Step 1 can be found here, which addresses spells you think should appear on this archetype’s spell list.
For this exercise, all I am concerned about is seeing what others envision what type of stats this fighter-mage should possess. There’s necessarily no right or wrong answer; this is purely subjective. Same for step one, I will be collecting all of the information into Excel so that a tally can be tracked and will eventually be made available for everyone to review to see what was selected as the majority / minority as well as whatever other information can interpret from it. Step 3 will be coming along later.
My choices are at the bottom of this post. We may not agree, but that’s okay.
Thanks in advance for those who are participating!
_______________________________________________________________________
- 1. Full
2. ¾
3. Other (Please specify)
- 1. 10
2. 8
3. Other (Please specify)
- 1. Bard [Fort Poor, Ref Good, Will Good]
2. Cleric/Druid/Paladin [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Good]
3. Fighter/Barbarian [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Poor]
4. Ranger [Fort Good, Ref Good, Will Poor]
5. Rogue [Fort Poor, Ref Good, Will Poor]
6. Sorcerer/Wizard [Fort Poor, Ref Poor, Will Good]
- 1. 2 + Int modifier [Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard]
2. 4 + Int modifier [Barbarian, Druid, Monk]
3. 6 + Int modifier [Bard, Ranger]
- 1. Bard
2. Ranger/Paladin
3. Other (Please specify)
- 1. Intelligence
2. Charisma
3. Other (Please specify)
- 1. Spontaneous
2. Preparation
3. Other (Please specify)
- 1. Entire list available
2. Spells known/selected
3. Other (Please specify)
_______________________________________________________________________
- A. ¾ BAB
B. 8 HD
C. Cleric/Druid/Paladin [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Good]
D. 4 + Int modifier [Barbarian, Druid, Monk]
E. Bard
F. Charisma
G. Spontaneous
H. Entire list available
A. ¾ BAB
B. 8 HD
C. Cleric/Druid/Paladin [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Good]
D. 2 + Int modifier E. Bard
F. Intelligence
G. Spontaneous
H. Spells Known/selected
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A. ¾ BAB
B. 8 HD
C. Cleric/Druid/Paladin [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Good]
D. 2 + Int modifier [Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard]
E. Bard
F. Charisma
G. Spontaneous
H. Spells known/selected
I think that the Bard class in general is a good place to stop. A different spell list, fewer skills, and a feature that ties the casting and fighting halves together (such as a spellblade's channeling) to replace the bardic music and other less-fitting bard features.
A. BAB Progression: 2. ¾
B. Hit Dice: 2. 8
C. Saves Progression: 1. Bard [Fort Poor, Ref Good, Will Good]
second choice: 4. Ranger [Fort Good, Ref Good, Will Poor]
D. Skill Ranks Per Level: 2. 4 + Int modifier [Barbarian, Druid, Monk]
E. Caster Level Progression: 1. Bard
F. Primary Ability Stat: 2. Charisma
G. Caster Type: 1. Spontaneous
H. Spells Gained Per Spell Level: 2. Spells known/selected
I would say look to the Warmage and the Beguiler for your inspiration.
I'm familiar with the warmage, but I've never played a beguiler. Is there anything specific that I/we should be looking at those two classes for inspiration?
I think that the Bard class in general is a good place to stop. A different spell list, fewer skills, and a feature that ties the casting and fighting halves together (such as a spellblade's channeling) to replace the bardic music and other less-fitting bard features.
When I was "reinvisioning" the duskblade, I actually did look to the bard class as a point of inspiration. As to what class will actually be used remains to be seen once we pool all the information together and see what comes out of it.
One other thing I would recommend is limiting their armored casting to light armor. This will limit the power creep and there are still ways that they can get the advantages of heavier armor.
That is something that I definitely plan to address when we get to the further steps when talking about class options/features. Thanks for the reminder!
A) 2
B) 2
C) 4
D) 1
E) 1
F) 1
G) 1
H) 1I would say look to the Warmage and the Beguiler for your inspiration.
I am not sure that work, both the warmage and beguiler were primary casters. I dont think that would work with a fighter mage as there has to be a decrease in casting ability somehow to account for the additional martial prowess.
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I would say look to the Warmage and the Beguiler for your inspiration.I'm familiar with the warmage, but I've never played a beguiler. Is there anything specific that I/we should be looking at those two classes for inspiration?
Well the warmage is a good example of how to build a frontline caster. The Battlesorcerer in UA is another good example. The Beguiler, which is actually a rogue/wizard and is a great example of how a class can be built to fill a nitche without really sepping on the toes of the two classes on either side of it in the spectrum.
