Hello folks. Thanks for joining me for this double playtest. First off, I am seeing how well a small party stacks up against various creatures, and also mostly analyzing the witch's performance. The summoner also joins us in the second "week" of encounters.
My notation is as such. When there is a new day, I assume everyone starts fully healed, and I press through the several encounters I have set up. Each encounter is over leveled, save the air elemental. Since an equivalent CR encounter in Pathfinder is mostly mop-up in my experience, I decided to test the power of each class. The days are in-game, to show that the PCs have rested.
The new "week" is an entirely new day in real life. I felt this was important to note since the new playtester joined us on that day, and this way I myself can keep track of my notes, especially as to when they were taken.
Feel free to post questions! I was there, I can elaborate on confusing circumstances.
Playtest Report: Day 1
Participating Characters: Con Agra the Man-Witch. A half-orc who has a goat named Cabra, Healing and Evil Eye
Grogma the half-orc Cavalier with a camel mount named Dwight and Order of the Lion pledge.
Day 1 and 2: level 2 characters
Day 3 and 4: level 3 characters
Battle tests:
Day 1
1 small air elemental (CR 1)
Both party members untouched, Evil Eye helped avoid getting hit
1 giant crab (CR 3 for two person group)
The Cavalier destroyed it, but got a bit injured. The witch lowered its AC and wasted a sleep spell
1 ogre (roughly CR 4, overwhelming)
The first fight, the ogre got crit by the cavalier and dropped first round. Second fight, it ran for the cavalier and knocked him out in one round. The camel spit, the witch Eyed it, and the ogre went from a +7 to hit to a +3. The witch brought the cavalier back up, who then dodged the ogre’s now ineffective attack and brought it down low. The cavalier then got hit by the ogre’s club once more and died the camel flying into a frenzy and knocking the ogre out with a bite.
Day 2 (full recovery)
2 Sahuagin ( 2 CR 2s, tough fight)
Sahuagin went first and closed with the cavalier while one shot at a distance. The cavalier took damage, but nothing major. The Cavalier did around 13 damage to the sahuagin, sending it into a frenzy next turn. The witch commanded the ranged sahuagin to drop prone, and it did. The frenzied sahuagin got no hits and died next turn. The other sahuagin closed with the witch, who moved and cured the cavalier’s wounds with a touch. The sahuagin got a good hit in on the witch, and the cavalier took it out as the witch gave it a crossbow bolt to chew on.
1 yeth hound (CR 3)
The yeth approached from the air. It immediately bayed, panicking the man-witch and sending him running in a most un-manly fashion. The cavalier followed, trying to make sure his friend snapped out of it. Thanks to its fly speed, the yeth caught up to the cowardly witch and chomped him hard. The cavalier charged it, miraculously not dropping it thanks to its DR. The witch got up on his turn, and then got staggered by the yeth’s bite. The witch tried to run later, as the cavalier flanked with the witch’s goat,
Killing the yeth by round five. The witch got a bad roll and was punished for it.
Day 3
Yeti (CR 4)
This match looked like it was going to be easy. The witch mage armored himself in the first turn, and then the cavalier went to town on the yeti, doing 28 damage with a regular charge. The yeti, being mighty steamed, gave the cavalier a good one claw. The camel spit at the yeti and was punished with a claw, while the witch gave the Yeti an evil eye, reducing the saves even further than from the sickening spit of the camel. The cavalier gave the yeti another good shot, bringing it within an inch of its life. The yeti got lucky, rolled high on both claws, and rended the cavalier asunder, killing him in a flurry of claws. The Witch completed his spell, blinding the yeti, and the camel, angry that its master had died AGAIN bit the yeti into unconsciousness. The witch stabilized it, sure that the rare creature would sell for a fine price, and hopefully raise enough money to bring his friend back to life.
Day 4
Centaur (CR 3)
Cave Fisher (CR 2)
Utterly decimated does not even begin to describe what happened.
