Okay, in the last two days, the board has been overrun with threads discussing various aspects of the gish concept. So it got me to thinking, why the sudden interest? Has something happened in the multiverse that I slept through that has prompted this sudden interest? W@hy is everyone suddenly talking about little ol' me?
I don't know, but it can't end quickly enough.
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Okay, in the last two days, the board has been overrun with threads discussing various aspects of the g#~% concept. So it got me to thinking, why the sudden interest? Has something happened in the multiverse that I slept through that has prompted this sudden interest? Why is everyone suddenly talking about little ol' me?
'Tis the Day of the G~&%.
Okay, in the last two days, the board has been overrun with threads discussing various aspects of the gish concept. So it got me to thinking, why the sudden interest? Has something happened in the multiverse that I slept through that has prompted this sudden interest? W@hy is everyone suddenly talking about little ol' me?
Because casters are awesome and interesting to play, and the idea of one who can fight is another awesome concept and very good for adventure stories, as many wizards are holed up in towers.
The concept of a martial arcanist is interesting.
The nomenclature ("gish") is not so much.
Okay, in the last two days, the board has been overrun with threads discussing various aspects of the g#~% concept. So it got me to thinking, why the sudden interest? Has something happened in the multiverse that I slept through that has prompted this sudden interest? Why is everyone suddenly talking about little ol' me?'Tis the Day of the G~&%.
FTFY
Not sure why everyone is so interested in it. They are not open content so Paizo can not use em anyhow
Arcane warrior types however they can use
arcane warrior are always interesting to players. Its why everyone loved Bladesingers in the Realms
Dude if ya was gonna be a badass Bladesinger you just had to get a hold of a Moonblade
arcane warrior are always interesting to players. Its why everyone loved Bladesingers in the Realms
The Bladesingers are not specific or unique to Forgotten Realms.
They first appeared in AD&D 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves, which wasn't linked to any setting.
arcane warrior are always interesting to players. Its why everyone loved Bladesingers in the RealmsThe Bladesingers are not specific or unique to Forgotten Realms.
They first appeared in AD&D 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves, which wasn't linked to any setting.
true enough
they sort of took a life of thier own in FR
Yeah no world took them like FR did. With elves of evermeet they took a life of there own there
Why is everyone suddenly talking about little ol' me?
No, no, no. They're actually talking about the magic/melee hybrid thingie, not about an old toothless Gith that says his races' name funny. Silly old toothless Gith!
Hate the term. Hope it ends fast. Hell, if they were called Oracles I wouldn't even complain a bit. It would be better the current nickname.
I'm not opposed to the concept, but it makes me think of munchkin players. And I dislike munchkin players.
I'd be happy to see a solid build with a decent name.
I'm not opposed to the concept, but it makes me think of munchkin players. And I dislike munchkin players.
... but ... What about the Lollipop Guild?
Oh, this goes beyond Munchkins into one of the other classics of children's literature:
"I want a Gish, daddy! I want a Gish!"
... but ... What about the Lollipop Guild?
I kicked they a$$es to the curb, 'cause they all had a charisma of 6..
But hey.. 18 Strength, 16 Dex, 14 Con, that's what the game is all about, right!?
Too...much...Gish-gushing... Ao-oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!
Too...much...Gish-gashing... Ao-oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!
Fixed it for you booberry
Gish are like Jedi, so they capture the imagination of a set of people. Plus gish are the new Dritzz.
Gish are like Jedi, so they capture the imagination of a set of people. Plus gish are the new Dritzz.
There is nothing new about the Fighter/Mage character concept. It has been a part of the game since the beginning, and every version of the game has included ways to effectively build one.
Admittedly 3.0/3.5 made it rough with the new multiclassing rules, making so that instead of being 2 or 3 spell levels and 2 or 3 thAC0/BAB whatever you want to call it behind a full Fighter or Wizard you were effectively 50% of either; but that mistake was rectified with splatbooks.