Alright, I'll bite.
A. 1
B. 1 (however d12 could be argued depending on all other abilities)
C. 2 (perhaps 3)
D. 1
E. 2 (However I can see a specialized progression up to 5th level spells)
F. 1 (the bard already uses charisma.)
G. 2 (spontaneous is overrated.)
H. 3 (same as a wizard just more limited in schools, he must Learn/scribe his spells into some kind of spellbook)
H. 3 (same as a wizard just more limited in schools, he must Learn/scribe his spells into some kind of spellbook)
Can you expand on this one? Explain to me/us your concept of school limitations.
Thanks for participating!
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A. BAB Progression: Full (this is a fighter class)
B. Hit Dice:: d10 (ditto)
C. Saves Progression: Either good Fort/Will or just good Fort, depending on strength of other class abilities (fighters have Fort, this class is secondary in arcane casting and casters tend to have Will, so if it's not too over-powered that's where the priorities should lie)
D. Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier (no need to be any more skilled than a fighter or a wizard, since that's where this class is drawing its elements)
E. Caster Level Progression: Duskblade or bard or something similar (most of the relevant spells are lower level, anyway, and keeping spell levels--and, by extension, DCs--low, it balances out the 20 caster levels the class will end up with)
F. Primary Ability Stat: Intelligence (we already need all the physical stats and the class will likely have a poor Will progression, so Wisdom can't be fully dumped either... let's at least throw the class the bone of not completely screwing its skill points... if Charisma winds up being more popular, I'd change my vote on skill ranks to compensate... nothing kills a class's relevance faster than being spread too thin amongst ability requirements)
G. Caster Type: Spontaneous, or perhaps some sort of at-will warlock type, but less blasty (prepared equates to versatile, and versatility would push this class into the realms of being over-powered, depending on its spell list, of course)
H. Spells Gained Per Spell Level: Extremely limited spells known (see above)
H. 3 (same as a wizard just more limited in schools, he must Learn/scribe his spells into some kind of spellbook)
Can you expand on this one? Explain to me/us your concept of school limitations.
Thanks for participating!
The class would get small list of universal spells then get it's choice of all spells (1st-4th level or perhaps 5th level) from one school only, like a specialist wizard only more limited.
Also, like a wizard he would need some kind of spellbook(doesn't have to be a book, but serves the same function).
A. BAB 1 (full)
B. HD 2 (d8)
C. Saves 1 (For & Will)
D. Skills 2 (4 pts)
E. Caster 1 (Bard)
F. Casting Stat 1 (Int)
G. Caster type 1 (spontaneous)
H. List 2 (known spells)
A. ¾
B. 8
C. Bard [Fort Poor, Ref Good, Will Good]
D. 4 + Int modifier [Barbarian, Druid, Monk]
E. Bard
F. Other (Dex)
G. Spontaneous
H. Spells known/selected
A - 2 (full BAB seems like too much to me)
B - 2 (sticking with the BAB. D10 I could see under certain circumstances)
C - 1 (partly this has to do with being capable against other caster. gotta make those refl saves, but again this comes down to class description. Is he tough or he agile? High will save is a must though)
D - 2 (again, mid range)
E - 1 (bard still has full caster levels, and that has been pointed out to be key for offensive spells/debuffs)
F - 1 (I don't think there are enough int casters, and you can't step without landing on a Cha caster these days)
G - 2 (I think this class should be more wizard than sorc. studying spells, etc)
H - 3 (this depends on the background of the class. my first choice is spellbooks)
Well the warmage is a good example of how to build a frontline caster. The Battlesorcerer in UA is another good example. The Beguiler, which is actually a rogue/wizard and is a great example of how a class can be built to fill a nitche without really sepping on the toes of the two classes on either side of it in the spectrum.
In an Eberron campaign where we're all playing goblinoids involved in a civil war within Dhakaan, I'm presently playing a hobgoblin warmage (who had just taken a level of fighter to prepare to take Eldritch Knight the following level). While he could be a front line fighter, I've actually specialized him to be more of a ranged fighter and I'm going the 'fighter-mage' route for the additional feats and BAB advancement while still progressing my caster level.
As for the Beguiler, another option for the rogue / wizard would be the Spellthief. Different niche, but essentially using the same multi-classes.
I look forward to your $0.02 on the project when we start reviewing class options. Thanks, David!
A. 1 (3/4 BAB)
B. 2 (d8 hit die)
C. 2 (Saves - Cleric, Druid, Paladin)
D. 1 (2 + int Skill ranks per level)
E. 1 (Bard caster progression, no healing spells, should be arcane, mix of damage & utility)
F. 1 (Int as primary ability stat)
Hi CB!
