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I'm trying to wrap my little head around DR
I'm seeing in the core manual:
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
Ok, so I have a Were-monkey with a DR 5/silver as part of its traits.
(Were-monkey is a mythological creature not in the Beastiary used for demonstration sake).If I use a regular long sword 1d8, then strike it 2 times with
Example 1
1d8 =3 (no damage did not penetrate DR)
Example 2
1d8 =7 (2 points damage because of -5 DR)
If I have a silver (alchemal, or silver sheened) long sword then:
Example 1 I score 3 points damage
Example 2 I score 7 points damage
Now here is where I'm confused: Magical weapons:
+1 Longsword
Do I score
Example 1
no damage as 4 points do not exceed DR
Example 2
3 points of damage as that is the amount that exceeds DR
or
Do I score
Example 1
I score 4 points of damage as Magic weapons ignore the DR reduction
Example 2
I score 8 points of damage as Magic Weapons ignore the DR reduction
Thanks for clarifying this for me. I have tried searching the paizo site and the web and I get a very confusing jumble of old 3.0 and 3.5 rulings that I am not sure how it was changed and is reflected by the pathfinder update.
Part of the problem I see is that the language assumes prior knowledge and evolution of the dnd 3.0 to 3.5, but I'm a returning player from 1.0 days, so this is all confusing to me.
Thanks
Robyn
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Magical enhancement bonuses on weapons only overcome damage reductions at certain thresholds.
+3 weapons count as cold iron and silver for DR purposes.
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
+5 weapons count as alignment weapons (good, evil, lawful, chaotic) for DR purposes.
+1 and +2 weapons only overcome DR/magic, plus the damage type/s (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) and material (silver, cold iron, adamantine) of the base weapon.
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Magical enhancement bonuses on weapons only overcome damage reductions at certain thresholds.
+3 weapons count as cold iron and silver for DR purposes.
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
+5 weapons count as alignment weapons (good, evil, lawful, chaotic) for DR purposes.+1 and +2 weapons only overcome DR/magic, plus the damage type/s (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) and material (silver, cold iron, adamantine) of the base weapon.
Ok that covers DR/silver, DR/Cold Iron, DR/Adamanite, DR/Alignment,
But what about
DR/Slashing
DR/Piercing
etc.
??
I already mentioned that. Magical bonuses on weapons only overcome those specific types of DR. If you don't have a slashing weapon handy and you come across a creature with DR 10/slashing, you're going to be doing less damage with every hit, regardless of how magical your weapon is. Same with DR/(un)holy, DR/-, and anything else aside from DR/cold iron, silver, adamantine, magic, good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
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Magical enhancement bonuses on weapons only overcome damage reductions at certain thresholds.
+3 weapons count as cold iron and silver for DR purposes.
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
+5 weapons count as alignment weapons (good, evil, lawful, chaotic) for DR purposes.+1 and +2 weapons only overcome DR/magic, plus the damage type/s (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) and material (silver, cold iron, adamantine) of the base weapon.
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Damage ReductionMagical enhancement bonuses on weapons only overcome damage reductions at certain thresholds.
+3 weapons count as cold iron and silver for DR purposes.
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
+5 weapons count as alignment weapons (good, evil, lawful, chaotic) for DR purposes.+1 and +2 weapons only overcome DR/magic, plus the damage type/s (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) and material (silver, cold iron, adamantine) of the base weapon.
This says nothing more than the rulebook says.
I guess I need a doctorate in reading d20 rule books to get a clarification on this.
It really is not making much sense to me and is not straight forward in its explaination.
Assume that you are explaining this to a beginning player and not someone with a 4 year or higher education degree.
The language needs to be much simpler!
This is why I was asking for example I guess.
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I don't mean to be rude, but are you trying not to understand it? From where I'm sitting it's pretty simple.
If your weapon meets the standard qualifications (for example, if the opponent's DR is slashing adamantine and you have an adamantine scimitar) you bypass the DR.
Additionally, at certain magical enhancement bonus levels (these are real enhancement bonuses, not equivalent values of special abilities or spell granted enhancement bonuses) a weapon will skip past some DR's, as listed in the chart.
Damage type DR's (slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning) are never effected by enhancement bonuses. A zombie doesn't care if your rapier is +20 epic rapier of world piercing, it's going to ignore some of it's damage.
