So first, seems like the compressed spell list makes metamagic more expensive for summoners. An effect that bumps spell level 2 levels is a lot more costly when your highest level spell is 6th level. For example a summoner can only quicken second level spells while a wizard can quicken 5th level spells.
Strangely this means that metamagic items are significantly more valuable for summoners (and bards I suppose). A summoner with a metamagic rod of quicken, lesser is going to be quickening black tentacles and other spells which are normally reserved for the more expensive rods.
This probably means summoners are even less likely to use meta-magic feats than other casters unless it's through items. I'm not sure there is any real 'fix' for this or even if it should be fixed. More just an observation.
There are ways around that limitation, such as epic caster extra spell slots. What I am thinking about is at 10th level the Quicken Spell Like ability for the Summoner's Summon Monster ability.
What I am thinking about is at 10th level the Quicken Spell Like ability for the Summoner's Summon Monster ability.
Impossible. The Summoner's summon monster ability is at minimum equivalent to a spell of (Summoner level -1), and Quicken SLA is only usable on SLAs of spell level (Summoner level/2 -4). There's also the fact that Quicken SLA explicitly doesn't work on SLAs that duplicate spells that have a > 1 full round cast time, so it's doubly-barred.
Impossible. The Summoner's summon monster ability is at minimum equivalent to a spell of (Summoner level -1), and Quicken SLA is only usable on SLAs of spell level (Summoner level/2 -4). There's also the fact that Quicken SLA explicitly doesn't work on SLAs that duplicate spells that have a > 1 full round cast time, so it's doubly-barred.
You need to brush up again on those definitions.
Not only is it not greater than a 1 round casting time (it is one round, therefore eligible by casting time limitation), but it is the equivalent of a first level spell if used as Summon Monster I, which is the maximum level of spell able to be Quickened using Quicken Spell Like Ability (pg. 316, Pathfinder Bestiary Empower SLA/Quicken SLA chart). You would not be able to utilize Summon Monster II & greater Quickened, however, your Summon Monster I uses of your summoning pool would be able to be Quickened.
I wasn't thinking about meta magic on the SLA, thats a whole other issue.
The Summoner's summon monster ability is at minimum equivalent to a spell of (Summoner level -1), and Quicken SLA is only usable on SLAs of spell level (Summoner level/2 -4)
SLA should probably be considered whatever spell level it would be on the wizard spell list (SM IV is a 4th level spell)... if you base spell level on the summoners list then the Summon Monster IV SLA is equivalent to a third level spell. To take Quicken SLA for the Summon Monster IV SLA you would have to be 14th level... and that assumes you can apply the feat to a downgraded version of the SLA.
Seems like a gray area... you certainly couldn't quicken your highest level summons in any case.
You need to brush up again on those definitions.
Not only is it not greater than a 1 round casting time (it is one round, therefore eligible by casting time limitation), but it is the equivalent of a first level spell if used as Summon Monster I, which is the maximum level of spell able to be Quickened using Quicken Spell Like Ability (pg. 316, Pathfinder Bestiary Empower SLA/Quicken SLA chart). You would not be able to utilize Summon Monster II & greater Quickened, however, your Summon Monster I uses of your summoning pool would be able to be Quickened.
You seem to be implying that as you progress the ability gives you Summon Monster I and Summon Monster II which is not the case. There is one pool of summons and the power of that pool increases as you level.
At 3rd level you get to use Summon Monster II 3+CHA bonus times
You don't have 3+CHA uses of Summon Monster I, 3+CHA of Summon Monster II...
Maybe I'm misreading your post?
You need to brush up again on those definitions.
Not only is it not greater than a 1 round casting time (it is one round, therefore eligible by casting time limitation)
Perhaps it is you who need to brush up?
A "full-round" casting time is one which takes a full-round action. A "1 round" casting time is one which takes an entire round and doesn't actually cast until the start of the caster's next turn. Thus, a "1 round" casting time is greater than a "full-round" casting time, and disallowed by Quicken SLA.but it is the equivalent of a first level spell if used as Summon Monster I
You can't do this. The ability grows as you do, and every two levels you get a replacement to the previous summon monster. In other words, you don't have summon monster 1, summoner monster 2, summoner monster 3, summoner monster 4, and summon monster 5 at 10th level; you only have summon monster 5. There is one pool of uses per day; Jason clarified this yesterday.
You seem to be implying that as you progress the ability gives you Summon Monster I and Summon Monster II which is not the case. There is one pool of summons and the power of that pool increases as you level.
At 3rd level you get to use Summon Monster II 3+CHA bonus times
You don't have 3+CHA uses of Summon Monster I, 3+CHA of Summon Monster II...Maybe I'm misreading your post?
You are correct on the one pool for all the levels of Summon Monster use, just as I meant (I may not have been clear on that).
