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Level 5 Human Summoner
Level 5 Human Witch
Level 5 Human Battle Oracle (Blind)
Level 5 Halfling Cavalier
Level 5 Halfling Rogue
Stats for these characters can be found HERE.
Description to come...
What stat generation did you do?
Looking forward to seeing how it works out.
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Okay the set up was fairly simple, the PCs were tasked with retrieving a McGuffin from an ancient temple in the middle of a desert. Unfortunately the temple was currently occupied by nomadic sand ogres.
Encounter 1 - The Ruins Entrance
PCs became aware of a pair of Ogres at 80 foot distance (raven and flying eidolon scouting ahead). The PCs buffed stealthed to charge range, at which point the Cavalier charged one of the Ogres. The Cavalier hit on a 2 (+5 bab, +4 str, +4 for mounted charge, +4 buffs) . Triple damage thanks to a lance, 2d6 from challenge was just icing one-shotting the Ogre.
The other Ogre was quickly occupied by an Eidolon dropping from the sky. Witch, Rogue and Summoner kept to ranged attacks, figuring the Cavalier and the Eidolon had it. The cavalier charged the second Ogre, which was damaged by the Eidolon, and promptly murdered it.
Encounter 2 - The Temple Nexus
Square 90 foot room, one major pillar at the top, refuse and ogre pallets on the sides and corners. The room was pitch black inside (the ogres had covered the windows). The Oracle warned the others of immediate danger (which the Ogres heard). Both sides were aware, Initiative was rolled.
Oracle summoned a fire elemental which appeared on the next turn, the witch cast light on the Cavalier's Lance, the cavalier rolled poorly for init and got charged by an ogre. The eidolon kept another ogre busy, a third ogre charged in from beyond the sight range of even the oracle. Cavalier's tactics involved riding away from the enemy (taking the AoO due to high ride skill, high AC (oath of protection) and HP) and then returning with a charge (turning any poor sod hit to a fine red mist). Eidolon's damage was reasonable but never spectacular (never quite hitting as often as the Cavalier, due to the massive stackable bonuses gained from charging). (At some point during this fight the PCs heard the sound of a 4th ogre escaping)
Encounter 3 - The Statue of Visions
The next room had a pair of Ogre Degenerates gnawing on the corpse of a third. Again lighting was strictly enforced, but a combination of a Witch's web, the summoner bringing 3 small water elementals to bear (when one of the Ogre Degenerates stepped into a pool of water), and a liberal application of Spirited Charge killed the beasts by round 3. They PCs received a vision from the statue, of a strange star scape from which the sun goddess was fending off hordes of madness inducing elder gods. They also learned the secret to opening another door (they'd need a chime)
Encounter 4 - The Library
The next room appeared to have a lone ogre, sitting in a sphere of supernatural darkness. The party wolf packed the beast (with the aid of 3 water elementals still fresh from the last encounter). When the Cavalier shot past the Ogre in an attempt to turn around and charge him he got hit with a cone of cold (dropping the cavalier to negatives), and revealing the presence of an Ogre Mage. The summoner and the witch cast grease on the beast's weapons (forcing it to rely on Spell-like abilities), while the oracle put the heavy duty heal on the cavalier. The summoner ordered his water elementals and his eidolon to wolf-pack the Ogre Mage.
The Ogre Mage promptly flew to the other side of the room and cast Charm Monster on the Summoner (who rolled low), and for the rest of the fight tried to keep his "friends" from hurting each other (ordering grapples etc). The witch put the summoner to sleep, but his eidolon helpfully woke him up. The Ogre Mage bluffed the summoner into thinking he was "defending himself" from the cavalier while grappling the recently awoken Cavalier (pinning him and dealing damage each round).
This fight was long, but the Witch put the Ogre Mage to Sleep (Ogre Mage rolled a 1, tanking the save. Point of order he would have succeeded on a 6+).
The PCs coup des graced him (not realising that he had regeneration, but the Ogre Mage knew to cut his losses).
Encounter 5 - The Chamber of Light and Fire
The PCs had 5 minutes to decipher a riddle, and fulfill the answer before a pack of fire elementals would be summoned to attack them. They succeeded though collecting the Sphere of the Sun Goddess.
Encounter 6 - The Desert Centaurs
Back outside again a group of Desert Centaurs appeared over a nearby sand dune. One of which was well armed and armoured (with a lance and full-plate armour), and his pet deinonychus.
(4xCentaurs, 1xLevel 5 Centaur Cavalier, 1xdeinonychus "mount"/"pet")
I ruled that the Centaur would be treated as Mounted at all times (seemed reasonable). Combat ensued.
The summoner spammed every summon he could every turn, by the end he had:
2x small earth elementals
1x celestial ant drone
1x lantern archon
3x celestial giant spiders
1x eidolon
and himself. His turns by the end took approximately 14 minutes to resolve.