Damage reduction may be overcome by magic weapons
So this really doesn't mean anything then, other than it gives you a bonus to the damage, and if you get enough bonuses you will exceed the DR?(and enough +s do equate to silver/cold iron/adamanite) so + weapons do not bypass DR/slashing,piercing, -, etcs.
Damage reduction may be overcome by magic weapons
Read it in context. Read the entire sentence.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.
That's giving a list of which types of weapons properties might (read the word "may" in the first phrase) overcome DR. You don't seem to be confused by slashing weapons not overcoming DR/adamantine, even though it uses the exact same wording.
You're reading way too much into that sentence.
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Damage reduction may be overcome by magic weaponsRead it in context. Read the entire sentence.
Overcoming DR: Damage reduction may be overcome by special materials, magic weapons (any weapon with a +1 or higher enhancement bonus, not counting the enhancement from masterwork quality), certain types of weapons (such as slashing or bludgeoning), and weapons imbued with an alignment.That's giving a list of which types of weapons properties might (read the word "may" in the first phrase) overcome DR. You don't seem to be confused by slashing weapons not overcoming DR/adamantine, even though it uses the exact same wording.
You're reading way too much into that sentence.
What I've gotten so far in response from most of you you is that you are simply speaking slower and louder that same sentences.
In the teaching profession they call that the ignorant american (example: "Which way to the airport" to a native spanish speaker in a loud voice, enunciated slowly).
So what you are telling me is that magic is simply another physical property like silver, cold iron, et al.
So magic bonuses in general do not bypass DR except in the three exceptions noted below
+3 weapons count as cold iron and silver for DR purposes.
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
+5 weapons count as alignment weapons (good, evil, lawful, chaotic) for DR purposes
Am I finally getting this right?
Absolutely correct.
EDIT: And DR/magic, which any magical weapon will overcome.
With DR/magic I think the enhancement bonus should actually mean something. Recently my players were attacked by a monster with DR15/magic when they were level 15! What's the point of DR15/magic if a level 3 fighter with a +1 weapon can ignore all the DR?
So I house-rule [as do many others] that each +1 enhancement bonus [not enhancement abilities, like fire, cold, holy etc] will overcome 5 points of DR/magic. So in the above example a +3 weapon would overcome the DR that monster had, however a +1 Holy weapon would only overcome 5 points of the 15 and therefore the monster would still have DR10/magic left to reduce the damage being done.
In Pathfinder any ability added to a weapon is less attractive than it was in 3.5 because of the enhancement bonuses now overcoming various DR's. Also, each +1 enhancement bonus increases the weapons Hardness & Hit Points, making it more likely to survive a Sunder attempt.
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With DR/magic I think the enhancement bonus should actually mean something. Recently my players were attacked by a monster with DR15/magic when they were level 15! What's the point of DR15/magic if a level 3 fighter with a +1 weapon can ignore all the DR?
So I house-rule [as do many others] that each +1 enhancement bonus [not enhancement abilities, like fire, cold, holy etc] will overcome 5 points of DR/magic. So in the above example a +3 weapon would overcome the DR that monster had, however a +1 Holy weapon would only overcome 5 points of the 15 and therefore the monster would still have DR10/magic left to reduce the damage being done.
In Pathfinder any ability added to a weapon is less attractive than it was in 3.5 because of the enhancement bonuses now overcoming various DR's. Also, each +1 enhancement bonus increases the weapons Hardness & Hit Points, making it more likely to survive a Sunder attempt.
I was just thinking this as well, what is the point of DR Magic
Like maybe DR 5/magic is great in the lvl 2-8 range, it might stifle a damage output of the party, non-weapon based party members might do next to nothing, and even the warrior with off hand might not have a magical off hand.
Once your out of that level range everyone has a magic weapon. Which really makes the Great Wyrm's dr 20/magic worthless unless it means +4 or better, or each +1 reduces the dr by 5
"DR/magic"...meh.
I went back to v3.0 for this one, house-ruling that DR/magic +1 is effective against creatures with a CR of 1-5, DR/magic +2 is effective against CR 6-10, etc.
...because I also believe that it's pointless after about 4th level.
"DR/magic"...meh.
I went back to v3.0 for this one, house-ruling that DR/magic +1 is effective against creatures with a CR of 1-5, DR/magic +2 is effective against CR 6-10, etc.
...because I also believe that it's pointless after about 4th level.
