Seems to be the topic of rage across several different forums (including the parody ones). A number of us (including myself) have posted their own version of what they feel a non-PrC fighter-mage should be envisioned. Some show promise, some need a bit of work, and some are simply epic fail.
Rather than get into the full vs 3/4 BAB, d10 vs d8 HD, 6th vs 9th lvl spell casting, bard vs ranger spell progression discussions, I want to focus purely on what spells this archtype should possess in his repetoire.
Some have indicated that this archtype should be casting melee touch spells through his weapon. But if one reviews the list of available spells in the PF core rulebook or the PFSRD, there isn't a whole lot to choose from.
Some have suggested that this archtype should have a sorcerer / wizard spell selection primarily from the Abjuration and Evocation schools, plus possibly one other. But I cannot imagine this archtype having use for arcane lock (2nd lvl abjuration) or tiny hut (3rd lvl evocation).
For now, I'd simply like to see how some people envision this archtype's spell list -- using Pathfinder core spells only. For some, it may be a challenge or a limitation, but I figure it's good to start with the basics and if there seems to be a repeating pattern / consensus of spells being brought up, those spells should be inclusive.
This exercise can be as simple as posting spells from levels 0 through 9 and each instance can be tallied into a total to see how many times that spell appears on an individual's list. My thought is to primarily use the Sor/Wiz spell list, but if you decide to include a spell that does not appear on the Sor/Wiz, but you feel that it warrants inclusion, please mention whose spell list it appears in for the ease of cross reference.
EDIT: Kolokotroni has essentially thrown down the gauntlet here (at the bottom of his post), so I'll use his as an example.
With that in mind, I'm going to get to work putting up my own list.
For those who participate, thanks for amusing me in this endeavor!
Just as an aside, my spell list is not based on schools, its more of the idea that my vision of a fighter mage's spell list would include, buffs/offensive spells primarily. With a very limited selection of utilities. I dont think limiting it to touch spells is a good idea as there really arent enough of those in the core. The 'inflict' spells were meant as a parody of the bard having cure spells which is the class i used as the basis for mine.
I also think that it may be difficult to ignore the other aspects of the class while still defining the spell list fairly. For instance, a full BAB HD class should not have the same spells as an average bab d8 class no?
Kolokotroni has the right of it. Spell list is one of the last things done for your arcane warrior class
You need HD and BAB along with the together ablitys it might have before deciding whats a balance to it. Does it get full level? all the spells? do we cap it at 5 or 6 or 7th level? do we make the list very small and focused? or more wide use but lacking some heavy hitting spells?
there is a lot to decide before you get to the spell list
I'd start with a well-built Edritch Knight and a well-built Arcane Archer, then retcon them back into a base class. For example, a Ftr 2/Wiz 8/EldKt 10 has BAB +16, CL 17th (8th level spells) at 20th level. That works out to 3/4 BAB and nearly full casting, with unlimited arcane spells access and a couple of bonus feats.
On the flip side, a Ftr 8/Wiz 2/ArcArch 10 is looking at BAB +19, CL 9th, for full BAB and 1/2 casting. He's also got limitless arcane spells access, and enjoys a LOT of nifty class features. Even a Ftr 4/Wiz 6/ArcArch 10 has BAB +17 (nearly full), CL 13th (3/4, like a bard) and lots of good class features.
Therefore, I'd be hesitant to limit the spells list (a la the Duskblade). Instead, a 3/4 BAB, 3/4 spellcaster (like the bard) with good supporting class features seems like a good fit. Alternatively, a full BAB, 3/4 caster should get a lot fewer class features. I'd avoid making a full BAB, 1/2 caster class at all, because at that point you might as well play a paladin.
Therefore, I'd be hesitant to limit the spells list (a la the Duskblade). Instead, a 3/4 BAB, 3/4 spellcaster (like the bard) with good supporting class features seems like a good fit.