Unfortunately, splatbook overload also lent itself to abuse of loopholes and munchkinism, which is where I think this strange knee-jerk reaction of "You want to play a (insert word for Fighter/Mage here)!?!? You horrid little (munchking/Jedi wannabe/Drizzt fanboy/all around general bad person who should never be allowed to reproduce) you!" comes from.
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There was nothing new about Dritzz either. And yes, the blademage concept of a fighter/wizard has been around for a long time. Those of us who liked it even made it work in 3.0/3.5 until the Duskblade came out in PHB II. I think what Tina meant is that the desire for it to be it's own defined class, with all kinds of buffs seems to come from a desire to have a PFRPG class that does what the Jedi does. I have seem the same trend in many of the discussions on the boards over the past few days. People want lots of things for the class like Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace or Align Weapon. They also want things that can depower their opponents or mind control them. In short, they want to be really strong, do astonishing flips and jumps, and be able to use mind tricks. Hence the Jedi analogy.
There was nothing new about Dritzz either. And yes, the blademage concept of a fighter/wizard has been a long for a long time. Those of us who liked it even made it work in 3.0/3.5 until the Duskblade came out in PHB II. I think what Tina meant is that the desire for it to be it's own defined class, with all kinds of buffs seems to come from a desire to have a PFRPG class that does what the Jedi does. I have seem the same trend in many of the discussions on the boards over the past few days. People want lots of things for the class like Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace or Align Weapon. They also want things that can depower their opponents or mind control them. In short, they want to be really strong, do astonishing flips and jumps, and be able to use mind tricks. Hence the Jedi analogy.
I am in consensus with what you're saying here. When I've been participating in these threads, I'm only using 'gish' as a necessary evil as it draws attention (both positive and negative) and it shows up in message board searches for those looking for information.
I can't speak much of Dritzz fanboism because I've never read a single FR novel (I was more into Dragonlance when I was younger). But I am extremely guilty of being a Star Wars fan (and appreciate the (not so) subtle references to it in Abrams' Star Trek reboot). But I know that there's a strong desire amongst some of the board posters to see an arcane fighter class and we all have our own way of envisioning it.
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I don't know, but I agree that I wish it would be over with. An arcane warrior is perfectly do-able under the current rules and comes out as a solid, but not completely 'optimized' class, which is what it should be.
The different ways to do it (Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple/Arcane Archer) and the various means to get there (multiclass combos) represent the many different paths that an arcane student might learn or teach himself how to combine the two schools of fighting.
It should be something that is very uncommon and difficult to do. If you make an arcane warrior base class, you've just either A) Eliminated the need for the aforementioned prestige classes, or B) taken a step towards 3.5, where you take the prestige class just for a few features and then skip over to the aforementioned prestige classes.
To those who dislike the g-word, I suggest replacing it in your vocabulary to prevent its spread usage. Probably a LOT of younger games have learned what it means and added it to their vocabulary within the last 3-4 days.
On a serious note..
I wonder if this fighter/magic user hybrid craze stems from a desire to be fairly self-reliant or autonomous.. that is not requiring to work with others.
This is nothing new. Back in the day when Elf was a class and not just a race they were effectivly a fighter & magic-user. The only sort of new spin on it is the annoying name of Gish.
Fighter/thief and fighter/mage were the first two multi classes out there. Clerics where much less likely to multi class as thay already wore armor and could cast spells.
The concept of a martial arcanist is interesting.
The nomenclature ("gish") is not so much.
Exactly so.
Gish are githyanki. This creepy screwing up of names is one of the very bad things that came out of 3e. *shudder*
On a serious note..
I wonder if this fighter/magic user hybrid craze stems from a desire to be fairly self-reliant or autonomous.. that is not requiring to work with others.
Interesting observation.
I can't speak for others, but that isn't the case for me. It is simply a niche, I suppose. I've played an 'orator' style bard and I primarily played clerics in the past, but it still never satisfied completely what I was looking for to play in a base class.
