I am not suggesting it's a sin to min/max, dude. I am saying that I've seen many players like you get tooooo hooked onto that aspect of the game, take it over with rules-based power gaming and ruin it for other players that play for the flavor (and a good understanding of the rules as well).
I am not suggesting it's a sin to min/max, dude. I am saying that I've seen many players like you get tooooo hooked onto that aspect of the game, take it over with rules-based power gaming and ruin it for other players that play for the flavor (and a good understanding of the rules as well).
Who says I'm too hooked on the mechanics? All I'm doing is discussing the mechanical aspect of the game in a thread about the mechanical aspect of the game. That shows an ability to actually stay on topic, not any obsession.
And if someone paying half a mind to actually playing the game everyone agreed to come together to play ruins everyone's fun, that group has serious issues to deal with. Like, why are they playing a game they don't want to play in the first place? And if someone paying attention to the rules ruins the game, then the game is broken to begin with, and needs to be fixed so that it can actually be played.
Do mind the insults out the corner of the mouth; calling me a powergamer and accusing me of ruining others' fun without basis just ain't kosher.
I am not suggesting it's a sin to min/max, dude. I am saying that I've seen many players like you get tooooo hooked onto that aspect of the game, take it over with rules-based power gaming and ruin it for other players that play for the flavor (and a good understanding of the rules as well).Who says I'm too hooked on the mechanics? All I'm doing is discussing the mechanical aspect of the game in a thread about the mechanical aspect of the game. That shows an ability to actually stay on topic, not any obsession.
And if someone paying half a mind to actually playing the game everyone agreed to come together to play ruins everyone's fun, that group has serious issues to deal with. Like, why are they playing a game they don't want to play in the first place? And if someone paying attention to the rules ruins the game, then the game is broken to begin with, and needs to be fixed so that it can actually be played.
Do mind the insults out the corner of the mouth; calling me a powergamer and accusing me of ruining others' fun without basis just ain't kosher.
Insults? Where? And just because the thread is about "tiers" doesn't mean I don't have the right to chime in on my opinion and what I've seen happen over the years. I think you are a bit sensitive.
I am not suggesting it's a sin to min/max, dude. I am saying that I've seen many players like you get tooooo hooked onto that aspect of the game, take it over with rules-based power gaming and ruin it for other players that play for the flavor (and a good understanding of the rules as well).
I've seen a number of powergamers in my time, and there doesn't really seem to be much correlation between power gaming and optimizing/min-maxing.
Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don't.
Accusing optimizers of being Powergamers who ruin people's games is insulting to those of us that don't.
Do you even know Viletta Vadim personally, or are you just throwing around random insults and hoping they apply?
|
(Also, a little secret. Preparing spells isn't a big handicap at all. There is a ton of versatility and power in spells, enough so that you could use the exact same spell prepared list every day of a given level and never regret it if you chose wisely.)
And the same could be said for spontaneous casters only KNOWING a limited number of spells. I'd rank the two classes approximately equal, with the sorcerers flexibility making up for the wizards greater number of spells per day.
Similarly, I think this whole tier system is rather ridiculous. If it were true, than nobody would ever really play anything but a wizard. A wizard's power is great, but sometimes it just won't be as useful as a fighter's sword, a barbarian's axe, a rogue's stealth, etc.
I am not suggesting it's a sin to min/max, dude. I am saying that I've seen many players like you get tooooo hooked onto that aspect of the game, take it over with rules-based power gaming and ruin it for other players that play for the flavor (and a good understanding of the rules as well).
I've seen a number of powergamers in my time, and there doesn't really seem to be much correlation between power gaming and optimizing/min-maxing.
Sometimes they go together, sometimes they don't.
Accusing optimizers of being Powergamers who ruin people's games is insulting to those of us that don't.
Do you even know Viletta Vadim personally, or are you just throwing around random insults and hoping they apply?
Again, I think you are taking my comments for insults directed at Vadim. Don't know him, and I am sure he's a nice guy. While "like you" might suggest I am saying that "he" ruins other people's games, the main point I am trying to make is that "what does it matter what tier a character belongs to?" It's all about context.
I addressed the potential insult a few posts up Saradoc, may want to read and respond when your able.
I think I did, but I appreciate it. Vadim, if you can hear this - I apologize if I made a comment that insulted you. No insult to you was ever intended. And if you are female, I apologize as well.
One item that might be misconstrued as an insult, is calling a woman a dude, though I don't think that's the case here (and incase you didn't know, Villetta is a woman)
I generally accept 'dude' as gender-neutral, mostly because the word 'dudette' makes my blood boil.
I think I did, but I appreciate it. Vadim, if you can hear this - I apologize if I made a comment that insulted you. No insult to you was ever intended. And if you are female, I apologize as well.
Thank you. And yes, I am female.
Now, addressing the original point, yes, there are powergamers out there. But... that's rather tangential. The tiers aren't about powergaming. They're about describing the state of power within the system, so that the group can make more informed decisions about their game. So that the DM can make allowances and drop toys for the lower-end Fighter, rather than asking the Wizard to hold back all the time, or so that in character creation, they can make a party that can stand on more even footing, whether that's on the high end of the power spectrum or the low-end. A party roster that reads, Fighter/Healer/Ninja/Warlock can be a lot of fun, works together well, and is fairly easy to DM for.
And if someone really wants to bring a Samurai into a party made up of a Crusader, a Beguiler, and a Favored Soul, it lets the DM know that it could be a good idea to give that Samurai a leg up and a helping hand, and maybe a few houserules or extra gear, so that she can contribute alongside the other party members.
