster level to be 'purchased' as an eidelon effect provided it doesn't duplicate existing evolutions. So, no belts or headbands (already an evolution). No amulet of mighty fists (already can be duplicated using evolutions). Want your eidelon to have a lenses of true sight? Fine, his eyes change and duplicate the magic item, now he has crystals over his eyes, or they are mirrored orbs, or whatever 'fluff' you want. I think that would solve, a lot neater, the issue with items (they are powers that the eidelon duplicates), and he just can't access magic items otherwise. His inherent magical body disrupts them (same logic that we use for why only two rings at a time can work despite having five fingers and why 2 items of +2 CON don't stack).
This sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me.
You could also use the gp value of items as a baseline for how many evolution points something costs. This would have the advantage of being more generic in theory, but would probably require long lists of what is or isn't allowed.
This sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me.
You could also use the gp value of items as a baseline for how many evolution points something costs. This would have the advantage of being more generic in theory, but would probably require long lists of what is or isn't allowed.
Agreed, it would take a good bit of rules, but not so many that it wouldn't be worth it. And it would allow lots of things that you can't do now. Like, buying your bipedal eidelon a flaming sword, an acidic sword, a frosting sword and a shocking sword, and having it wield whichever one it wants (or all 4 if it has four arms). If it only has two arms, it can pick the two swords most effective, sheathing the other two. Right now, you can only really give it acid or fire on all it's attacks.
This seems reasonable but would probably be a bit wordy on the page. It is totally worth it, though. Would you use the same format for natural weapons or leave those as they are?
Honestly, I think you could combine the two. Instead of saying 'Claw, Sword, Battleaxe' you'd buy attacks at their level, something like this :
1d4 : Dagger, Singham, etc.
1d6 : Claw, Shortsword, etc.
1d8 : Bite, Longsword, etc.
1d10 : Greatsword, etc.
So instead of buying claws or stings, you'd buy an attack (or a pair of attacks for 1d4 or 1d6) at a given level, and make the special effect whatever you wanted. Sword, greatsword, bite, battleaxe, bow, tail spikes, etc.
Up the size (or down the size) of the Eidelon, and all attacks go up or down based on the size.
This approach gives you maximum flexibility, and still leaves the option of +2 Bite attacks, or +2 claw attacks.
EDIT: Probably call them Weak Attack, Attack, Strong Attack, Very Strong Attack. Make them 1 evolution point for 2 weaks or 1 strong, and 2 evolution points for 2 attacks or 1 very strong attack.
My first thought on this is that it is a bit superfluous. What I mean is, the equipment issue with the Eidolon is really only an issue when combined with everything else. If the Eidolon was limited to a medium (or small) (monsterous) humanoid form - with no evolutions, equipment wouldn't be much of a problem. No matter what happens to the equipment issue, it doesn't matter if the other aspects get changed too far one way or another.
That being said, I'll participate in your exercise.
I think that the base Eidolon should not start with proficiency in anything but it's natural attacks. Also, it shouldn't gain any benefit (or penalty) from "slotted" magic items. It can use non-slotted items with no additional penalty, but suffers non-proficiency as usual.
From there, the player can use the Eidolons' feats to gain proficiencies.
I don't feel that should be the only way though. There should be evolutions as well.
Offhand:
- 1 evolution point for the Wizards' weapon proficiency list.
- Alternatively, for 2 points the Eidolon gains proficiency with a weapon group 1 "higher" than it already possesses. (Ex. 2 points for proficiency in all simple weapons. If it already has the feat, or has spent 2 points for simple weapons, 2 points for all martial weapons. If the Eidolon has proficiency in all martial weapons, no further benefit is gained.) Exotic weapons should only be gained through feats. (If characters have to be penalized for exotic weapons, so should the Eidolon.)
- 2 points for proficiency of armor one category "higher" than the Eidolon already possesses. Additionally, if it is proficient with heavy armor, 1 point for proficiency with tower shields.
Next is item slots...
Offhand, I'd say 2 points per slot with the limitation of the Eidolon can not gain more slots than a character could get. (Can only get two ring slots.) This still allows the use of monsterous feats to gain additional slots, but since that isn't core, the GM can decide if that should be allowed.
Next up is the synergy between evolutions and items... I think the evolutions should grant armor bonuses (not natural armor bonuses - natural armor through standard advancement is fine), and enhancement bonuses (for the attribute increases).
I think that should just about do it, then the Eidolon just needs some adjustment to the number of natural attacks it can gain... (But that is another thread.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
As for what happens to the equipment when the Eidolon enters/leaves the material plane, I have a radical idea. I present it as a separate idea, although I think it works well with my suggested changes.