Bards are 2/3 casters. :)
Personally, I don't see bards as sword mages. Yes, you can *make* them into sword mages, but bards are first and foremost a buff class with excellent melee -support-.
For a true sword mage, it shouldn't step on the toes of any other characters already hanging around. I think the class should be a 1/2 caster, but not like a paladin or ranger. Full caster level, prepared spellcasting based on intelligence with 4 levels of spells (and cantrips). Give them spells right from level 1, and by the time you're at 20 give them 6/6/6/5 spells per day. Make it supplemental, but strong enough to be valid. I'd make the list heavy with combat buffs, like shield, haste, and magic weapon. Give them armored casting, full BAB, and perhaps some weapon enhancement class features that you can activate a number of times per day. Additional damage dice, INT to damage, etc. Things that the other classes aren't doing.
Basically, I'd make him a striker class like a soul knife or hexblade.
I'm well aware that HD and BAB takes into factor what should essentially be on this archtype's spell list. I eventually will want to tally up the HD / BAB numbers when I get to those steps.
Right now, I just want to see what spells make it into your archtype's list based on how you imagine it should be. If you don't want to include 7th to 9th level spells, then that's fine. If you see a cleric spell that should be inclusive (like the inflict X wounds that Kolokotroni brought up in his), or something on the bard's list, then insert that.
Right now, I am building an excel spreadsheet that has all the Sor/Wiz spells as listed in the PF rulebook, their levels, and their schools. Then I'm adding the poster's name and 'checking' the spells that he/she envisions. When we get to a stopping point and move to the next step, I'll post the results (most likely a link). Aside from which spells get chosen the most and the least, it'll also be interesting to note other patterns that may appear (such as the schools selected).
Right now, I've plugged in Kolokotroni's selections. I'll post up mine shortly.
I think it will be an interesting exercise. We can reserve the HD / BAB, etc. discussion to the other threads that already exist for them.
Thanks!
I like lots of flame based spells myself.
Like it has been said, i also think the spell list should include buffs for the caster (enhancing his stats, his defense or efficiency), debuffs against the opponents (weakening or hindering them) and effects for the weapon (enchantments, magic effects).
I like lots of flame based spells myself.
I do too. I have been thinking that it might be interesting if the Gish had some area spells, like fireball, but could not cast them at range. Rather they had to cast them at their "square", and of course would be immune to their own spells damage/effects, at least for the round it is cast in. But then again, the class features I have in mind are about changing the way spells are cast, making them require more movement, a little more work on the part of the character.
I think that in selecting the spell list, you have to be mindful of stepping on a straight caster/wizard's toes. While the buffing spells make good sense, many of the other spells arcane casters have are designed to be used from behind the party line, and are targeted to "touch" AC to take into account the poor BAB. If the Gish is a front line fighter, there is no good reason for him to be casting. Casting the front line is generally something you do last ditch.
That said, I think that some elemental damage effects are what a lot of point think about when they think of a gish, flaming blades, lightning discharging off of a weapon, etc.
The archtypical Gish is an evoker. You may want to keep that in mind when designing the spell list and the class.
I don't really agree with that statement.
I don't see the gish as a nuker.Many casting warriors are using their magic for two things :
- To improve their abilities, being stronger and faster. That falls into Transmutation.
- To increasing their defense and resistance. That falls into Abjuration.
|
The archtypical Gish is an evoker. You may want to keep that in mind when designing the spell list and the class.
From what I've seen, the role tends to focus on spells to enhance its fighting ability, drawing heavily from Transmutation. (Bull's Strength, Haste, Alter Self, Displacement, etc.) Evocation spells, archetypically, would be spells that add elemental damage or properties to one's melee ability, such as Flame/Frost Weapon or Fire Shield.
I suppose that varies depending on the nature of the class. A full BAB, full HD class is going to have less need for 'buffs' to keep up with the other fighter types. A 3/4ths BAB, d8 HD class might need to cast spells to catch up to where the Fighter is already starting.