The hallway is 15 feet wide. The cave fisher in front of the centaur. Ideally, the cave fisher pulls something in, and this strange subterranean centaur goes to town on it along with the cave fisher.
It was not to be.
The cavalier goes first and charges (How many times have you heard that one?). He almost, along with the camel’s bite, drops the fisher. The centaur? Gets slept.
The following rounds involve a complicated charge maneuver by the cavalier, the centaur waking up to being damaged, and then killed by a goat with cause moderate wounds critting on his derriere.
Overall the cavalier can do tons of damage, dropping something even one level above him in one round. The witch is very support and has a bunch of save or dies that Evil eye can help out with. OR the witch gets to try to avoid death when faced with something (like a crab) that is immune to these. Evil Eye got used at least once a fight, and saved the party against the ogre where another attack would have failed. The witch needs melee support, but when it gets it, the witch can tear some things up at low level, with spells like sleep.
Second Playtest:
Con Agra and Grogma are joined by another fellow adventurer, Faulcon the human summoner, and his Eidolon, Badazz. All of them are third level.
Week 2, Day 1
Encounter 1: Deionychus and Drow Noble. (CR 5-6)
The Eidolon charged the drow noble and kept her down, ensuring that she was useless for the fight. The cavalier charged the Dionychus and took in down in two. The witch just stared at the combat menacingly and healed the eidolon after the fight.
Encounter 2: Barghest and a Lion (CR 6-7)
So the lion got decimated by a timely spider. The witch was horribly ineffectual, blowing every spell save grease on the Barghest with no effect, even after an evil eye. The Barghest used blink in round one, culminating in an eight round battle at chipping away the damn thing’s health. The lion’s decimation resulted in the summoner summoning a spider with SM II SLA. The thing entangles on a ranged touch, and can do this eight times. Combined with the long summon time… It de-buffed both monsters multiple times to great effect with the Evil eye.
And then the barghest got finished off by a long overdue charge. The cavalier still seems to be doing quite well.
The summoner re-summons his eidolon, the Witch’s familiar is out for a while, and the cavalier is untouched.
Encounter 3: Giant Frilled Lizard (CR 6)
Destroyed would be an understatement. It charged, then got de-buffed to death. First the camel’s spit? -2 on attack rolls and saves. Then, the witch cursed it for a -2 to attacks and then again for -2 AC the next round. That evil eye may not come in handy all the time, but when it does… well, I think the party’s no-hit record this fight speaks for itself.
God, that poor CR 5 never knew what hit it.
Week 2 Day 2
Everyone levels to 4th level. The Eidolon becomes large, The cavalier’s challenge becomes a bit better, and the Witch gets slumber and a pearl of power.
Encounter 1: Anklosaurus (CR 6-7)
Well, the Anklosaurus won initiative. He rushed forward, his tail swinging right at the camel-mounted cavalier. Boom! The cavalier has six hp left.
The witch tries to stifle its attacks, but no. Only one round of attack penalties for this behemoth. The summoner’s eidolon tumbles in and misses the dino, while the cavalier valiantly tries to make one last hit, failing miserably. The beast takes another swing, killing the cavalier instantly. The camel flies into a rage, going into close combat with the creature who had killed its master. The summoner pops a small earth elemental into existence. The elemental helps the eidolon out, and together they contribute a few points of damage from the eidolon’s strikes. The witch tries a grease spell as the summoner summons a spider to net the monstrosity and the anklosaurus pounds away at the camel, nearly taking its head off. In the next round, a lucky miss occurs with the dino flailing about. The witch seals its fate with an enfeebling ray as the summoner makes another earth elemental appear for the coup de grace.