Let me clarify - even though you may be able to summon a creature with your summoning pool from the levels II, III and IV list, you would only be able to quicken the SLA when you use it as a Summon Monster I spell, which you may accomplish at 10th level, according to pg. 316 of the Pathfinder Bestiary.A first level SLA may be Quickened with Quicken SLA at 10th. Use your Summon Monster I use from your summoning pool, you get a quickened summoning.
Use it as a Summon Monster II, normal activation time (1 round).
Perhaps it is you who need to brush up?
A "full-round" casting time is one which takes a full-round action. A "1 round" casting time is one which takes an entire round and doesn't actually cast until the start of the caster's next turn. Thus, a "1 round" casting time is greater than a "full-round" casting time, and disallowed by Quicken SLA.
No, what the Quicken Spell Like ability feat disallows is spell that have a casting time of greater than 1 round. It does not say "disallow any spell with a casting time greater than one round or that is a full round action." It specifically states only spells with casting times greater than 1 round are not eligible. Summon Monster I has a casting time of 1 round. It's eligible. When it takes effect is a moot point.
You can't do this. The ability grows as you do, and every two levels you get a replacement to the previous summon monster. In other words, you don't have summon monster 1, summoner monster 2, summoner monster 3, summoner monster 4, and summon monster 5 at 10th level; you only have summon monster 5. There is one pool of uses per day; Jason clarified this yesterday.
What Jason said was that the uses of the Summon Monster ability were from a communal pool, you do not get Summon Monster I 3/day + Cha, then the same for Summon Monster II, etc. You uses are 3/day + Cha, regardless of the level for Summon Monster that you choose to use. Likewise, you do not lose the ability to access Summon Monster I when you gain Summon Monster II, and so on.
Hey, I don't mean to break up the cat fight, but I felt a few things should be pointed out:
First, Once the summoner hits level 3 he no longer has Summon Monster I- it becomes Summon Monster II, which *can* be used to summon 1d3 creatures from SM1's list. That said, it's completely ineligible for QSLA.
Secondly, the ability is cast as a standard action, specifically overriding the spell's normal casting time.
First, Once the summoner hits level 3 he no longer has Summon Monster I- it becomes Summon Monster II, which *can* be used to summon 1d3 creatures from SM1's list. That said, it's completely ineligible for QSLA.
Perhaps I missed the part where it says the Summoner loses the ability to cast Summon Monster I, let me see...
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summonercan cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this
ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components.
Hmm, can't see where is loses access to the previous level of Summon Monster, only that he gains the ability to cast a higher level Summon Monster. Guess we'll have to throw the question to Jason to have answered definitively.
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner
can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number
of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He
can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures
remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per
level). At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power
of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him
to summon more powerful creatures (to a maximum
of summon monster IX at 17th level). At 19th level, this
ability can be used as gate or summon monster IX. If used
as gate, the summoner must pay any required material
components.
Bam. Right there.
No, what the Quicken Spell Like ability feat disallows is spell that have a casting time of greater than 1 round.
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Like I said before, I threw the question into the Round 2 Rules Questions thread for Jason to answer, since he did not clarify Iliyan's example of Summon Monster pool uses Jason's post.
Iliyan wrote:
Question regarding Summoner's SLA's.
Does a Summoner's Summon Monster ability work independently for each Summon Monster level, or is it drawn from a single "pool".
For instance:
Summoner level 3:
Summon Monster I; Cha+3/day
Summon Monster II; Cha+3/dayOR
Summon Monster(I or II); Cha+3/day
Just 1 pool of uses...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Sigh.PRD wrote:
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Yes, yes, I know - the spell itself (Summon Monster I) has a casting time of 1 round. Not greater than one round, one round. It is eligible. However, as Sean FitzSimon pointed out, the Summoner's Summon Monster is cast as a standard action. Once again, making it eligible within the casting time limitation of Quicken Spell Like Ability. That is, of course, if Jason clarifies whether or not the Summoner retains access to lower level Summon Monster abilities once they gain the next higher level one.
Well, Jason clarified the Summoner's Summon Monster Ability here.
Looks like as long as you use it as a Summon Monster I, you can take the feat, and a Summoner with a Cha. of 16 could burn through all his Summon Monster uses in 3 rounds (1 quickened Summon Monster I + 1 higher level Summon Monster/round).
Potential to field up to 18 creatures (15 potentially from Summon Monster III, 3 from Summon Monster I) in the span of 18 seconds, now that is impressive.
Well, Jason clarified the Summoner's Summon Monster Ability here.
Looks like as long as you use it as a Summon Monster I, you can take the feat, and a Summoner with a Cha. of 16 could burn through all his Summon Monster uses in 3 rounds (1 quickened Summon Monster I + 1 higher level Summon Monster/round).