I game with a bunch of guys that rarely, if ever, uses PrCs. In one of several campaigns I'm playing in RL, given the (few) options we had for the campaign by sticking to PF core, I elected to dip into the Eldritch Knight class once I have met the prereqs. But I have to confess that there are certain abilities I wish I had available from the beginning -- but as long as it was balanced and not necessarily power-creeping. While I admit I'm a duskblade fan (and to this day, I don't know why it's called a duskblade as it doesn't do much with 'dusk', IMHO), I do feel it is a bit overpowered despite its potential to serve a certain niche.
The concept of a martial arcanist is interesting.
The nomenclature ("gish") is not so much.
Exactly so.
Gish are githyanki. This creepy screwing up of names is one of the very bad things that came out of 3e. *shudder*
[threadjack]
It isn't just 3e; words evolve. We have a lot of words in just about every languages today when you discover its original origin / etomology to be vastly different from how it is used today, sometimes you have to say to yourself, 'WTF....!'
Heck, it even happens with acronyms. FTW didn't originally mean 'for the win'... ;-)
[/threadjack]
On a serious note..
I wonder if this fighter/magic user hybrid craze stems from a desire to be fairly self-reliant or autonomous.. that is not requiring to work with others.
Access to spells, whether arcane or divine is a finite resource, and spells are the most immediate way to see short term gains in character power/efficiency. They're "shiny".
Also, I think anyone who has been a table where the divine or arcane casters could care less about spending some spell slots on helping out their allies, and would rather just spend those slots casting fireballs or inflict spells, can see the attraction of being able to "self-buff".
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Because multiclassing is silly, WOTC is the devil, nobody allows homebrews in, and...
Ok, I'll stop.
Honestly, I don't know. The way I see it, people are almost asking for a Paladin, except he's a Wizard. With spells. And less armor. And spells.
And there is, hilariously, nearly no consensus as to what this wunder-kind will do or how it will do it, other than the fact that it is clearly Arcane, and clearly a Warrior. The houserule people should, hopefully, have some information, or even a rough draft forthcoming.
And there is, hilariously, nearly no consensus as to what this wunder-kind will do or how it will do it, other than the fact that it is clearly Arcane, and clearly a Warrior. The houserule people should, hopefully, have some information, or even a rough draft forthcoming.
Ain't that the truth.
Speaking of ... you're more than welcome to throw in your $0.02 there too. The more information and wider the net, perhaps something will come out of it.
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And there is, hilariously, nearly no consensus as to what this wunder-kind will do or how it will do it, other than the fact that it is clearly Arcane, and clearly a Warrior. The houserule people should, hopefully, have some information, or even a rough draft forthcoming.Ain't that the truth.
Speaking of ... you're more than welcome to throw in your $0.02 there too. The more information and wider the net, perhaps something will come out of it.
Maybe later tonight, I may be chain-posting, but I've got Microsoft Office Word open as well, homework is nearly all-consuming this beautiful day off.
Because multiclassing is silly, WOTC is the devil, nobody allows homebrews in, and...
Ok, I'll stop.
Honestly, I don't know. The way I see it, people are almost asking for a Paladin, except he's a Wizard. With spells. And less armor. And spells.
And there is, hilariously, nearly no consensus as to what this wunder-kind will do or how it will do it, other than the fact that it is clearly Arcane, and clearly a Warrior. The houserule people should, hopefully, have some information, or even a rough draft forthcoming.
It need not be a wunderkind. I think what most people would like is a removal of some of the fighter thingies (armor training, feats galore) and replace it with some arcane stuff. Maybe remove armor use for the ability to cast defensive magics of some type. That kind of thing
Lets keep it balanced but new
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The concept of a martial arcanist is interesting.
The nomenclature ("gish") is not so much.
I agree. I throw up in my mouth a little bit over these cutesy terms. I'd add "Pally" to the list too -- use that in WoW as much as you want, but when I'm gaming at the table it all just pulls me right out of the mood I'm wanting to be in (too video-gamey for tabletop).
(Yes, yes, I know... WoW is hella fun, whatever. I'm not a snob, I just like to keep all these things separate and not blur it all too much or get too much FPS/MMORPG into my nice little RPG game)
Gish are like Jedi, so they capture the imagination of a set of people. Plus gish are the new Dritzz.There is nothing new about the Fighter/Mage character concept. It has been a part of the game since the beginning, and every version of the game has included ways to effectively build one.
