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Unofficial Oracle Alternate V1
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Gibbenzgob and I put our heads together over the last week and this is what we came up with. For those filled with hate and fury over it, by all means blame me, as I was the one at fault for most of it.
Taking into account some of the changes being suggested, as well as some of my own personal biases we put together a version of the Oracle that we think works pretty well. Increased spellcasting and whatnot, plus some additional changes that it forced upon me. Some of the elements here I already know will be opposed by some, but please keep an open mind. As questions come up I'll try to explain why, for better or ill, we did what we did.
The two biggest changes to the spellcasting was the Favored Soul's spells known progression, and changing specific bonus spells, to expanding the available list of spells. Including whole subtypes based on the Foci chosen (Flame focus can choose any fire subtype for instance). Either of these is a significant increase in spellcasting potency, adding both. . . well, it required some take to balance that give.
As to other changes. . . I'll leave that for you to discover. As luck would have it I'm moving tomorrow and Gibbenz is at some sort of wedding. . . so if we don't respond its because we aren't here, not because we don't want to. I'll try to clock in using my iPhone, heaven only knows how well that will work.
Finally, before bludgeoning me with the closest fish, please try it. Or at least use something soft and squishy. ;)
I do like the increased spells known, but then I've been clamoring for that anyway, it makes sense, given the divine spell list, clerics have way more spells known than wizards, it makes sense for oracles to have a few more than the sorcerer.
Your Foci are interesting, though giving total free reign on bonus spell selection may be a bit much, its not gamebreaking I'd say.
I really like the Void and Illumination Foci, but I have one major nitpick.
Dual casting stats. This is a terrible move, it is widely regarded as the dumbest feature of the Favored Soul, and ultimately it does far more harm than help. Please recondider this, I know alot of people have been suggesting a choice between the two at first level, but if your going to implement this, you'll have to do it across the board with other character classes.
So I'd just stick to Charisma, and it makes your changes very nicely integrable, without dramatically chaging the overall class, which dual stat or Wisdom based would do.
vagrant-poet wrote: . . .
Your Foci are interesting, though giving total free reign on bonus spell selection may be a bit much, its not gamebreaking I'd say.
So I'd just stick to Charisma, and it makes your changes very nicely integrable, without dramatically chaging the overall class, which dual stat or Wisdom based would do.
my first attempt from an iPhone. . .
Opening up to whole subtypes adds a fair amount of variety with minimal power gain. For instance the flame foci was already prescribed the fireball spell as a 3rd level spell addition, being able to switch it out for a different fire spell would allow the player to be just as offense oriented with out gaining much in power. Though they would get it sooner. There are times when this might create unbalance, meteor swarm being a possible example.
By just expanding the spells known however, we find ourselves with a bit of an issue. Sticking with the flame foci, why play a sorcerer? With the limited selection a player will have to focus primarily on healing and have just the 1 offensive power per sp level. With the expanded known he player has access to the 1 offensive, plus room for a buff and a heal. Since the cleric has some of if not the best buffs in the game, we get both some of the best party assist and good artillery combined in one class. No sacrifice of high level spells or low hitpoints like the mystic theurge either. . .
Something has got to give here, if not the dual casting stats then what? Shall we cap the spell level. . . Perhaps arrange the spell list like a bard's ending at 6th level?
I've played a Favored Soul quite a bit, at first the dual-stat thing set my head for a spin. . . After a time of playing it actually turned out pretty well. The largest cost in the long run is DC's . . . It tends to come out more focused on buffs and support. This does hinder the player looking to play artillery AND healing. . . But only by a few points. Leaving the dual stat caster capable, but not as good as the single stat caster. Considering the advantages of the spells per day and spells known. . . Works out.
However, if there is a better/cleaner method of balance . . . ?
I am one of the collaborators on this build of the oracle and I just wanted to say that we aren't dead set on the duel spellcasting stat requirement but did it for game balancing. We added a lot and took nothing away but adjusting numbers of skills, BAB, or adding another penalty might balance the changes. We still wanted the cleric and sorcerer to be desirable classes... especially the sorcerer. As far as bonus spells we were thinking on forcing the players on choosing a spell at each spell level related to their focus... nothing is more irritating then being a wind focus with no air or lightning spells. Feel free to make more suggestions though we like the assistance. Ultimately we don't care about which stat or stats to use but want the class to be different and balanced.
As I am only in a position to glance at the PDF and can't really compare, I'll just stick to some things that naturally follow.