The last fight is a good example of the witch and summoner standing side by side. The summoner does stuff while the witch goes “oh, if people on my team die I am dead, I am so dead.” The witch seems to be balanced fine, I just have horrible luck with the saves (Stupid anklosaurus kept rolling high!). Our cavalier got taken out. We should have died. But no, the summoner summons three things (Half his daily uses) and with some minor debuffs from the witch the situation gets turned around. The summoner can do stuff by himself. The witch? Maybe a few more defensive spells would be nice, because one made save and the witch is just taking up space. That‘s why I used so much Evil Eye. A 10% extra chance to fail all saves, when coupled with the camel’s spit, a 20%? Yes, please. I’m planning on picking up spell focus at level five, because level 3 was devoted to Brew Potion. The summoner, so far, seems to need charisma for very little besides qualifying for his spells. A scant few of his spells even involve saves, and the few times he can a non-summoning spell it was grease. I want to like the witch, but getting in to touch things as a caster is a bad idea, and sending in your familiar a worse one.
So as you may have noticed I put overwhelmingly powerful encounters up against the PCs. This is because I wanted to see where they would break, and I’m not just being sadistic. The Cavalier is a tough nut to crack until you introduce a bruiser like an Ogre or Anklosaurus into the mix, and then he stays about level. The Witch is so support he makes bards look like frontline fighters. Evil Eye is by far the best option because even if they make their save, the creature still gets the penalty, and on top of that 30 ft range. It seems like you’re getting in too close, but backpacking the cavalier seemed to work, since the witch is just using non-damaging spells, save a few.
The summoner… Where do I start? For one, I actually TRIED to kill the part with the anklosaurus. The cavalier went down as expected. Even if the witch had healed, save a lucky roll, the cavalier would have eaten dirt. The summoner stopped it in its tracks, and beat it down with low level summons. I’m talking small size earth elementals and a monstrous spider! Maybe those three and the camel could start their own adventuring party.
The eidolon? Mostly ineffective. Sure, it got three attacks and it could trip, but it was at most an extra fighter with bad damage. The main problem is all the summons. They clogged up the anklosaurus, who, had he even tried to over run and get at the summoner, not that his int of 1 would recognize what a summoning spell is or who was doing it, it would have eaten three attacks of opportunity, dropping it in all likelihood.
How about this: The summoned creatures from the summoner’s spells need to have less appearing at once. Maybe a range on them would help?
Oh, and it turns out that the summoner was cheating, there is no spider of any kind on the summon monster lists. Excuse me while I throttle him in his sleep. But the thing is, an aid another action could have done this as well, so the problem still remains.
Week 2 Day 2Everyone levels to 4th level. The Eidolon becomes large, The cavalier’s challenge becomes a bit better, and the Witch gets slumber and a pearl of power.
You mention "the summoner cheating" at the end of the post. I thought I should bold up another instance. Large is min level 6.
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You mention "the summoner cheating" at the end of the post. I thought I should bold up another instance. Large is min level 6.
Week 2 Day 2Everyone levels to 4th level. The Eidolon becomes large, The cavalier’s challenge becomes a bit better, and the Witch gets slumber and a pearl of power.
Also, if the eidolon dies the summoner can't re-summon him until the next day. There was 1 re-summon mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was a dismiss/summon action or if the eidolon had been un-summoned do to killing damage.
Thanks for the play test data! I have been advocating having only 1 instance of the Summon Monster SLA active at a time. Either the next Summon Monster doesn't work, or it automatically dismisses the first instance.
I don't thing one summon at time should be a rule. Some groups can deal with it and some can't. If the player with the summon is not efficient, or if the other players really hate waiting then make adjustments for your group, but to make a rule based on a non-universal truth makes no sense to me.
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I don't thing one summon at time should be a rule. Some groups can deal with it and some can't. If the player with the summon is not efficient, or if the other players really hate waiting then make adjustments for your group, but to make a rule based on a non-universal truth makes no sense to me.
That wasn't the reason for the 1 summon at a time house rule option. the reason was turning a challenging fight into a trivial fight by over summoning.
Also, if the eidolon dies the summoner can't re-summon him until the next day. There was 1 re-summon mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was a dismiss/summon action or if the eidolon had been un-summoned do to killing damage.
