The one thing I keep coming across that drives me crazy is the misconception that in 3.5 or PFRPG stepping into a monsters square provkes an AoO. Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving *OUT* of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
In 3.5 Skip Williams clarified this, see Common Misconception #1 in the link below...
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041026a
I wouldn't make such a fuss, but I see it on a regular basis in posts, and I wonder if people are house ruling it in or just don't know...
The one thing I keep coming across that drives me crazy is the misconception that in 3.5 or PFRPG stepping into a monsters square provkes an AoO. Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving *OUT* of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
In 3.5 Skip Williams clarified this, see Common Misconception #1 in the link below...
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041026a
I wouldn't make such a fuss, but I see it on a regular basis in posts, and I wonder if people are house ruling it in or just don't know...
I have actually never heard anyone say entering a threatened square provoked an attack of opportunity.
You are right that leaving a threatened square and actions within a threatened square are the two primary (almost exclusive) instances provoking AoO.
If people think otherwise I think it is lack of knowledge rather than house ruling. As a house rule it makes very little sense.
Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?
Nope, not misunderstanding. It's just a very "gamey" concept that takes an example or two to grasp.
Note is very good with explaining AoOs in the PRD.
In this combat, the fighter and the sorcerer fight an ogre and his goblin buddy.
#1: The fighter can safely approach this way without provoking an attack of opportunity, as he does not pass through a square threatened by the ogre (who has 10 feet of reach) or the goblin.
#2: If the fighter approaches this way, he provokes two attacks of opportunity since he passes through a square both creatures threaten.
#3: The sorcerer moves away using a withdraw action. The first square she leaves is not threatened as a result, and she can thus move away from the goblin safely, but when she leaves the second square, she provokes an attack of opportunity from the ogre (who has 10 feet of reach). She could instead limit her movement to a 5-foot step, as a free action, and not provoke any attacks of opportunity.
If someone understands that picture and the associated text, they basically understand AoOs from movement.
The one thing I keep coming across that drives me crazy is the misconception that in 3.5 or PFRPG stepping into a monsters square provkes an AoO. Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?
I'm not entirely sure if you really mean "into a monster's square" rather then "into a monster's threathened area" - but if so then YES it generally gives them an AoO on you.
In most situations a monster treathens the squares adjecent to themselves as you said - and to move INTO their square (so as to sneak past, hide between their legs or give them a close hug) you generally are moving out of this adjecent square which they do threathen.So yes, discounting other factors that unable them to threathen the square you are leaving so as to enter their square, you will provoke an AoO.
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misconception that in 3.5 or PFRPG stepping into a monsters square provkes an AoO. Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?
The rules are clear, but most people don't read the rules.
They see a monster/PC move and the DM asks for an AoO.
So when they see a monster move that is to their disadvantage, they ask for the AoO not understanding that one doesn't apply.
It takes closely reading and understanding the rules before playing to notice the subtle difference or a few times where it doesn't apply to make it click.
Everyone had this problem at first, I'd wager even you had it once or twice back in 1999 but you just forgot.
I'd go as far as saying it's not at all clear and here's why.
The PF core book, on page 193, says:
"Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures."
The 3.5 rules don't have that language, but even so, it's not as clear as you'd think. Under Big and Little Creatures in combat, page 149, it says this:
"Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a
natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent
squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee.
This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent."
If you're reading the rules for movement strictly, you can say that the AoO comes because the moving creature is leaving a square threatened by the defending creature. But since this bit of text doesn't make it clear that the AoO is from that aspect of moving, it's pretty excusable that readers might think the act of entering another creature's square is the triggering action. Overrun and Bullrush don't exactly serve to give a different impression since, in both cases, the defender gets an AoO as the attacker takes his action.
The 3.5 DMG doesn't help much. Under the same basic heading on page 29 (subheading Very Small Creatures), it says:
"Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine creatures have no natural reach. They must enter an opponent's square (and thus be subject to an attack of opportunity) in order to attack that opponent in melee unless they are aremed with weapons that give them at least 5 feet of reach."
So there's where people get the impression that moving into an opponent's square provokes an AoO - the 3.5 and PF rules.
The one I see most often is when someone gets charged.
DM: The monster charges you *starts to roll dice*
Player: I get an attack of opportunity right?
DM: *bewildered look on face* ... no.
I understand the thought process, charging is seen as reckless (hence the -2 to AC) so it is reasonable to assume that an AoO would be drawn, but that is not true by the rules. Besides, would the players truly want the rules working in the monsters favor in that way? Doubtful.