The Eidolon enters and leaves this world through the Summoner. The Summoner acts as the Eidolons' gate, so to speak.
When the Eidolon is summoned, the Summoner can choose which gear/equipment transfers onto the Eidolon. When the Eidolon leaves, any equipment worn/carried transfers back to the Summoner. If the item slot is already occupied, one/both items are damaged/destroyed, and/or the Summoner takes damage due to the warp in space and time.
The first problem I see with this is if the Eidolon is of a different size than the Summoner.
I would say that if the Summoner is smaller, any item that is transferred to the Eidolon is damaged/destroyed. The appearance of the Eidolon is too quick for any items to successfully resize to it.
If the Eidolon is smaller when summoned, or the Summoner is smaller when the Eidolon leaves, the equipment "falls" on the target causing damage and temporarily disabling the target as they get out from under it.
This covers the cursed item problem (thanks to whoever suggested the cursed item transfers to the Summoner, that sparked this idea), and encourages the Summoner to either go "au natural" with the Eidolon, or pay the price of logistics (and potential pain) of having a huge Eidolon with a set of full plate.
Also, it presents an opportunity.
If the Summoner should die before the Eidolon returns home, its' gate is broken.
I'd suggest the Eidolon goes berserk, focusing it's attention on the source of the Summoners' demise. If that isn't viable, it attacks any creature in reach. If no creature is in reach, it then moves as quickly as possible to the Summoners body to defend it. Finally, if there are no further threats to the Eidolon or its' Summoner, it can be reasoned with by anyone that speaks one of its' languages. From here, the Eidolon will not leave the Summoners body, but can either carry it (or have it carried) to be raised, or seek vengeance on the killer.
@Disenchanter
The reason I proposed making the items evolutions was to avoid the whole item/slot/armor issue. His natural armor is either scales, or full plate, or leather, or hair, or whatever the summoner wants. He never has to buy equipment, because the the Eidelon has it 'built in' based on the evolutions and imagery picked. To me, that neatly sidesteps the whole issue.
As to your idea of equipment transferring to the Eidelon...
That does bring up an interesting alternative that could also be explored. Instead of making equipment be purchased as eidelon powers with evolution points, the Eidelon could simply duplicate whatever the summoner was wearing when he was summoned, if he can use it. You'd have to do something like make the summoner have to have worn the items for 24 hours prior to summoning (to attune them to him) to avoid him getting the best items from everyone in the party just before he summons, of course, but it would also solve the issue nicely. An Eidelon would only have access to what the summoner wore all the time. Could even have it lose the items if the summoner takes them off while it's summoned, but not gain new items (need to resummon for that).
@Disenchanter
The reason I proposed making the items evolutions was to avoid the whole item/slot/armor issue. His natural armor is either scales, or full plate, or leather, or hair, or whatever the summoner wants. He never has to buy equipment, because the the Eidelon has it 'built in' based on the evolutions and imagery picked. To me, that neatly sidesteps the whole issue.
Honestly, I get that. But I dislike the idea of built in equipment. Not only does it not work for me, not having to spend resources on equipment (feats and gold) actually makes the Summoner plus Eidolon more powerful as a class. Yes, my suggestions mitigated the feats resource, but the gold cost is still very much there.
|
The reason I proposed making the items evolutions was to avoid the whole item/slot/armor issue. His natural armor is either scales, or full plate, or leather, or hair, or whatever the summoner wants. He never has to buy equipment, because the the Eidelon has it 'built in' based on the evolutions and imagery picked. To me, that neatly sidesteps the whole issue.
One thing I'll note is that especially in earlier levels, PC's have somewhat limited funds. Your idea allows the Eidolon to get the bonuses of magic weapons/armor without the summoner shelling out gold for it.
As to your idea of equipment transferring to the Eidelon...
That does bring up an interesting alternative that could also be explored. Instead of making equipment be purchased as eidelon powers with evolution points, the Eidelon could simply duplicate whatever the summoner was wearing when he was summoned, if he can use it. You'd have to do something like make the summoner have to have worn the items for 24 hours prior to summoning (to attune them to him) to avoid him getting the best items from everyone in the party just before he summons, of course, but it would also solve the issue nicely. An Eidelon would only have access to what the summoner wore all the time. Could even have it lose the items if the summoner takes them off while it's summoned, but not gain new items (need to resummon for that).
Again, there's a lack of cost thing here. Additionally, how would this idea work with non-humanoid Eidolons? A serpentine base form may very well not have shoulders for the item to slot on, nor fingers for rings, etc. This would seem to give certain forms considerably more advantages.