IMO, the ideal class wouldn't use spells at all, but have magical powers / enhancements that can be invoked during combat to enhance their own abilities, gaining bonuses similar to those of a Ranger or Barbarian, but more overtly magical in nature. A magical version of the Soulknife, imbuing magical properties into his melee weapon, could even be an option. The character might even have differing abilities based on the schools of magic. His evocation effect would give his weapon the Flaming (Frost, Shock) property for a brief time, his illusion effect would give him a Blur (Displacement) defense in combat, his divination effect would give him bonuses to hit a single target (and to avoid that single target's blows), his enchantment effect would enhance his use of Intimidate and / or include a 5 ft. radius fear aura that causes those who engage him in melee to be Shaken, his necromantic effect would allow him to restore hit points of damage or gain temporary hit points as he does melee damage to another, etc. He'd get eight powers, and could invoke X powers / day, from those eight school powers, depending on the situation, as a free action during combat, with various effects lasting 1 round or 1 minute or whatever seems appropriately balanced.
Pure spellcasting, combined with fighting, IMO, creates a mess of the action economy. Either the class has time to prepare, and expends a percentage of his daily resources just 'catching up' to what a Barbarian or Paladin can do as a free action by activating Rage or Smite, or he doesn't have time to prepare and is strictly worse than having a Paladin or Barbarian in the group.
OK, if we're going to limit access to Sor/Wiz spells, then let's add some useful divine spells to his list to make up for it. Shield of faith, bless, magic vestment, divine favor, divine power, divine might, cure X wounds, sound burst, freedom of movement all jump out at me.
If we're building a list of sorcerer/wizard + additional spells, these are the ones I see as most useful:
Divine:
Divine Favor, Entropic Shield, Magic Stone, Shield of Faith, Align Weapon, Magic Vestment, Disrupting Weapon, Animate Objects, Heroes' Feast, Longstrider, Chill Metal, Flame Blade, Heat Metal, Snare, Rusting Grasp
Just at a glance.
I always picture the duskblade/gish as a melee combatant that self-buffs and has magical "trump cards:" occasional extra damage & de-buffs (usually single-targeted, but a few area effects), defense & escape, speed & manuverability.
Well I like that my Spellthane name is getting some use!
For my money I'm pretty unwilling to budge on this being a full BAB class. Just having BAB doesn't mean you're stepping on the fighter's toes, he gets (now) class benefits and perks as well as 11 (*gasp*) bonus combat feats. A Spellthane should get spells instead of feats.
I think that they should have Medium armor and possibly no shield proficiency. 2 skills per level is just fine. Good Fort and Will OR just good Will, I like the idea that they NEED magic to overcome their frailness. D10 HPs or D8, I'm fine either way. Pathfinder is pretty standardized and having it be D8 would stray from that standard, but this will be a very different class ;).
I like the idea of spontaneous elemental weapons. Maybe a number of times per day, maybe by giving up a spell slot, you get to add an elemental bonus to your weapon i.e. flaming, frost, shock or vicious. Also at higher levels they can add the burst version.
I think that either being able to channel spells through a melee attack or being able to cast select spells automatically quickened is clutch. Not that they shouldn't give something up to do this, give the ability at lvl 6 and make it a standard action.
Weapon bond like Paladin or wizard with Arcane Bond would be a big plus.
As for spells, concentrate on 1)touch attacks 2)buffs like shield or bulls strength 3)minor utility or summoning. MIB is right that the buff up then wade into melee is sort of the Cleric shtick and we want, mainly, to stab dudes with magic. I think that bard-ish progression i.e. 2/3 and spontaneous casting is the best way to go.
Now that I've thought about it I am pretty certain I am removing all illusion and enchantment spells from my spell list, I think it would make more sense to focus on Transmutation, Conjuration and Abjuration. I am on the fence about evocation, I am think just a few key spells. Maybe a few necromancy spells for debuffs at the point of a sword. Anyway I am likely going to repost a version of my 'Sword Mage' sometime today.