Entering a square occupied by an unfriendly creature always provokes an AOO from that creature. It's the only way tiny and smaller creatures can get AOOs, actually.
The one thing I keep coming across that drives me crazy is the misconception that in 3.5 or PFRPG stepping into a monsters square provkes an AoO. Am I somehow misunderstanding something or is this just not clear enough?I'm not entirely sure if you really mean "into a monster's square" rather then "into a monster's threathened area" - but if so then YES it generally gives them an AoO on you.
In most situations a monster treathens the squares adjecent to themselves as you said - and to move INTO their square (so as to sneak past, hide between their legs or give them a close hug) you generally are moving out of this adjecent square which they do threathen.So yes, discounting other factors that unable them to threathen the square you are leaving so as to enter their square, you will provoke an AoO.
Sorry, to clarify what I was saying, once you move your first incremental step into the monsters threat range, you DO NOT incur an attack of opportunity (per the clarifaction by Skip Williams, and the rules haven't really changed there), then if you take any other further movement (say closing the distance on an ogre still an incremental step away) then they get an AoO against you. A creature with no effective reach against a creature with 5 foot or more effectively is like the ogre and a regular sized PC race, it's just smaller scale with the same thing.
The reason this is a big deal to me is I have been a guest in a few games recently where the DM stated it was a house rule. There was a situation each time where there was a known dangerous monster that effectively would have done a good bit of damage on a hit and the melee characters did not want to approach it even though it only had a 5 foot reach, because they didn't want to get whacked. Each time I was playing an arcane caster and unleashed hell from afar, but the melee characters just stood there and took out NDSs and PSPs while they waited for the monster to approach so they would be the ones to get AoO.
I asked many of them later how they felt, and they said the game was pretty boring and they liked playing melee characters still. In the end it's only a game, and to me that which is boring does not belongin my game. I really hate penalizing the melee characters for doing their jobs or making them wait, as melee characters should get most their use in combat.
Entering a square occupied by an unfriendly creature always provokes an AOO from that creature. It's the only way tiny and smaller creatures can get AOOs, actually.
I appreciate the reply, but where are you pulling his ruling from friend? Larger creatures have the advantage for being larger and having reach. Tiny and smaller creatures often act in swarms or have abilities to make up them being small unless the CR is horribly low, and with the size penalties, many aren't intended as direct combatants anyways. Reach is a major advantage, hence a medium or small monk versus say... a cat? That cat is probably toast if it attacks the monk. They're getting the AoO because the monk is so much bigger than the cat, just like an ogre dwarfs a dwarf (pardon the pun).
I disagree a little with what you're saying about smaller creatures, but I have heard any time a creature enters inside your occupied space (square or hex on a grid) you get an attack, but I think it is a shortcut derived from the fact that the character first enters your threatened space (5 foot for a PC race), then move a second time within. A monk tumbling is a good example of this.
Let me ask this though, if I am the monk and I have a 5 foot effective reach, why would I enter the space of the cat when I can hit it from the space adjacent to it?
The one I see most often is when someone gets charged.
DM: The monster charges you *starts to roll dice*
Player: I get an attack of opportunity right?
DM: *bewildered look on face* ... no.I understand the thought process, charging is seen as reckless (hence the -2 to AC) so it is reasonable to assume that an AoO would be drawn, but that is not true by the rules. Besides, would the players truly want the rules working in the monsters favor in that way? Doubtful.
I agree. Isn't that what the readied action to brace a weapon is for?
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Hey Karkarasa -
Sounds a bit wonky to ask fighters to stand around and wait. I enjoy both narrativist play, as well as gamist and simulationist - so when I play with dungeon tiles, minis, line of sight indicators, combat tiers, etc., I really appreciate the sophistication of combat choices available in v.3.5 and Pathfinder RPG.
The best way I describe AOOs to newer players is using the verbiage, "when you leave a threatened square." Sounds like semantics, but it really helps them understand more quickly. For example:
>Banlar, Priest of Law, approaches the Ogre who threatens 10 feet around its space due to using a reach weapon such as a sharp spear. Banlar can enter the outer most square (a threatened one) safely without provoking an AOO. Banlar would likely then attack, or if this ends his turn he can just stay there without provoking an AOO.
>>If Banlar proceeds another 5' to hit the Ogre with his mace (not a reach weapon) he would provoke the AOO as he leaves a threatened square.