Ok,
I had to reread those two posts again, twice, to make sure you were posting what I thought you were posting.
Uhm, no cost?
Evolution points are the cost. Yes, it's a +1 weapon at 3rd level, and it's taking a chunk of evolution points. They could have had other benefits instead (Say, two claws, bite, acid effects on all three, improved natural armor?).
In no way am I suggesting giving it to them for free as an eidelon bonus ability. It's paying evolution points for it, which is the balancing out of it.
No, they don't have to pay money. They do have to pay evolution points, which is other evolutions they can't get. At 20th level, you only get 26 points. At 20th level, they'd be giving up 4 pts for a +5 flaming keen flaming burst longsword. For that same 4 pts at 20th level, they could have bought blindsense, a Breath Weapon, Fast healing, Frightful Presence, Huge, Spell Resistance, DR 5/<Alignment> + a one point evolution, etc.
That's one attack, also. It does +5 1d6+1d6 Flame, with a burst effect on a crit and increased crit. Average damage is 12+Str, plus the crit when it happens. For the same four points, they could have two claws + elemental effect (1d4+1d6 Flame x 2) = 12+2xStr every attack. Most Eidelon's will have a strength in the mid 20's, so call it +7 for Str. A +5 Flaming Flaming Burst Keen longsword does an average of 19 damage per attack. A dual natural attack of claw + claw with flame instead does 26 per attack. Those two are not a huge amount apart, even accounting for the added sword potential to hit on the first attack (remember, weapon attacks gain iterative penalties to extra attacks). Add Improved Natural Attack feat and those claws are doing 1d6+1d6 flame per, which is 14+2xStr every attack (28 dmg).
I just don't see the cost as some dodge. You could, with the rules as are, just use natural attacks (say take quadraped) and do (bite)1d8+1d6 Flame, (claw)1d6+1d6Flame, (claw)1d6+1d6Flame, (slam) 1d6+1d6Flame, all at 5th level mind you, in a single full round attack. That's 15 + 14 + 14 + 14 = 57 dmg.
Again, I don't see this as some sort of dodge or cheat against money. It's just expanding the existing attack/energy structure to allow more variety of eidelon, not to boost their power.
The reason I proposed making the items evolutions was to avoid the whole item/slot/armor issue. His natural armor is either scales, or full plate, or leather, or hair, or whatever the summoner wants. He never has to buy equipment, because the the Eidelon has it 'built in' based on the evolutions and imagery picked. To me, that neatly sidesteps the whole issue.One thing I'll note is that especially in earlier levels, PC's have somewhat limited funds. Your idea allows the Eidolon to get the bonuses of magic weapons/armor without the summoner shelling out gold for it.
Again though, the eidelon can already do this with existing eidelon powers, at least at low level (+2 str equates to +1 to hit, +1 damage, and carry capacity). I'm looking more for a way to offer variety, not to 'cheat' or dodge or something.
|
|
I recognize the opportunity cost of using EP's on this instead of other evolutions. That doesn't change the fact that currently if you want your Eidolon to be a 6 armed beast with two great swords, a heavy shield, and a long sword you need to pay EP's and GP's to do it.
I'm not saying this is a deliberate dodge of the costs just asking you to consider the amount this deviates from the current rules.
You also didn't mention my second point on the idea top duplicate the summoners items. How do you propose to work that with non-humanoid Eidolons?
I recognize the opportunity cost of using EP's on this instead of other evolutions. That doesn't change the fact that currently if you want your Eidolon to be a 6 armed beast with two great swords, a heavy shield, and a long sword you need to pay EP's and GP's to do it.
I understand that. My point is, that gold shouldn't be a catch all for poor design. Additionally, right now, you can really abuse the summon by spending lots of gold. Letting the summon use items bought with gold means you have to build the rules for them assuming equipment is bought for them as well, and that makes it MUCH harder to balance out their abilities. For your six armed beast example, you could build him with 26 pts and give him fast healing, four extra limbs, and spend everything else on natural armor, strength, and huge size (for reach). Then you could spend another million or so gold for 5 +10 weapons and a +10 shield. That's a huge overpowering, and you either have to assume it in the eidelon's balancing, or you take it completely out of the equation by merging any 'magical equipment' into the Eidelon itself, making it pay the cost for that equipment with evolution points. You might have to adjust how many points or how much each costs to balance it out, but at least you've got a closed system at that point, and no amount of gold is every going to overbalance him.
I'm not saying this is a deliberate dodge of the costs just asking you to consider the amount this deviates from the current rules.