The Witch's sleep ability was put to good use (teamed with the rogue coup des gracing every available opportunity). The Centaur Cavalier declared a challenge on her (Overrunning the Cavalier to get to her). She ended up in negatives (having taken damage from AoOs using her sleep ability). Oracle kept her alive with heal spamming. Cavalier stayed with the run-away and come back for 1-shot kills (damage would average out at around 21 without challenge, with challenge it would hit 28-33 regularly. Enough to kill a lot of brutes between CR 3-4).
Ultimately the fight was finished by the Summoner, keeping the centaur minions locked into combat and away from the PCs.
Final HP totals:
Cavalier 20 of 54
Witch 8 of 30-something
Oracle Untouched
Summoner Untouched (Eidolon 4 hp)
Rogue (Close to Max)
Conclusions -
The players of the Cavalier and the Summoner felt their characters were mad fun, but just a little bit too effective. Sadly the problem was not the challenge, but Spirited Charge (a halfling capable of taking his steed practically anywhere is killer).
The Summoner is very good at what he does, but what he does is a logistical nightmare. With turns that take up the time a full combat round would take the rest of the players combined, the summoner is something of an attention hog.
The witch's abilities feel very "save or lose" even taking AoOs if a monster falls asleep, it's DEAD next turn (coup des grace being what it is). I think perhaps if the creature were to fall asleep more slowly (fatigued 1st round, exhausted 2nd round, asleep 3rd round) then it would keep that creature in the fight (albeit less effectively), and allow it ample opportunity not to give a 1st level witch a save or die ability useable all day long (albeit once per target)
The oracle felt a little bland compared to the other classes, and the cleric's spell-list just isn't that crash hot for spontaneous spell-casters. The player commented: "Since a cleric can just swap spells for cures anyway, being a spontaneous caster doesn't add all that much".
Possible Suggestions/Solutions:
Charging is so effective with a Cavalier that it becomes TOO dominant a strategy. Ease away from stackable "to hit" bonuses while charging (even from a mount). Spirited Charge is part of the game, but a Cavalier can really increase its effectiveness thanks to all his bonuses while charging. (Challenge is just icing on the cake, Flanked was mitigated by Oath of Protection.)
Summoners take too much time to deal with. I think having only one instance of it Summon Monster X SLA is a good way of keeping the Summoner from dominating the game with a whole army. (Yes it's impolite to summon a whole bunch of monsters all at once, but when you have a small herd of centaurs bearing down on your character, you can't help but feel perhaps a little impropriety might be appropriate). With one instance active the Summoner would have had himself, an eidolon and maybe 1d3 elementals (or the like) to order about. Yes his turn will still take longer, but it discourages the Summon Spam route.
Anyway, once again I hope this playtest has helped develop my favourite fantasy RPG!
Summoners take too much time to deal with. I think having only one instance of it Summon Monster X SLA is a good way of keeping the Summoner from dominating the game with a whole army. (Yes it's impolite to summon a whole bunch of monsters all at once, but when you have a small herd of centaurs bearing down on your character, you can't help but feel perhaps a little impropriety might be appropriate). With one instance active the Summoner would have had himself, an eidolon and maybe 1d3 elementals (or the like) to order about. Yes his turn will still take longer, but it discourages the Summon Spam route.
There are two minor obstacles with that suggested fix.
First, while it mitigates the "summon spamming," it in no way eliminates it. Between the Summoner having access to the Summon Monster spells, and other casters in the party being less stingy on Summonings of their own (they are less inclined to save them, since the Summoner could "fill the void" if summons are needed later), there are still going to be spummonings if that is a tactic the group wants.
And second, limiting the SLAs to one active at a time puts the SLA pool into a realm similar to 3.5 Turn Undead. There will definitely be uses left over every day, making them a "wasted" class feature. This will lead to a desire to find other uses for them, similar to 3.5 Turn Undead (which lead to the often bemoaned Divine Metemagic).
The Summoner class will either cause problems in your game, or not. Limiting the number of active SLAs won't change that. It might reduce it... But is it worth the potential "risks?"
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If Paizo doesn't introduce anything equivalent to the 3.5 Turn Undead then that "risk" isn't really something to worry about.
The Oracle who was playing didn't feel a desire to summon any creatures (since any creatures he brought to play would be overshadowed by the Summoner's and would only last for 1 encounter max. The Summoner's minions last multiple encounters).
Further if people feel it'd lead to wasted uses per day, then reduce the uses per day? (maybe 1 or 2 + cha mod, leading to 5-6 uses rather than the 6-8 uses per day).
This playtest confirms everything I've seen so far with the SLA ability. It is simply too much too soon at too low a cost. This is not to say that is bad (I personally like the idea), but with the eidolon (which in my opinion is just fine and holds the place it should given the concept for the class) a sped up summon monster that many times per day is just a wee bit too much. My personal solution would be to limit the SLA to one active at a time, but compensate but giving the summon monster spells as bonus spells. It still allows the tactic of army building, but closer to the cost that others have to contend with.
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*shrug* I think getting into more than 1 fight within 5 minutes isn't very realistic. After looting, checking injuries, making sure your foes are dead and checking to see if there are any more immediate threats, the summons should have been gone( at least that's what I would rule, personally ). If that is the case only at higher levels would they last more than 1 combat( and then they would probably drop out sometime in the middle of the second combat ). And it would have brought the SLA use down to 1xencounter( roughly ) depending on cha score and what not.