>>In cases of Pathfinder RPG, actions such as bullrush or grapple are handled very easily with CMB vs. CMD, and adjudicated based on feats such as (Improved Grapple, Improved Bullrush, etc. which would negate the AOO).
Finally, using the illustration (provided above in a previous post), you can see how the first square does not provoke, but leaving it to go to another threatened square does.
Also, I find that providing players with clarity on the purpose of the 5' step before, during, or after a full round action really helps overall understanding.
hope that helps...
-Pax
Thanks Pax... good example.
Entering a square occupied by an unfriendly creature always provokes an AOO from that creature. It's the only way tiny and smaller creatures can get AOOs, actually.I appreciate the reply, but where are you pulling his ruling from friend?
Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.
Let me ask this though, if I am the monk and I have a 5 foot effective reach, why would I enter the space of the cat when I can hit it from the space adjacent to it?
You wouldn't. The cat, on the other hand, would have to step into your space in order to attack you, which would provoke regardless of the type of movement used (even a 5' step).
To me it seems like we're dealing more with a nitpicky irritation than an actual misunderstanding of the rules. Yes technically, you provoke an AoO when moving out of a monster's 1st square of reach, not when entering the next one, but really it seems like semantics to me. Either way you look a it, there's an AoO about to happen.
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Entering a square occupied by an unfriendly creature always provokes an AOO from that creature. It's the only way tiny and smaller creatures can get AOOs, actually.I appreciate the reply, but where are you pulling his ruling from friend?Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.Let me ask this though, if I am the monk and I have a 5 foot effective reach, why would I enter the space of the cat when I can hit it from the space adjacent to it?You wouldn't. The cat, on the other hand, would have to step into your space in order to attack you, which would provoke regardless of the type of movement used (even a 5' step).
Zurai - - - - - - Thank you. I think I've been giving away the store to the rogue halfling. I've actually accepted AOOs from my diminutive player for some time. Thanks for the refresher on this. O MY!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Entering a square occupied by an unfriendly creature always provokes an AOO from that creature. It's the only way tiny and smaller creatures can get AOOs, actually.
You are making a point not in debate here and in doing so making a false statement (probably unintentionally.)
Tiny and smaller provoke AoO just fine from movement, so the "only way ... can get AoOs" should say "only way someone can provoke an AoO from a Tiny or smaller" otherwise you may make someone believe that Tiny and smaller can never provoke AoO from movement except when entering a square of another.
Entering a square occupied by an unfriendly creature always provokes an AOO from that creature. It's the only way tiny and smaller creatures can get AOOs, actually.You are making a point not in debate here and in doing so making a false statement (probably unintentionally.)
Tiny and smaller provoke AoO just fine from movement, so the "only way ... can get AoOs" should say "only way someone can provoke an AoO from a Tiny or smaller" otherwise you may make someone believe that Tiny and smaller can never provoke AoO from movement except when entering a square of another.
No, actually, my statement is correct. You just appear to be misreading it. I said entering their square was the only way a Tiny or smaller creature can get an AOO, not be AOOd.
Let me ask this though, if I am the monk and I have a 5 foot effective reach, why would I enter the space of the cat when I can hit it from the space adjacent to it?
Using some kind of combat manuever? The cat is invisible/hiding? You're blind?
Fair enough... point made. I was actually looking for both sides of the coin when I started this thread. I think my point as well as I have learned something I misread about tinier AoOs. My main point was about a medium armed creature moving up to, then attacking a medium creature without reach.
Pres Man - Good point, but I should have noted that I was refering to normal circumstances involving a plain old vanilla attack.
My main point was about a medium armed creature moving up to, then attacking a medium creature without reach.
Yes, in that case you're correct. The only time that entering a square provokes is if that square is in the creature's space. Normally it's leaving a threatened square which provokes.
Halflings are fine, because they're size Small. Small size characters still occupy a 5'x5' space and have a base 5' reach. Now, if that halfling were to be the subject of reduce person, he would be utterly boned because he would be unable to flank, as his space would be 2.5'x2.5' and his natural reach would be 0'.
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Halflings are fine, because they're size Small. Small size characters still occupy a 5'x5' space and have a base 5' reach. Now, if that halfling were to be the subject of reduce person, he would be utterly boned because he would be unable to flank, as his space would be 2.5'x2.5' and his natural reach would be 0'.
Good. Then my halfling rogue player has been fine. Thanks. Sometimes, thread make me question the obvious, or doubt what is already known. Thanks.
Not a problem; happy to help.