I really like the fact that spell subtypes were added as bonus spells. :) But I think that this creates a redundancy with many of the revelations, particularly offensive-minded ones. Revelations therefore would have to be reworked (something I've believed since the beginning, regardless of anything else). On the other hand the elemental final revelations which I thought were somewhat of an unimaginative copout now have much more weight due to the increased number of known elemental spells.
I'm not sure of the extent to which the number of known spells was increased, but I think it would be wise to place some restriction on it. The original progression was fine (given the foci are redone), honestly. I think the bigger issue was relatively "weak" Cleric spell list coupled with the loss of a new spell level every odd level. This Is solved somewhat by expanding the spell list, but I think more can be done to balance the oracle (which seems to be considered underpowered) than just by simply giving it more bonus spells.
Homely Tadpole wrote: . . .I really like the fact that spell subtypes were added as bonus spells. :) But I think that this creates a redundancy with many of the revelations, particularly offensive-minded ones. . . I'm not sure of the extent to which the number of known spells was increased, but I think it would be wise to place some restriction on it. . . I think the bigger issue was relatively "weak" Cleric spell list coupled with the loss of a new spell level every odd level. . . My internet should be back on soon, hopefully then I can provide a more cogent response.
The spell subtype addition is certainly fun, but somewhat hazardous for balancing reasons. Not the type of balance as to whether a class is too powerful, but the sort of balance in which it's possible to reduce or even eliminate the value of another class. Hopefully the steps we took were sufficient, though I should have a revised version up in a day or two which I feel better handles it. . . A restriction as you suggested. I hadn't looked at potential redundencies, thinking back it sounds reasonable that it could/would arise. Anything in particular stand out? If so, what change/direction would you suggest?
I've read several times the opinion about the cleric spell list being weak. . . In terms of early level offensive punch this is true, but overall it comes out fairly well. True it is less geared towards attacking, but there are tactics that can make it quite potent. If you'd like I can provide some detail when I'm not typing with my phone.
Anyway, thanks for the response, and I hope you are in a position soon to give it a more thorough examination. I would appreciate your opinion.
I can see what you mean by balancing issues. With foci like Flame that could easily end up being the case.
If I had to cap it somehow, I would probably attempt to mix the old "bonus spell" method that they are currently using with the subtype variant. It would be cool to allow a single spell relevant to that focus (of a particular subtype, or however one may limit it) to be chosen rather than having it be preselected. This would basically allow them to choose a single spell of their liking with every new spell level they gain, providing players a choice while keeping the oracle from treading too far into Sorcerer territory.
It doesn't seem like it would be going too far to also use a cleric-like spell level progression, where the focus-based bonus spell gained at level 3 is a 2nd level spell, level 5 is a 3rd level spell, etc. I think it's the best way to provide the oracle with a bit more firepower, offensive or otherwise, without going overboard. The spells per day would have to be changed slightly to reflect this, though.
In terms of redundancy between spells and revelations... man. The majority of the revelations are based around combat, so there is bound to be quite a bit of overlay with various spell subtypes. It could just be that using elements as foci make it very hard to come by creative ideas, but from what I can see most revelations are just geared toward fighting. Very few of them can be used outside of battle, which is a shame, and what makes it all the more troubling is that many of those geared toward combat just aren't all that great, particularly in the long run. Coupled with the fact that Oracles have a limited reservoir of spells (which will no doubt be used for support purposes) and you have a relatively weak class.
Rant aside, I would probably add in more abilities geared toward utility and party support (as opposed to the more mundane self-buffing) instead of providing 3 different ways to inflict #d# elemental damage. It would be more more interesting and potentially even give the player some room to choose spells outside the norm.
I'd be happy to hear about the various tactics one could use with just the Cleric spell list, however. :) And honestly, it is fine if the Cleric spell list is not quite as offensive and that the Oracle does not gain quite as many spells, provided that foci and curses pick up the slack.
Still typing with my phone I'm afraid, unfortunately it looks like they won't get the Internet setup here until next week.
Meanwhile, the restriction you are suggesting is exactly the change Gibbenz and I had planned as soon as my Internet was up. Essentially subtracting 1 from spell levels 1- 9, then adding a "+1" next to each spell known columns 1-9. Then the spells would describe that the spells are chosen from the cleric spell list, with one additional being selectable from the bonus subtypes per foci.
A couple possibilities with the cleric spell list. . .