That is what the tier list is all about. Not powergaming.
One item that might be misconstrued as an insult, is calling a woman a dude, though I don't think that's the case here (and incase you didn't know, Villetta is a woman)I generally accept 'dude' as gender-neutral, mostly because the word 'dudette' makes my blood boil.
I think I did, but I appreciate it. Vadim, if you can hear this - I apologize if I made a comment that insulted you. No insult to you was ever intended. And if you are female, I apologize as well.Thank you. And yes, I am female.
Now, addressing the original point, yes, there are powergamers out there. But... that's rather tangential. The tiers aren't about powergaming. They're about describing the state of power within the system, so that the group can make more informed decisions about their game. So that the DM can make allowances and drop toys for the lower-end Fighter, rather than asking the Wizard to hold back all the time, or so that in character creation, they can make a party that can stand on more even footing, whether that's on the high end of the power spectrum or the low-end. A party roster that reads, Fighter/Healer/Ninja/Warlock can be a lot of fun, works together well, and is fairly easy to DM for.
And if someone really wants to bring a Samurai into a party made up of a Crusader, a Beguiler, and a Favored Soul, it lets the DM know that it could be a good idea to give that Samurai a leg up and a helping hand, and maybe a few houserules or extra gear, so that she can contribute alongside the other party members.
That is what the tier list is all about. Not powergaming.
I understand.
Here is my revised opinion on the subject, for what it matters. As a very experienced DM of more than 18 years, I am one that focuses in on the player, making the game player-centric. I say, "Play whatever you like, whatever type of class you enjoy the most - that's all I ask..." That is my perennial statement to players. The problem with the "tier" concept is that it is so evaluatory (is that a word?) in nature. It is simply my DMing style that says, "Don't worry about tiers, worry about having fun playing this game." Because it's a game. The tier discussion seems (again, note I said "seems") far too philosophical and academic, and as a good DM, I will help control the balance of challenge, rewards, and insertion of player-focused plot elements - a true manager of the game without "playing" it for someone.
These are just thoughts - and they might be slightly off topic, but I feel it is necessary to keep the passion for your preferred class at the heart of the game and let that flavor the outcomes. The min/maxing vs. powergaming thing I see. Your thought on how optimization improves roleplaying I would debate. I do not think it drags down the game if you have players that are not optimizing. I would gladly run a party of bards if they wanted to. I feel that many players (maybe not you) focus on optimization a bit too much, making the game more of a technical exercise (although I will say that for some mindsets, that sort of approach is what makes it fun for them).
|
I think the Tier analysis is pretty correct overall, as is the purpose behind it (to allow the DM to give players options to make their characters interesting to play at all levels in the campaign.
In my opinion:
PF Tier I: Wizard, Cleric
Solution if other PCs are in lower tiers--d4 Wizard HD and control of spells made available, i.e., only specialty/universal school are automatically available for the Wizard and for Clerics only spells compatible with their deity's nature are available. In both cases, spells outside of the Core are only made available through in-game role-playing (discovery or creation). Also, casting spells of the PCs highest level available is always a full round action. (After all, isn't it the highest level spell that is the one the PC needs to make the biggest splash?)
PF Tier II: Druid, Sorcerer, Paladin
Solution if other PCs are in lower tiers--Druid has to give up wild shape or the animal companion (no doubt which one a min/maxer would choose but reducing the animal companion as a flanker/extra attacker is a big deal in), Sorcerer has to abide by the casting rule for a wizard and can't pick a spell he hasn't seen in-game, and the Paladin has her moral code enforced strictly and defined explicitly.
Solution if other PCs are in higher tiers--Allow PCs to play a non-standard race with up to 2 racial HD or Nat Armor/Nat Attack of up to +2/2d6 or Scent special ability but no special movement forms or spell-like abilities.
PF Tier III: Fighter, Rogue, Bard
Solution if other PCs are in lower tiers(Unlikely as this is the realistic mediocre tier)--Fighter is restrained best by access to equipment, magical and otherwise. Rogue is restrained best by sliding her back down to a d6 hit die. The Bard is easily restrained through limiting social skill check situations.
Solution if other PCs are in higher tiers--As above but include spell-like abilities that reflect 1st or second level spells and potentially one non-standard movement form (swim before burrow before flight). Remove the dex penalty for ride checks for the Fighter, give the fighter an exotic weapon proficiency for free, allow Rogues to access a black market on a successful appraise check which will allow them to obtain non-standard items in excess of community limit (DC equal to 10+ 5% over community limit), and allow Bards to swap out skill ranks whenever Versatile performance makes prior skill buys irrelevant.
PF Tier IV: Monk, Barbarian
Solution if other PCs are in higher tiers--Introduce 'Break' mechanics for Monks to allow them to destroy/bypass barriers with a successful concentration check, give them a bonus on concentration checks equal to class level, and allow Flurry of Blows to be a standard action each day for a number of rounds equal to the monk's wisdom modifier. For the Barbarian allow character, when Raging, to automatically confirm critical hits.
The Tier system has been very helpful for me, as a DM, to adjust PC specific house rules to keep everyone happy. Usually I apply a combination of these suggested house rules to calibrate the group. In the end, you can also accomplish a lot of calibration simply by adjusting party treasure to suit the needs of the group. Everyone at the table should feel like they have a place to shine.
Aw man, this thing is still shambling along? Kill it with fire and sneak attacks!
GAAAAHHH!!!!
PEW! PEW! PEWPEWPEW!