I noticed you didn't have G. or H. Intentional omission or accidental?
As for E., you ought to go to the other thread and reflect that in your spell choices by omitting / including those you envision.
Thanks!
F. Primary Ability Stat: Intelligence (we already need all the physical stats and the class will likely have a poor Will progression, so Wisdom can't be fully dumped either... let's at least throw the class the bone of not completely screwing its skill points... if Charisma winds up being more popular, I'd change my vote on skill ranks to compensate... nothing kills a class's relevance faster than being spread too thin amongst ability requirements)
G. Caster Type: Spontaneous, or perhaps some sort of at-will warlock type, but less blasty (prepared equates to versatile, and versatility would push this class into the realms of being over-powered, depending on its spell list, of course)
H. Spells Gained Per Spell Level: Extremely limited spells known (see above)
F. - That's why on my spell list I made a mention that I would choose to drop one or another 2nd level spell depending on whether Charisma or Intelligence ends up being the popular choice.
G. & H. When you have a moment, please go to the thread STEP ONE to reflect your choice of spells that you envision this archetype might have. That should help illustrate things a bit.
Thanks for participating!
H. 3 (same as a wizard just more limited in schools, he must Learn/scribe his spells into some kind of spellbook)
Can you expand on this one? Explain to me/us your concept of school limitations.
Thanks for participating!
The class would get small list of universal spells then get it's choice of all spells (1st-4th level or perhaps 5th level) from one school only, like a specialist wizard only more limited.
Also, like a wizard he would need some kind of spellbook(doesn't have to be a book, but serves the same function).
I understand what you mean now. It could also be like a tattoo, a rune, a string of beads and knots, etc. I consider this to be '2' under H, then. If the majority goes with Prepatory known spells, then we can discuss in later stages where those spells are stored.
In the meantime, I'd love to see what spells you envision on the other thread. Thanks!
F. Other (Dex)
Are you inferring that this should be the primary stat for casting? I'd be curious as to why you chose this.
Thanks!
A - 2 (full BAB seems like too much to me)
B - 2 (sticking with the BAB. D10 I could see under certain circumstances)
C - 1 (partly this has to do with being capable against other caster. gotta make those refl saves, but again this comes down to class description. Is he tough or he agile? High will save is a must though)
D - 2 (again, mid range)
E - 1 (bard still has full caster levels, and that has been pointed out to be key for offensive spells/debuffs)
F - 1 (I don't think there are enough int casters, and you can't step without landing on a Cha caster these days)
G - 2 (I think this class should be more wizard than sorc. studying spells, etc)
H - 3 (this depends on the background of the class. my first choice is spellbooks)
Like I mentioned in a previous post, I'd consider your 'H' to be option 2 since you're also considering this to be a archetype that has to prepare his spells daily based from a list of known spells. If this ends up being the popular choice, we can address that later in a future step about where those spells should be stored.
When you get a chance, I'd like to see your list of spells envisioned too. Thanks!
Twelve and counting in this thread thus far. We know there's more of you out there. Join the confessions and suggestions!
A. BAB Progression: 3/4 -- if good class features (cast touch spells through weapon, quickened abjurations, etc.). This is my overhelming preference. Full BAB only if no unique class features -- but if not, why bother with this, as opposed to the Eldritch Knight?
B. Hit Dice: 3/4 BAB = d8 HD in Pathfinder. That's inviolable.
Full BAB = d10 for all classes except barbarian. That's also been set in stone by the folks at Paizo.
C. Saves Progression: Cleric/Druid [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Good]
D. Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier [Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard]
E. Caster Level Progression: Bard - If limited spells list and/or class features
Ranger/Paladin - If full BAB and class features
F. Primary Ability Stat: Charisma - This is standard for spontaneous casters (see below), and I'd rather not try and change standard rules with gratuitous exceptions.
G. Caster Type: Spontaneous
H. Spells Gained Per Level: Use sorcerer's "spells known" mechanism, if a spontaneous caster (spontaneous access to long lists, a la the beguiler, is a pain in the neck).
Sorry, accidentally omitted G and H -- I was in a hurry.
G. 2
H. 2 (I haven't really given much thought to this part yet, I have to admit)
I understand. Thanks!
Of course, since the point of the thread is to develop a concept and a class, this comment is little better than a troll.