There's gish as a fighter/mage proto-role (what does it do?) and proper Gish, a specific concept that fits in the larger circle of arcane melee sorts.
Not to put too fine a point on it but a proper Gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard. It is not a concept that fits into anything. I don't know why this has to constantly be repeated.
Not to put too fine a point on it but a proper Gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard. It is not a concept that fits into anything. I don't know why this has to constantly be repeated.
There's gish as a fighter/mage proto-role (what does it do?) and proper Gish, a specific concept that fits in the larger circle of arcane melee sorts.
Because the same way google is now a verb, the meaning of the term 'gish' has changed. Theres another thread to discuss this topic, so i'll stop the thread jack now, but feel free to post your grievances on the degredation of gaming language there.
Because the same way google is now a verb, the meaning of the term 'gish' has changed. Theres another thread to discuss this topic, so i'll stop the thread jack now, but feel free to post your grievances on the degredation of gaming language there.Not to put too fine a point on it but a proper Gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard. It is not a concept that fits into anything. I don't know why this has to constantly be repeated.
There's gish as a fighter/mage proto-role (what does it do?) and proper Gish, a specific concept that fits in the larger circle of arcane melee sorts.
I understand that, and that is not what I am saying at all. I doubt very many people out there are saying that searching Google, the noun, is not a proper google, the verb. I am not trying to threadjack, I was responding to the implication that somehow the Gish, the one that started it all, is somehow not a proper gish. To me it's like defineing the phrase duck in such a way that a male mallard is disqualified from being a proper duck. The statement was made here, so responding to it on another thread seems almost as ridiculous as the original statement was.
Since I am the OP, I’d like to take upon this opportunity to get the thread back on topic.
This is my list of spells that I think should be considered for this archetype. This is not to say that I believe that all of these spells should be included. I am not concerned about what spell level this archetype should be able to cast them; that will be addressed in a later step once a polled consensus has decided what should be its caster level progression.
I know there are a number of you that have homebrewed your own archetypes for this (I’ve read a number of them here on Paizo). By all means, please participate and/or link to them (preferably to another Paizo thread as some sites may be restricted due to firewall issues).
Step 2 can be found here. It’ll address BAB, HD, saves progression, skill ranks per level, caster level progression, primary ability stat, whether this should be a spontaneous or a prepared caster, whether the entire spell list should be available when that caster level is reached (like the warmage) or gains new spells from selecting them each level progression.
______________________________________________________________________
- Resistance
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Dancing Lights
Flare
Ray of Frost
Disrupt Undead
Touch of Fatigue
Mage Hand
Arcane Mark1
- Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Shield
Mage Armor
True Strike
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Shocking Grasp
Color Spray
Chill Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Jump
Magic Weapon
Inflict Light Wounds (Cleric 1)
- Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy
Acid Arrow
Glitterdust
See Invisibility
Touch of Idiocy
Continual Flame
Darkness
Scorching Ray
Blur
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Ghoul Touch
Spectral Hand
Bear’s Endurance
Bull’s Strength
Cat’s Grace
Darkvision
Eagle’s Splendor2
Fox’s Cunning2
Levitate
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Cleric 2)
Sound Burst (Bard/Cleric 2)
- Dispel Magic
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Protection from Energy
Arcane Sight
Heroism
Daylight
Lightning Bolt
Wind Wall
Displacement
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Blink
Haste
Keen Edge
Magic Weapon, Greater
Slow
Inflict Serious Wounds (Cleric 3)
Invisibility Purge (Cleric 3)
- Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Stoneskin
Dimension Door
Crushing Despair
Fire Shield
Invisibility, Greater
Bestow Curse
Contagion
Enervation
Inflict Critical Wounds (Cleric 4)
Freedom of Movement (Bard/Cleric/Druid/Ranger 4)
Poison (Cleric 4/Druid 3)
- Teleport
Cone of Cold
Wall of Force
Blight
Waves of Fatigue
Telekinesis
- Antimagic Field
Dispel Magic, Greater
Globe of Invulnerability
Repulsion
True Seeing
Heroism, Greater
Chain Lightning
Mislead
Shadow Walk
Eyebite
Disintegrate
Transformation
- Spell Turning
Instant Summons
Teleport, Greater
Arcane Sight, Greater
Power Word Blind
Prismatic Spray
Finger of Death
Waves of Exhaustion
Ethereal Jaunt
- Prismatic Wall
Protection from Spells
Moment of Prescience
Irresistible Dance
Power Word Stun
Polar Ray
Sunburst
- Mage’s Disjunction
Prismatic Sphere
Power Word Kill
Energy Drain
Time Stop
OK, if we're going to limit access to Sor/Wiz spells, then let's add some useful divine spells to his list to make up for it. Shield of faith, bless, magic vestment, divine favor, divine power, divine might, cure X wounds, sound burst, freedom of movement all jump out at me.