This one is hard to call. Since there's no duration on the Eidolon, there's a very good chance it was still out from the day before, so it was readily available for summoning. I know I wouldn't be dismissing it if it wasn't half-dead. The whole 'Outsiders don't need sleep' thing makes it an excellent night guard.
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Very interesting. The class rolls certainly sort themselves out, don't they?
I did notice that most of the encounters were against only a handful of enemies and they were usualy monsters. It'd be interesting to see how Dwight & Co. would do against a large number of low CR foes, or creatures with class levels. A throng of orcs or kobolds with a boss, or an advenuring party.
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Also, if the eidolon dies the summoner can't re-summon him until the next day. There was 1 re-summon mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was a dismiss/summon action or if the eidolon had been un-summoned do to killing damage.This one is hard to call. Since there's no duration on the Eidolon, there's a very good chance it was still out from the day before, so it was readily available for summoning. I know I wouldn't be dismissing it if it wasn't half-dead. The whole 'Outsiders don't need sleep' thing makes it an excellent night guard.
That is my point. It wasn't specified if the Eidolon was re-summoned because he was dismissed, or re-summoned because he died.
Also, if the eidolon dies the summoner can't re-summon him until the next day. There was 1 re-summon mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was a dismiss/summon action or if the eidolon had been un-summoned do to killing damage.
It's very hard to kill the eidolon, if it goes unconscious the summoner can dismiss it. I can't see the eidolon actually getting killed and havign to wait until the next day unless it drops to negative con in a single hit.
Thanks for the play test data! I have been advocating having only 1 instance of the Summon Monster SLA active at a time. Either the next Summon Monster doesn't work, or it automatically dismisses the first instance.
I think this is a decent house rule but would prefer to not see it in the book. I don't think it would be horrible but sometimes it's nice for the PCs to be able to Nova.
I think this is a decent house rule but would prefer to not see it in the book. I don't think it would be horrible but sometimes it's nice for the PCs to be able to Nova.
This. If your PCs have a tendency to Nova, they just get smashed up nice in the next fight. As a DM and a player, I like crazy-huge epic battles (and most people I've played with do too). I plan battles more often than not to take up most of your resources (which lets me play around with some pretty powerful monsters and NPCs). A limit on summons could turn the tides in some battles, especially when we're discussing the summoner and its extended duration summons.
Let me try to answer a few questions and provide a bit more input.
Serisan: You mention "the summoner cheating" at the end of the post. I thought I should bold up another instance. Large is min level 6.
As it turns out it wasn't large, thank all that is holy. I should've noticed when it did less damage than the camel.
Draeke Raefel: There was 1 re-summon mentioned and I wasn't sure if it was a dismiss/summon action or if the eidolon had been un-summoned do to killing damage.
He dismissed and resummoned it.
DM_aka_Dudemeister: Summon Monster II has your choice of Celestial or Fiendish Giant Spider (depending on the caster's alignment of course).
Ah, that's in the PDF, but not my print copy. Still, geez that spider is powerful.
wraithstrike: I don't thing one summon at time should be a rule. Some groups can deal with it and some can't. If the player with the summon is not efficient, or if the other players really hate waiting then make adjustments for your group, but to make a rule based on a non-universal truth makes no sense to me.
Let me put it this way. Your party of two goes up against a group of four kobolds. Just as you start to defeat them, more kobolds pour out from the sides of the walls, the ceiling and your backpack, each stabbing you with spears made from evil and throwing nets on you. As long as one kobold lives, these kobolds keep coming to kill you. And you can only hit one of them per round.
A universal truth is best exposited by a Magic card I once read: "An army of squirrels is still an army."
Xuttah: Very interesting. The class rolls certainly sort themselves out, don't they?
I did notice that most of the encounters were against only a handful of enemies and they were usualy monsters. It'd be interesting to see how Dwight & Co. would do against a large number of low CR foes, or creatures with class levels. A throng of orcs or kobolds with a boss, or an advenuring party.
More likely than not, the Cavalier would be able to divide and conquer, but it's worth testing out.