A. 1
B. 1
C. 2
D. 1
E. 1
F. 1
G. 1
H. 2
Of course, since the point of the thread is to develop a concept and a class, this comment is little better than a troll.No, the cart has been put before the horse. If you want to pick a bunch of random stats and then ascribe a concept after the fact, you don't need a poll, just a d20.
Now, if you're trying to find out what stats fit a stated concept, then yeah, a poll and discussion is useful. But you need the stated concept first.
While I admit that I do read your posts and sometimes I gain some insight or some humor out of them, I do note that you have the tendency to play the troll or the devil's advocate by default rather than providing something supportive with your own initial build example.
I would challenge you to initiate your own build concept of this archetype and let the rest of us critique that. Perhaps you just might have the answer to the solution that the rest of us have overlook? Any comments of being lazy or not having time is to the contrary, because you obviously invest a lot of time critiquing and dissenting others as the volumes and lengths of your posts account for it.
And to answer your question - yes I am polling for information. I am compiling the information and will present what was selected. In the following stages, it is my intent to build from the majority and work out other options. I realize that even some of the things I may imagine my archetype to reflect may not be in the majority and that's fine. It's just a exercise that involves multiple participants.
It could very well end up being a craptacular abracastabra. But some of us want to induldge in it to see where it goes.
Thanks!
I've been tossing off concepts left and right. A half-dozen from earlier tonight: Duskblade channeling, a deep pool of small swift effects similar to stances, TOB-style "I hit you with my Blade of the Fancy Name attack!", triggering spell effects under certain conditions, making weapons out of magic. Nobody's really felt the need to comment on them, so they don't really go anywhere, and I haven't run with them because I've yet to come up with a non-derivative way to implement them.
But this polling is useless because a successful class is going to be built around a core mechanic, and the rest of the numbers are going to be adjusted from there. You can't hold a poll to see what size and shape a container should be until you know what the container is going to hold. Case in point: WRT the stats in this poll, clerics and bards are nearly identical.
And some of those concepts will likely be brought up when I put this through the next stage. You're more than welcome to participate when we get there.
I agree that in most cases, you'll need to see what the container is going to hold before determining its size and shape. What I am attempting to poll/see is what everyone sees as their own concept without any influence from others from the get-go. I have a concept, you have a concept, Kolokotroni has a concept, and SmiloDan's got a lot of them. If you were building your own, what would you have? What is his hit dice? His BAB progression? Is he a spontaneous caster?
Instead of discussing whether the chicken or the egg came first or putting the cart before the horse or any other sort of variable dynamics, what's your initial take on the basics?
Thanks.
I've been tossing off concepts left and right. A half-dozen from earlier tonight: Duskblade channeling, a deep pool of small swift effects similar to stances, TOB-style "I hit you with my Blade of the Fancy Name attack!", triggering spell effects under certain conditions, making weapons out of magic. Nobody's really felt the need to comment on them, so they don't really go anywhere, and I haven't run with them because I've yet to come up with a non-derivative way to implement them.
But this polling is useless because a successful class is going to be built around a core mechanic, and the rest of the numbers are going to be adjusted from there. You can't hold a poll to see what size and shape a container should be until you know what the container is going to hold. Case in point: WRT the stats in this poll, clerics and bards are nearly identical.
And some of those concepts will likely be brought up when I put this through the next stage. You're more than welcome to participate when we get there.
I agree that in most cases, you'll need to see what the container is going to hold before determining its size and shape. What I am attempting to poll/see is what everyone sees as their own concept without any influence from others from the get-go. I have a concept, you have a concept, Kolokotroni has a concept, and SmiloDan's got a lot of them. If you were building your own, what would you have? What is his hit dice? His BAB progression? Is he a spontaneous caster?
Instead of discussing whether the chicken or the egg came first or putting the cart before the horse or any other sort of variable dynamics, what's your initial take on the basics?
Thanks.
I do agree that you are kind of going backwards here, I have to say its an interesting excersize. After all there is nothing to say the steps need be linear. If for instance we all (or just me for that matter) decide in step 3 on a superawesomewaycoolnewabilitynoonethoughtofbefore. Nothing says i cant come back to this thread and change my mind based on it.
I really think you need to address the style with which any 'gish' is going to fight. If you plan to have basically an armed & armored wizard, I would stick with core & just go for the Eldritch Knight PrC. That would be for the sword swinging, fireball hurler. If you intention is a warrior that basically augments himself with spells, instead of a crapload of feats, then you need to consider this. After 6th level spells, maybe even before, there aren't any real melee oriented spells for the self buffer. True, there are shape changing spells, but I mean something cast on your weapon, or something that screams melee spell. This makes for a sucky EK build, but would be right for a full base class.