At early levels (pre-5th level spells) the cleric is a capable spell combatant, though not a particularly zazzy one. Spells such as obscuring mist, darkness, and deeper darkness, though not fireballs can and have prevented the opponents from overwhelming the players. Essentially allowing players to take on a few at a time( or even one). The oracles various vision abilities help here a bit as the player can help track down opponents while they stumble about. Not the stuff of legends but it has saved my bacon in the past. Animate dead is probably the easiest thing to abuse. Especially with the bloody skeleton. Nothing like having a free pack of cohorts that just won't die. Reach or ranged skeletons are especially disruptive. Divine favor, is a fair low level buff that allows the cleric to join the front line. Ultimately the Buff and Bludgeon achieves it's peek at Righteous might. Probably one of, if not the best buffs in the game. This method at later levels can even make the fighter seem a bit redundant. Combining these and you have a small army being orchestrated by an oversized oracle casting flamestrikes from the darkness.
Early on though, you primarily play party support. One of the benefits of spontaneously casting these combos, is with the cleric you will dominate maybe one combat, with the Oracle (or favored soul) towards the latter half you can dominate all of them. Beginning out though I would certainly have appreciated a bit of offensive joy, but I wasn't too worried about though. No one thows themselves in the way of death for a wizard. . . But they have and do for the cleric :)
Hopefully this phone typed message is fairly coherent.
I also wanted to point out some other powerful offensive cleric spells... these are for 7th level clerics (8th level oracle) and above that are on the basic spell list.
Holy Smite / Unholy Blight (4th)
Flamestrike (5th)
Blade Barrier (6th)
Destruction (7th)
Fire Storm (8th)
Implosion (9th)
These spells alone make a spontaneous caster nasty. With our new build what is really changing spellwise are 1st - 3rd level spells because the above spells will most definately be used by players. I personally do think the cleric spell list is powerful just a tad behind the wizard. If they used the bard list then i would say that their spells are weak.
Do you think it is possible for the Oracle to gain access to the majority of these spells without suffering greatly in some other role? This really is not a rhetorical question, as my understanding of an Oracle on the field is decent at best. Given the number of spells known early on it appears to me that they would shoot themselves (or perhaps their party) in the foot by foregoing various healing/support abilities and taking a more offensive role. Their various equipment proficiencies have been scaled down from the Cleric mold, which isn't an amazing detriment but it may give them an incentive to order their choices in a slightly more efficient way, taking into account the Oracle's unique strengths.
Later levels are a completely different story, but I think most spellcasters are quite powerful by then.
Also, would be a bit much to give Oracles a Cleric-like spell level progression (1, 3, 5, ...), even if the first spell gained for each new level must be related to the focus? Again, the spells per day would have to be toggled slightly, but it would be simple to keep that particular progression the same for the most part.
If you relook at our character suggestion above you would notice a favored soul progression. 3 spells are learned at each new spell level. One should be used on focus spells, one on healing, and one on buff/offensive magic. They will get more than that as they level which should provide enough spells known for them. Its why we kept it at even levels for spell acquisition so that there still was a couple reasons to play the cleric. We have game tested it at 4th, 10th, and 20th. These were short run mock battles. We have not roleplayed our new class build but will be over the next couple weeks and will tweek the revelations to have more role playing uses.
As to gaining spells at odd levels . . . The reasoning behind the way we left it ( not a passionate conclusion) was because it wasn't a spell preparation class. The spell preparation method is such that it really needs some sort of incentive in order to remain appealing, in this case getting access to spells sooner. After playing the favored soul extensively, the only reason I had to play a cleric again was for the necromantic aspects of the evil cleric(control undead and animate dead). This wasn't because of power, the cleric, especially the new pathfinder one, is a force to be reckoned with. It's simply the nature of how spells are used. As much personal bias I suppose, but in return for having to tolerate so many 1/day effects, getting access to spells early seems decent.
The original Oracle was granting bonus spells of the focus at odd levels. Thus the fireball spell was gained at 7th rather then 5th. That has been changed so the Oracle can select fireball at 6th. Not so much a delay, especially considering you are wearing armor and can cast the spells more then once.
Although my Internet hasn't been set up yet, I have put my computer together so I'll be taking another look at the foci. Meanwhile, what was your impression of the two custom foci in the alternate? Primarily I stuck to non-combat effects for them. Two exceptions, one ace-up-the-sleeve'ish ability for when things were getting hairy, and for the Void, one of those touch attack thingies for backup offensive.
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Alternate Oracle V2(PDF)
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Alternate Oracle V2(HTML)
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Probably a bit late in the game for it, but here is the adjusted version for a more restricted spell choice as discussed above. I would have had this up much sooner, but it took longer then expected to get the internet setup :(
Rather then go into more extensive rewrites of the various foci, Gibbenz and I are prepping for some more testing(all the new classes), we should be posting the results in a week or two.
Recent threads in Round 1: Cavalier and Oracle
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