That's what a beta playtest is for, to figure out if the current design is perfect, or if an alternate design would work better. Honestly I don't consider it personally a huge deviation, it's just taking the existing rules for natural attacks and abstracting them another level, which allows more different types of eidelon's to be built with the same rules, but still be balanced against each other.
You also didn't mention my second point on the idea top duplicate the summoners items. How do you propose to work that with non-humanoid Eidolons?
I did earlier, but to reiterate, I think it's a posibility too. The big thing is you'd have to come up with 'conversion' rules. For example, if you have rings, the eidelon might need something to place them on. For example, if you have Gore, it could be they transition to horns, or if you have hands, they go on fingers, or if you have tentacles, on tentacles. So you'd have to set up something like :
Rings : Fingers, Tentacles, Horns
Gloves : Hands, Horseshoes, Tentacle Tips
Boots : Feet, Horseshoes, Tentacle tips, Tailtip
You get the idea.
Per Jason's request, I'm starting a new thread for this instead of putting it in the general discussion for the classes.
------------------------------------
I think I would be ok with removing items from the eidelon...
...if there were 'item' evolutions to take their place. Say, for example, a 1 point evolution to add a '+1 weapon' to the eidelon. So, for example, the eidelon arrives already wielding a long sword appropriate to it's size. Then, allow it to 'scale up'. A 2 point weapon evolution that allows up to +3 but can only be taken at 5th level. A 3 point that allows up to +5 but can only be taken at 10th. A 4 point that allows up to +7 but only at 15th, and it scales at that point with level, up to +10 at 20th.
Do something similar with Natural Armor. Only, don't increase the AC, just allow the +'s to be used for armor bonuses. For example, 1 pt evolution that allows +1 at 4th level that only allows a +1 bonus (like fortification 25%). At 8th, allow +2 for 2. At 12th allow +3 for 3, and +4 at 16th for four (and auto-scale to +5 at 20th).
Let the fluff for the natural armor be it's scales, or full plate, or anything the make envisions. Same for the weapons. The idea is to allow the flexibility without making it a game breaker.
For magical items, go with, say, based off caster level. A 1 pt at 3rd level allows anything up to 5th caster level to be 'purchased' as an eidelon effect provided it doesn't duplicate existing evolutions. So, no belts or headbands (already an evolution). No amulet of mighty fists (already can be duplicated using evolutions). Want your eidelon to have a lenses of true sight? Fine, his eyes change and duplicate the magic item, now he has crystals over his eyes, or they are mirrored orbs, or whatever 'fluff' you want. I think that would solve, a lot neater, the issue with items (they are powers that the eidelon duplicates), and he just can't access magic items otherwise. His inherent magical body disrupts them (same logic that we use for why only two rings at a time...
After play-testing the summoner a bit I thought of a similar idea. My player choose several item creation feats and kitted out his eidolon with a bunch of stuff making it insanely powerful IMO. I think that the eidolon should be able to wear items but the items will disappear and be lost forever if the eidolon is killed or dismissed while wearing said items and the items would have to be equipped when the eidolon is summoned. This allows for an attunement evolution to adapt to certain items, perhaps based on the gp value of the item. this evolution might also require a ritual and an additional GP cost as well.
|
|
Thanks for clearing that up, MDT.
The more I've thought on the idea of buying equipment with points the more I like it. I liken it somewhat to PFS Organized Play where the various rules, limitations, and scenarios are designed to make a fairly even playing field among all players everywhere. Just buying everything would create an even playing field for Eidolons and across base forms as well.
Thanks for clearing that up, MDT.
The more I've thought on the idea of buying equipment with points the more I like it. I liken it somewhat to PFS Organized Play where the various rules, limitations, and scenarios are designed to make a fairly even playing field among all players everywhere. Just buying everything would create an even playing field for Eidolons and across base forms as well.
Yep, it's kind of an alien concept in D&D, I know. D&D often is the battle of the broke millionaires, and whoever spent their millions best wins.
In a lot of other game systems, you build based on points (like the eidelon), and I play a lot of GURPS and Champions. In a point buy system, you always play off decisions. What can I spend my points on and what is the benefit? It means that with a good GM adjudicating the spending that anyone spending the same points as someone else is usually roughly as powerful, or at least equally as useful (say, a combat build vs a rogue build).
By making the equipment be part of the eidelon's build, you remove the broke millionaire from the equation, all of the power is inherent in the eidelon and any money spent is spent on the summoner, putting him back in focus as the PC, rather than the pet.
It is a very GURP-ish solution, isn't it? I think I'd much rather spend points for the Eidolon and keep that mechanic entirely and not allow any equipment on the Eidolon at all.