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Seems a stingy interpretation of time taken for dungeon exploration. Unless my players specify otherwise, i assume they'll only spend about 2 minutes in a room. (Taking 20 not withstanding). Another minute to get to the next room. Still a good minute left on your summons. Most fights don't last 10 rounds, but i'd let him know his summons wink out on round 10 for simplicity.
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Replayed a slightly modified version of the Above Dungeon:
A whole different group of players playing the same pregens as above. In addition to a lvl 5 human paladin.
The Ruins Entrance:
Party becomes aware of 4 ogres at 80 ft. distance. Witch opens with hexes, Summoner plinks, Eidolon attacks, Oracle casts command (fall), Paladin charges in dealing some damage his camel spits nauseating opponents, Cavalier does the same turning one Ogre to mist (Critical hit on a spirited charge. Just to be sure am I interpreting this right: Lance deals x3 damage on a critical hit, and x3 damage for being a spirited charge. Cavalier ended up critting for 99 damage + 8 for challenge). Rogue shivs the Ogre that fell.
The remaining Ogre attacks the Cavalier. The Cavalier moves away from the Ogre. The Paladin, Eidolon and Oracle finish the first ogre, and each move on to different targets. Fight gets finished by the end of 3rd round.
The Temple Nexus
Once again the Oracle is aware of some of the Ogres in this large room, she warns her party members. The witch casts light on the Cavalier's banner. Combat begins. Summoner calls a lantern archon to aid in lighting the room and dealing with the evil ogres, sends his Eidolon into the room to fight an Ogre (since it has Darkvision). Rogue moves into position and readies an attack. Oracle orders an Ogre to approach, Ogre moves through the threatened area of three creatures and is sliced, diced, spat on and mashed. The party hears the sound of a door closing to the north.
Another Ogre runs towards the party from out of the range of the Oracle's Darkvision attacking the Paladin. Witch webs the ogre in combat with the Eidolon. Eidolon tears the Ogre apart with the help of a lantern archon. Summoner Plinks.
Fight finishes at around round 3. The witch uses her wand of cure light wounds to heal up the paladin, oracle and rogue who have been damaged. The cavalier did not mention that he had been damaged. The rogue starts picking a lock it will take 4 rounds to complete this. Lantern Archon winks out.
The cavalier follows the sound of the closing door.
Library
Ambush! He gets hit with a Javelin, in the ensuing combat madness breaks out. Magical darkness causes his banner of light to wink out. He enters single combat with an Ogre, the ogre crits killing the Cavalier (Cavalier was at 5 hp got hit for 25 damage). Ogre Mage attempts to charm the Paladin (fails dismally). Summoner summons some air elementals. The combat is brutal (thanks to total concealment granted by darkness spell). Ogre Mage uses cone of cold, heavily damaging many party members (and almost killing the Eidolon who was saved only through the Summoner's Life Link ability). Witch curses the Ogre Mage (50% chance he does nothing, Ogre Mage rolls a 1 on the save). This was a long fight but ultimately the surviving PCs were victorious on round 5, thanks to the Paladin's Smite, and Eidolon's fire damage. (One round after the Rogue stopped picking the lock).
Chamber of Light and Fire
Intrigued by the door the Rogue unlocked the party steps into the room, once inside they hear a distinct click, followed by the sounds of a ticking clock. This party spent a lot more time examining the room than the last one did (even though they uncovered the riddle relatively early). Still they managed to solve it with seconds to spare, retrieving the McGuffin of the sun goddess.
Since we were out of time, I didn't throw in the Centaur attack.
Still fun game.
Analysis:
The Oracle once again felt like she had no real role, since the summoner could buff and the witch could heal. She did land some killing blows on some Ogres, but just didn't feel any of her spells were interesting enough. I'm going to say it again: The Cleric List is not enough for a spontaneous caster to find that interesting. I've had 3 players play an Oracle, all of which had the same complaint.
Summoner- Nerf really hurt the class. If his lantern archon had lasted longer he could have used it to help the party search. He didn't particularly like just buffing and plinking. Eidolon got whacked a lot more (glass cannon, losing the AC from armour, i switched up some points to give him wing buffet attacks). He was rolling 4 attacks (5 when hasted) in a full attack action, but really only 1-2 of the attacks would hit. Still hit more consistently than the Paladin. Please give back minute/level summons, a little utility goes a long way.
Cavalier - the problem is Spirited Charge. A halfling on a riding dog is just death on a stick. I was very anal about lighting conditions (preventing him from using his challenge as often), but it is really easy to get spirited charge and a decent mount with a Cavalier. He died this session though, but that was due to negligence, not telling people he needed healing post-combat.
Witch - the player loved the Witch (didn't use sleep hex once), pretty much just full casting and occasionally Evil Eyeing enemies. She asked me to build her a christmas themed witch next, which sounds like fun.