I agree with some of what you listed, but not the divine based spells. After all, we're talking about an arcane fighter.
I always picture the duskblade/gish as a melee combatant that self-buffs and has magical "trump cards:" occasional extra damage & de-buffs (usually single-targeted, but a few area effects), defense & escape, speed & manuverability.
I agree with you (and will likely be pointed out as such in the spell list I posted above).
Now that I've thought about it I am pretty certain I am removing all illusion and enchantment spells from my spell list, I think it would make more sense to focus on Transmutation, Conjuration and Abjuration. I am on the fence about evocation, I am think just a few key spells. Maybe a few necromancy spells for debuffs at the point of a sword. Anyway I am likely going to repost a version of my 'Sword Mage' sometime today.
Could you care to repost (or link) your spell list here too? Thanks!
|
OK, if we're going to limit access to Sor/Wiz spells, then let's add some useful divine spells to his list to make up for it. Shield of faith, bless, magic vestment, divine favor, divine power, divine might, cure X wounds, sound burst, freedom of movement all jump out at me.I agree with some of what you listed, but not the divine based spells. After all, we're talking about an arcane fighter.
So change the names.
OK, if we're going to limit access to Sor/Wiz spells, then let's add some useful divine spells to his list to make up for it. Shield of Sorcery, bless, magic vestment, Favor of Nethys, Power of Nethys, Might of Nethys, cure X wounds, sound burst, freedom of movement all jump out at me.
Couldn't think of something else to call bless.
Not to put too fine a point on it but a proper Gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard. It is not a concept that fits into anything. I don't know why this has to constantly be repeated.
There's gish as a fighter/mage proto-role (what does it do?) and proper Gish, a specific concept that fits in the larger circle of arcane melee sorts.
[invoking_Bill_Clinton's_"is"_redefinition_power]
"Gish", for the purposes of this thread, is simply an epithet for a fighter-magic user that predates your existence (or invasion).
[/invoking_Bill_Clinton's_"is"_redefinition_power]
So change the names.
OK, if we're going to limit access to Sor/Wiz spells, then let's add some useful divine spells to his list to make up for it. Shield of Sorcery, bless, magic vestment, Favor of Nethys, Power of Nethys, Might of Nethys, cure X wounds, sound burst, freedom of movement all jump out at me.Couldn't think of something else to call bless.
Not a bad idea. For all intent and purposes, I'm attempting to keep to the original spells as they are for the exercise. But if you wish to share your list and include the original spell names, I'll be glad to include them in the compilation I'm tracking in excel.
Thanks!
Now that I've thought about it I am pretty certain I am removing all illusion and enchantment spells from my spell list, I think it would make more sense to focus on Transmutation, Conjuration and Abjuration. I am on the fence about evocation, I am think just a few key spells. Maybe a few necromancy spells for debuffs at the point of a sword. Anyway I am likely going to repost a version of my 'Sword Mage' sometime today.Could you care to repost (or link) your spell list here too? Thanks!