Of the suggestions I've seen I think this will have the most balance across all games. I just hope Jason is watching.
I agree, this seems to be the most balanced way to handle this issue. Maybe give it a fluff reason like the ever changing cosmic forces renders equipped magical items inert or something like that.
I agree, this seems to be the most balanced way to handle this issue. Maybe give it a fluff reason like the ever changing cosmic forces renders equipped magical items inert or something like that.It is a very GURP-ish solution, isn't it? I think I'd much rather spend points for the Eidolon and keep that mechanic entirely and not allow any equipment on the Eidolon at all.
Of the suggestions I've seen I think this will have the most balance across all games. I just hope Jason is watching.
Honestly, there's already a reason built into the existing system. The reason bonuses of the same type don't stack is the more powerful magic overwhelmes the lesser of the same type. In this case, it's simple to say that the magic that makes up the Eidelon's form is just too powerful for the aura's of magic items to affect them.
That would even leave open creating magical artifacts (created by gods, or ancient civilizations) that are powerful enough to be used by Eidelons. Since they are artifacts, and can't be made by player characters, that puts it in the hands of the GM to decide what 'eidelon specific' equipment he is ok with, and the rest of the stuff is merely bought with points.
I'm with you guys on this one, especially on the point of magical stuff just not functioning when used by eidolon. I really vastly prefer it to saying "Well, eidolons are just too wacky for armor to stay on, oh, and you can only fit items in x, y, and z slots because the others are... also too wacky."
I would, however, strongly caution against tying evolutions to certain GP value. Thats about ten steps too metagame to justify with flavor text.
How about we actually try and actually put together some sensible rules, rather than just pile up ideas?
Eidolons and equipment: The spells used to call eidolons interfere with conventional magic items; for this reason, while eidolons may wear and use such equipment as their form permits, they gain no supernatural benefit for doing so. Any item they wear or use functions as a completely nonmagical version of the same item.
Note: This will permit eidolons to wear armor, but such benefits max out at +9 for full plate, +2 for shields, and the eidolon must still have appropriate feats for either (there is no armor evolution). Also, phrasing here permits for artifacts, as proposed by mdt.
Then, to compensate for the fact that they're going to be behind the curve for saves (no cloak of resistance) and magical attacks (no amulet of mighty fists, no magic swords), you improve some of the evolutions to suit:
Resistance Aura (2 pts): The eidolon has an aura of magical toughness, granting it a +1 resistance bonus to all saves. This bonus increases by +1 at level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 16)
Aside: Cloaks of resistance are usually the very first investment I make with my characters. Perhaps I'm weird, but I'd rather get by with a +2 sword and a +5 cloak than the other way around.
Imbued Claw (1 pt): The eidolon is able to imbue a single natural weapon with magical potence. That weapon gains a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at 8th level, and each 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 20). Instead of enhancement bonuses, an eidolon may choose to select other options from the magic weapon attribute list of equivalent value (for instance, at level 12, an eidolon could have a Keen Flaming +1 bite attack in lieu of a +3 bite attack). The eidolon must be level 4 or higher to select this evolution, but may select it as many times as it likes, applying it to a different natural attack each time.
Note: We make this one cheap 'cause eidolons tend to have several natural attacks.
Imbued Blade (2 pts): The eidolon channels magical power into a weapon it wields. Whenever it wields a single manufactured weapon, it replaces any other magical features with a +1 bonus to attack and damage. This bonus increases by +1 at level 8, and every 4 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at level 20) Instead of enhancement bonuses, an eidolon may choose to select other options from the magic weapon attribute list of equivalent value, but these attributes are fixed no matter what weapon the eidolon wields (if they select +1 flaming, any held weapon becomes a +1 flaming weapon. Inappropriate attributes, such as distance on a longsword, simply do not function).
An eidolon may take this evolution more than once, in order to apply it to multiple held weapons. An eidolon must be level 4 or higher to select this evolution.
Note: more expensive; most eidolons will only use one magical weapon, or perhaps two.
I've included the Imbued Blades idea because Jason is still allowing magical weapons, but I actually don't really like it. While there's a precedent for creatures making weapons more potent by holding them, it feels like a workaround and begs the question "Why can't I imbue armor as well?".
Better solution would be to amend the 'magic attack' 'energy attack' evolutions to be channeled through any melee weapons the eidolon wields. That way the null-function swords it swings can still tack on alignment, magic, and elemental effects.
Am I missing any other vital stuff? I know Jason left the head slot open for headbands of charisma, but I feel like it'd be far better to just include an evolution like ones in this thread.