Admittedly 3.0/3.5 made it rough with the new multiclassing rules, making so that instead of being 2 or 3 spell levels and 2 or 3 thAC0/BAB whatever you want to call it behind a full Fighter or Wizard you were effectively 50% of either; but that mistake was rectified with splatbooks.
Unfortunately, splatbook overload also lent itself to abuse of loopholes and munchkinism, which is where I think this strange knee-jerk reaction of "You want to play a (insert word for Fighter/Mage here)!?!? You horrid little (munchking/Jedi wannabe/Drizzt fanboy/all around general bad person who should never be allowed to reproduce) you!" comes from.
I have to agree.
Unfortunately, splatbook overload also lent itself to abuse of loopholes and munchkinism, which is where I think this strange knee-jerk reaction of "You want to play a (insert word for Fighter/Mage here)!?!? You horrid little (munchking/Jedi wannabe/Drizzt fanboy/all around general bad person who should never be allowed to reproduce) you!" comes from.
That puts far too much responsibility on the splat books and not the players. But then I don't think it's a strange knee jerk reaction at all. Maybe it is a bit of a generalization, but to what degree?
For example: I'm sure somewhere some kid who begged his parents for a puppy and promised to take it for a walk, feed it, and clean up after it- and then actually did it. And then there's all the *other* kids in the world.
And I'm sure somewhere somebody played a g--h and wasn't a munchkin/Jedi/Drizzt/whatEVER.
But stereotypes often have an element of truth at their core.
I hear what you're saying though. One can argue it is a shame that such a class gets a bad label. Which is why if there was a good build for such a class, I wouldn't seeing it.
Arcane warrior are always interesting to players. It's why everyone loved Bladesingers in the Realms.And let's not forget ol' Elric of Melnibone! Has anyone mentioned him yet?
I wouldn't ever consider Elric a bladesinger...
I wouldn't ever consider Elric a bladesinger...Arcane warrior are always interesting to players. It's why everyone loved Bladesingers in the Realms.And let's not forget ol' Elric of Melnibone! Has anyone mentioned him yet?
I think the point was he is a classic fighter/mage type
When you use the word Gish outside of describing gith; George Lucas gets a little closer to replacing the ewoks with jar-jar binks.
When you use the word Gish outside of describing gith; George Lucas gets a little closer to replacing the ewoks with jar-jar binks.
Wouldn't make much of a difference in my book. Both are utterly deplorable.
But I also hate it when the word "gish" is abused like that. Or people still calling the Pathfinder RPG "3.P". It's silly.
When you use the word Gish outside of describing gith; George Lucas gets a little closer to replacing the ewoks with jar-jar binks.Wouldn't make much of a difference in my book. Both are utterly deplorable.
But I also hate it when the word "gish" is abused like that. Or people still calling the Pathfinder RPG "3.P". It's silly.
Bilbo Bagshot: The Phantom Menace was eighteen months ago, Tim!
Tim: I know, Bilbo. Okay. It still hurts! It's just that kid wanted a Jar Jar doll!Bilbo Bagshot: Kids like Jar Jar!
Tim: Why?
Bilbo Bagshot: What about the Ewoks? They were rubbish! You don't complain about them!
Tim: Yeah, but Jar Jar Binks makes the Ewoks looking like... f%$!ing Shaft!
I have no idea who Bilbo Bagshot and Tim are supposed to be, but the Ewoks were already as bad as Jar-Jar back in 1983. Actually, I think they are even worse. There is nothing in "Return of the Jedi" that can redeem their presence.
Lest it had a wookie and dude it had solo, so ya know that may even out
I have no idea who Bilbo Bagshot and Tim are supposed to be, but the Ewoks were already as bad as Jar-Jar back in 1983. Actually, I think they are even worse. There is nothing in "Return of the Jedi" that can redeem their presence.
Alas, to live a life without having watched spaced. *Hugs* Its alright, we will do what we can to ensure that you see it eventually.