Sure
Thanks!
Here's what I noticed:
- Daze
Daze Monster
Touch of Idiocy
Hold Person
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
Phantasmal Killer
Dominated Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Wall of Force
- Burning Hands
Antimagic Field
May I ask for the "method to your madness"?
Just out of curiosity, if I can deal 1d8+5 damage with a longsword, why would I take inflict light wounds as a spell? Yeah, it's a touch attack, but it lacks the longsword's 19-20 crit range, and also allows a save for half, so overall the longsword (which can also make iterative attacks, and isn't used up on a hit) is a MUCH better bet.
The ONLY reason to include inflict wounds spells is if there is a class feature that enables you to cast them through a weapon, so that the effects stack. Otherwise, it seems like the cure wounds spells would be a far more useful addition to the class.
|
|
I'm at work and don't have time to flesh out a spell list right now, but I will say that the list the original poster came up with seems wayyyyyyyy too broad and potent. Many of those spells are incredibly powerful iconic wizard spells that have no place on an arcane warriors list. Don't encourage the people who think this is an exercise in developing a gestalt character and pretending it's balanced for regular game-play!
I think there should be a few options for blaster type spells, but probably not the best ones and certainly not many. The bulk should be self-buffs, combat advantage spells, and touch spells that cover a small range of damaging and de-buffing possibilities.
The problem really, really is (as somebody already mentioned) that until there's a consensus on the mechanics of the class, there can't really be a clear idea of what spells work well with that class. If there's no spell channeling ability, the touch spells don't make a lot of sense. If there's no quick casting ability, the buffs need to be very well thought-out, and possibly include a variety of swift versions of spells to compensate, etc., etc.
This really should be the last thing considered for any class like this.
I think there should be a few options for blaster type spells, but probably not the best ones and certainly not many. The bulk should be self-buffs, combat advantage spells, and touch spells that cover a small range of damaging and de-buffing possibilities.
Your comments re: spell channeling and/or quick casting being needed for certain categories of spells to get any use are right on the money.
The one place I differ in opinion is that I consider the "best" blaster spells to be sort of an oxymoron, in 3.0/3.5/PF. Giving the arcane warrior access to all blasting spells at the expense of other (more useful) ones will only make the class weaker, not stronger. Battlefield control and save-or-lose are the "best" spells in terms of effectiveness and efficiency, with debuffs a useful addition. Blasting is a very distant last-place choice (unless you're talking a vampiric touch channeled through a sword as part of a full attack, rather than a lousy fireball).
SureThanks!
Here's what I noticed:
Daze
Daze Monster
Touch of Idiocy
Hold Person
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
Phantasmal Killer
Dominated Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Wall of Force
Burning Hands
Antimagic FieldMay I ask for the "method to your madness"?
I think that I wanted to get the class away from enchantment and illusion schools. Thats the bards thing, let them have it (i left heroism and greater heroism in there because they are solid buff spells and are really only 'enchantment' in name to me. I also started to think that the character should not have alot of ranged blasty spells. Because I made weapon channel a primary feature i think their spells should all make sense from the tip of a sword. Blowing up a fireball all around you while cool, doesnt really fit. I did however leave in cones, as that still fits the up close and personal image I have of the class. The walls too dont make much sense at the end of his sword, I really think it is a good idea to put some limits on evocation, and I thought cones (or specified targets) only might be a good start.
Antimagic Field seems like a really good spell for this class. Sure it hurts them too, but they still have descent martial abilities. It would be a great 'take out the evil wizard' option in their hands.
|
|
The one place I differ in opinion is that I consider the "best" blaster spells to be sort of an oxymoron, in 3.0/3.5/PF. Giving the arcane warrior access to all blasting spells at the expense of other (more useful) ones will only make the class weaker, not stronger. Battlefield control and save-or-lose are the "best" spells in terms of effectiveness and efficiency, with debuffs a useful addition. Blasting is a very distant last-place choice (unless you're talking a vampiric touch channeled through a sword as part of a full attack, rather than a lousy fireball).