Potential to field up to 18 creatures (15 potentially from Summon Monster III, 3 from Summon Monster I) in the span of 18 seconds, now that is impressive.
It seems it would indeed be POSSIBLE, though i wouldn't suggest it. If you have a daily number of uses of your SLA is getting that extra dire rat or fire beetle out on the field worth burning one of your uses when you have access to summon monster V, and could summon something much more powerful with the daily uses? Also, what exactly will a summoned monster from the rank 1 do in a level 10 encounter? I guess it would be novel if you wanted to see how many tokens you can put on the board as fast as possible, but aside from creating a small zoo in under 20 seconds i don't see it being a worthwhile feat or use of the summon monster SLA.
Yes, yes, I know - the spell itself (Summon Monster I) has a casting time of 1 round. Not greater than one round, one round. It is eligible.
Once again: no, it isn't.
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
One round is greater than one full round. I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense in plain English, but it's how the terms are defined. A spell cast as a full round action goes off immediately, on your turn; a spell with a 1 round casting time goes off at the beginning of your next turn. Summon Monster spells fit the latter category.
However, as Sean FitzSimon pointed out, the Summoner's Summon Monster is cast as a standard action. Once again, making it eligible within the casting time limitation of Quicken Spell Like Ability.
Let's move that bold tag...
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Quicken SLA only cares about the casting time of the spell which is duplicated, not the SLA itself. You could give a monster shocking grasp as an SLA with a 10-minute casting time, and it could be quickened. Summon Monster cannot be, even though the SLA is a standard action.
Once again: no, it isn't.
Once again, yes it is.
One round is greater than one full round. I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense in plain English, but it's how the terms are defined. A spell cast as a full round action goes off immediately, on your turn; a spell with a 1 round casting time goes off at the beginning of your next turn. Summon Monster spells fit the latter category.
Here is the definition for a spell that takes 1 round to cast: Page 187 & 213, Pathfinder Core Rulebook -
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.So, technically, a spell that is 1 round casting time is cast in less than 1 round. Since it takes effect just before your next turn, that makes it shorter than one round since you can act normally on your next turn (e.g - you're not still casting the spell).
As for the prd it says a "spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round." No where does it say "a spell that takes a full action, or a spell that takes effect next round."
Summon Monster has a casting time of 1 round, no matter how you cut it, it is one round. It is eligible for both the Quicken Spell feat, and the Summoner's Summon Monster SLA is eligible for quicken Spell Like Ability as well, since the base spell is 1 round casting time.
Honestly, I don't know why you think a 1 round casting time is more than 1 round when the book very clearly says it's not, and that you can't apply that feat, since it would be a legal feat to take since the spell like ability meets all the qualifications.
Maybe you as a DM would disallow this and that is your reasoning behind your argument, even though taking this feat should be allowed according to the rules.
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Malagfin, I agree with you on the round issue
a casting time of 1 round = 1 full round action (even though it technically 'goes off' in the following round'
But i'm going to disagree with you on the ability it's self
'...the power of this ability increases by one spell level...'
Would indicate that the power itself would change
'At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monter IX.'
It specifically states that the power can be used as one or the other. While, yes, the wording probably could be cleared up a bit; given these two excerpts I think the intent of it being 'only the highest' is clear.
Also since summon monster IX states generally 'from a lower list' it's already inclusive back to I.
Malagfin, I agree with you on the round issue
a casting time of 1 round = 1 full round action (even though it technically 'goes off' in the following round'
But i'm going to disagree with you on the ability it's self
'...the power of this ability increases by one spell level...'
Would indicate that the power itself would change
'At 19th level, this ability can be used as gate or summon monter IX.'
It specifically states that the power can be used as one or the other. While, yes, the wording probably could be cleared up a bit; given these two excerpts I think the intent of it being 'only the highest' is clear.
Also since summon monster IX states generally 'from a lower list' it's already inclusive back to I.
Aestolia, Jason already said that the Summoner keeps access to lower level Summon Monster spells once he gains a higher level of Summon Monster here.
Thank you though for agreeing with me on the casting time issue though. I still cannot figure out why Zurai and tejón think a 1 round casting time is more than one round, and that they dislike the idea of Quickened Spell Like Ability so much. Maybe it's due to the fact that it does carry over to the next round, even though the action itself takes technically less than one round.It's like iZOMBIE wrote, at 10th level, fielding a bunch of free action level I monsters is nothing but easy fodder to be wiped, impressive in seeing it done but not good for much else.
I also noticed that metamagic rods will be very useful for the summoner, just as with the bard :)
In particular, given the summoner's huge number of standard actions, it seems that a metamagic rod (quicken) is like finding the holy grail for summoners in terms of action economy.
Heh, indeed everything about my observations regarding meta applies to the bards also. I've never played a bard though :)