Well, with only 14 participants volunteering, here's the direction the majority of participants have been choosing thus far:
71% chose BAB 3/4
79% chose HD 8
64% chose saves for Cleric/Druid/Paladin [Fort Good, Ref Poor, Will Good]
71% chose 2 + INT modifier skill ranks per level.
93% chose a bard's caster level progression.
57% chose the primary caster stat to be INT
79% chose a spontaneous caster
86% chose that the spells gained should be known/learned each level.
I'd like to see more input to get a better pool of data, but this is the direction the archetype is going toward by the majority of participants.
That's what you're after here? Design by committee? Count me out.
I know it would be more of an abstract concept, but it would allow a stat that is beneficial to both casting and combat.
F. Other (Dex)
Are you inferring that this should be the primary stat for casting? I'd be curious as to why you chose this.
Thanks!
A. Full BAB
B. d10 HD
C. Paladin saves
D. 2 + INT skill points
E. Ranger/Paladin CL
F. Intelligence spell ability
G. Prepared casting
H. Spells known/selected
That's what you're after here? Design by committee? Count me out.
Yes and no. Right now, I'm trying to get the base of what everyone is imaginging as a concept of their arcane warrior archtype. I was merely providing statistics to show where the train of thought is going. When we start bringing up class features, that's going to be a lot more subjective and not as easy as picking from the majority and going with it. Who knows - someone could come up with an idea so interesting that it would sway others to it. Nothing is intended to be static and unflexible through this.
Playing devil's advocate - what would you propose as a method other than design by committee? What would be a reasonable (i.e. fair)alternative?
Playing devil's advocate - what would you propose as a method other than design by committee? What would be a reasonable (i.e. fair)alternative?
First off, there's the issue of leadership vs. "too many cooks." I'd also say that what's more "fair" is sometimes less "reasonable." It's fair to take majority rule on each question individually, right? But then you might get mutually contradictory directives that way, which is hardly a reasonable state of affairs for a supposedly playable class.
For example, for NASA to build a space shuttle, they don't just open each aspect to a vote by the general populace:
1. "What size nuts should we use? Pick one: (a) 3/8", (b) 1/2", (c) 7/16", (d) 16 mm, (e) 1/25th of a cubit."
2. "What type of fuel would you prefer we use? Pick one: (a) gasoline, (b) coal, (c) nuclear fusion, (d) dilithium crystals, (e) pixie dust."
I'd be more likely to first have a discussion thread for what type of class we're after. Is it an Elric type, who summons extraplanar allies to help him in a fight while he swings his sword? Or more like the duskblade or spellsword, with specific class features that allow him to synergize magic and combat? The type of class that the most people really have a need for would be a good starting point.
Step Two: Compare existing mechanics for similar classes. Cleric, bard, duskblade, eldritch knight: which most closely resembles what we're after from Step One?
Step Three: Someone with some experience in game/class design drafts a class. It can be rough; it's just a starting point. There's no committee involved at this point!
Step Four: Bring the committee back in for suggestions/comments/playtesting. Fix and edit as needed. Repeat this step until mechanical issues have been sorted out. Return to Step 3 if needed.
comments
The comments you brought up are fair. I'm not sure what to do about creating some sort of committee -- who is even going to make that decision? There'll probably be bickering about who is more (or less) qualified and frankly I'm not really interested in such jockeying. I'm just a fan without any publishing or designing experience -- nor am I interested in such.
My only main focus is to just bring up the discussion(s) and let anyone who decides to speak up to do so. The only parameter I'm trying to keep in place that it respects Pathfinder core, references contents that are not OOP, and OGC compliance.
If this reaches any form of conclusion and someone decides that they don't like a couple things, it's free for them to take it and mold it into whatever serves their campaigns. In the meantime, Paizo and/or any respectable 3PP can take the necessary information themselves and decide if they want to ever fill that niche. It'll give them something for reference and/or spark something unique for the archetype that none of us ever thought up.
Regardless of the differences in direction, I do hope you stick around and continue to put in your two cents. :) Thanks!
EDIT: I definitely plan to address Step 2 along the way for comparison for existing / similar mechanics to avoid powercreep.
I'm not sure what to do about creating some sort of committee -- who is even going to make that decision?
The good news is, you've already got a de facto committee -- everyone who posts here and maintains an interest in the thread!
Overall, I guess I misunderstood the thrust of these threads, for which I should apologize. My impression was that you actually intended to write a new class, rather than simply to generate ideas. If the latter, you're probably doing it just fine without the sort of step-wise procedure I outlined. Carry on, sir!