I don't disagree. Save-or-die and area-of-effect spells are obviously way better than blasty spells. I just think blasting is probably more of an after-thought for a class like this, and it doesn't make much sense to overload their spell list with spells like that because it gives a false impression about its priorities. If I saw a spell list with shield, invisibility, fireball, lightning bolt, disintegrate, and polar ray, I'm going to think "oh, this guy's a blaster... that's boring" and move on. And that's not fair to the class. If I see shield, shocking grasp, invisibility, dimension door, true strike, vampiric touch, mirror image, and fireball, I'm going to get a more accurate picture of what the class is really all about.
Blasting is just a little added versatility to help the class out of a pinch, like giving a fighter a crossbow in case he can't get into the thick of the fight for some reason.
Just out of curiosity, if I can deal 1d8+5 damage with a longsword, why would I take inflict light wounds as a spell? Yeah, it's a touch attack, but it lacks the longsword's 19-20 crit range, and also allows a save for half, so overall the longsword (which can also make iterative attacks, and isn't used up on a hit) is a MUCH better bet.
The ONLY reason to include inflict wounds spells is if there is a class feature that enables you to cast them through a weapon, so that the effects stack. Otherwise, it seems like the cure wounds spells would be a far more useful addition to the class.
I can't speak for anyone else, but yes -- the reason *I* selected inflict wounds is for the reason you indicated - cast through a weapon. I did not choose cure wounds as I felt that this was a niche that is already handled by both the cleric and to lesser extent, the bard and druid.
Second, while I have it listed as a level 1 spell, it doesn't necessarily mean that I feel that it would be a level 1 spell for this particular archetype. If it were me, I would make these inflict spells +1 level higher. But that's for a future step later in the exercise.
As for your plus +5, that depends on if you're playing a STR based arcane warrior and/or in possession of at least a +1 magic weapon or certain feats. It may be different for a dex based character. But that's the topic for a later discussion too. :)
I'm at work and don't have time to flesh out a spell list right now, but I will say that the list the original poster came up with seems wayyyyyyyy too broad and potent. Many of those spells are incredibly powerful iconic wizard spells that have no place on an arcane warriors list. Don't encourage the people who think this is an exercise in developing a gestalt character and pretending it's balanced for regular game-play!
I think there should be a few options for blaster type spells, but probably not the best ones and certainly not many. The bulk should be self-buffs, combat advantage spells, and touch spells that cover a small range of damaging and de-buffing possibilities.
This really should be the last thing considered for any class like this.
Let me include you in on a secret - I essentially agree with you. If you read my post in STEP 2, you'll see that I chose the bard caster style progression (which is only 6). To be truthful, if I were creating the archetype, I wouldn't include any of the 9th level spells. And when this stage of the exercise is concluded, I seriously doubt that that of the spells chosen in the majority, these aren't going to make it. However, as for the 8th level spells, I could see some of them fitting into a 6th level for this archetype (i.e. Polar Ray is a great example).
The one place I differ in opinion is that I consider the "best" blaster spells to be sort of an oxymoron, in 3.0/3.5/PF. Giving the arcane warrior access to all blasting spells at the expense of other (more useful) ones will only make the class weaker, not stronger. Battlefield control and save-or-lose are the "best" spells in terms of effectiveness and efficiency, with debuffs a useful addition. Blasting is a very distant last-place choice (unless you're talking a vampiric touch channeled through a sword as part of a full attack, rather than a lousy fireball).I don't disagree. Save-or-die and area-of-effect spells are obviously way better than blasty spells. I just think blasting is probably more of an after-thought for a class like this, and it doesn't make much sense to overload their spell list with spells like that because it gives a false impression about its priorities. If I saw a spell list with shield, invisibility, fireball, lightning bolt, disintegrate, and polar ray, I'm going to think "oh, this guy's a blaster... that's boring" and move on. And that's not fair to the class. If I see shield, shocking grasp, invisibility, dimension door, true strike, vampiric touch, mirror image, and fireball, I'm going to get a more accurate picture of what the class is really all about.
Blasting is just a little added versatility to help the class out of a pinch, like giving a fighter a crossbow in case he can't get into the thick of the fight for some reason.
The more I think about it, the more I am coming around to your side of things. I still want some cool elemental effects, but something that keeps them using their weapons as opposed to area nukes. It probably should be 40% utility, 40% buffs, 20% offensive.
mmm back to the drawing board.
I think that I wanted to get the class away from enchantment and illusion schools. Thats the bards thing, let them have it (i left heroism and greater heroism in there because they are solid buff spells and are really only 'enchantment' in name to me. I also started to think that the character should not have alot of ranged blasty spells. Because I made weapon channel a primary feature i think their spells should all make sense from the tip of a sword. Blowing up a fireball all around you while cool, doesnt really fit. I did however leave in cones, as that still fits the up close and personal image I have of the class. The walls too dont make much sense at the end of his sword, I really think it is a good idea to put some limits on evocation, and I thought cones (or specified targets) only might be a good start.
Antimagic Field seems like a really good spell for this class. Sure it hurts them too, but they still have descent martial abilities. It would be a great 'take out the evil wizard' option in their hands.
Thanks for the comments. I agree on the ranged blasty spells; I don't see that either (with the exception of the cones for exactly the reasons as you described). Unlike you, I did keep some illusions and enchantments as I envision them more of a defensive nature. Wall of Wind and Wall of Force serves their place. The ones I chose were 'inivisible' and did not go for Fire, Ice, or Stone. More like a force field (which is what an antimagic field is to me), if that makes sense?
Again, thanks for participating!
Edit: post ended up in the wrong thread nothing to see here, move along ;)
Hopefully some of you that have commented earlier will post your own lists when you get a chance. Right now, I'm in possesion of 3 lists (including myself).
Thanks for participating.
Personally I think it would be easier to adjudicate it available schools to choose from rather than a list onto itself (good for continued support through books).
So I would give them acces to evocation, abjuration and transmutation of whatever spell levels they would have acces to.
I think i would give them conjuration before evocation, but thats just me. I also like some of the spells in the necromancy school. My mindset is that the bard is a good starting point, and it has a rather focused spell list. If i gave full access to a bunch of schools it would be closer to a full caster then the bard is which I dont want.
|
problem with that is that it would require an analizis of every spell that would be made available to them, since bard has many spells that are lower lvl than their sorcerer/wizard counterparts (and with a reazon).
Choosing not so strong schools just seems like a good way to simplify a good class (in my opinion at least).
Oh and regarding conjuration, the reazon i would avoid it is because it ha by far the best spels around.
And as a cherry on top giving them the chance to choose a few spells through their career (a la advanced knowledge) from different schools would make them fit some concepts (enervating sword attack comes to mind)
Personally I think it would be easier to adjudicate it available schools to choose from rather than a list onto itself (good for continued support through books).
So I would give them acces to evocation, abjuration and transmutation of whatever spell levels they would have acces to.
So, would I be putting you down for levels 0 through 9 for all evocation, abjuration, and transmutation spells on the Sor/Wiz list, or do you want to cap it off somewhere at a lower level?
And as a cherry on top giving them the chance to choose a few spells through their career (a la advanced knowledge) from different schools would make them fit some concepts (enervating sword attack comes to mind)
I was going to suggest a spell research type option for the class also. I think it makes a lot of sense to provide a really narrow spell list and then let people hand select one or two personal favourite spells with which to expand their list.
When we get to the stage of reviewing class options, I definitely will have this up as an option to select on. I don't want to speak for him, but from what I've read in other threads, I think David Fryer probably would too. So there's at least four of us...