Agreed here too.
DR x/magic is wasted on any creature with a CR higher than 5 or so, yet you find it all over the place. Might as well not have it at all.
Unless you plan to drop such monsters into huge anti-magic fields all the time, a tactic that gets old after about the second time it's used.
I too despise the DR*/magic concept. What a freaking waste. What is the point really? I mean was it so hard saying DR5/+1 DR10/+2 DR15/+3 ? Doesn't that make the pluses more interesting and valuable besides being just another + to attack and damage? Doesn't it make it at least a tiny bit more interesting? I had hoped PF would revert to 3.0 DR rules but unfortunately not.
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DR X/+Y means that *nobody* has any economic reason in purchasing anything else than +Y weapons. It's a waste of money - you don't want to run the risk of being unable to punch thru DR 15/+3 just because instead of a +3 sword you have a +2 flaming burst holy keen sword.
I prefer the DR X/magic system, because it encourages slowing down with +Y and buying all those cool nice and sweet weapon enchantments from MIC.
Funnily enough, PF suffers from this issue due to "+Y overcomes DRs" rule, meaning it's a race for a +5 weapon so that alignment-based DRs can be punched thru.
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DR X/+Y means that *nobody* has any economic reason in purchasing anything else than +Y weapons. It's a waste of money - you don't want to run the risk of being unable to punch thru DR 15/+3 just because instead of a +3 sword you have a +2 flaming burst holy keen sword.
I prefer the DR X/magic system, because it encourages slowing down with +Y and buying all those cool nice and sweet weapon enchantments from MIC.
Funnily enough, PF suffers from this issue due to "+Y overcomes DRs" rule, meaning it's a race for a +5 weapon so that alignment-based DRs can be punched thru.
Well that is easy to overcome, you go with the same + the item is considered to be for the purpose of enchanting.
A +1 keen long sword would overcome DR10/+2
a +1 keen, flaming burst, vorpal long sword would overcome DR40/+8 (and be someone I wouldn't want to screw with :) )
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Well that is easy to overcome, you go with the same + the item is considered to be for the purpose of enchanting.A +1 keen long sword would overcome DR10/+2
a +1 keen, flaming burst, vorpal long sword would overcome DR40/+8 (and be someone I wouldn't want to screw with :) )
This intrigues me. Have you been using this system?
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Higher CR monsters with DR/magic have it not to protect from PCs, but from legions of peons. A dragon with DR 20/magic can plop down in the center of town and ignore anything the town guard can throw at him short of very large catapult/trebuchet missiles. That's why the town needs heroes to defend it!
Higher CR monsters with DR/magic have it not to protect from PCs, but from legions of peons. A dragon with DR 20/magic can plop down in the center of town and ignore anything the town guard can throw at him short of very large catapult/trebuchet missiles. That's why the town needs heroes to defend it!
I agree. The DR isn't just there for the PCs to worry about (or not once they get magical weapons). It's there for everybody to worry about.
If you want monster abilities geared around what PCs of a certain level are likely to have, that's a different edition.
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This intrigues me. Have you been using this system?
Well that is easy to overcome, you go with the same + the item is considered to be for the purpose of enchanting.A +1 keen long sword would overcome DR10/+2
a +1 keen, flaming burst, vorpal long sword would overcome DR40/+8 (and be someone I wouldn't want to screw with :) )
Not yet for a couple reasons:
1) Our party is ~lvl 8 so we are still on the high end of the efficacy of that DR.2) The AP we are using is all demons, so DR x/Cold Iron DR x/good etc.
3) We pretty much run RAW to mitigate disputes.
DR X/+Y means that *nobody* has any economic reason in purchasing anything else than +Y weapons. It's a waste of money - you don't want to run the risk of being unable to punch thru DR 15/+3 just because instead of a +3 sword you have a +2 flaming burst holy keen sword.
I like that -- it makes economic sense. A +5 sword costs 50,000 gp in enhancement bonuses alone. But in 3.5e, its actual worth was 350 gp (the cost of a masterwork weapon), because a simple greater magic weapon spell made a masterwork weapon into a +X weapon for the rest of the day. Net result? NO ONE bought a +2 enhancement, much less +3, +4, or +5. Never. Not once.
Using DR 15/+3 provided a built-in game reason why a +3 sword cost the same amount as a +1 holy sword. (Your +2 flaming burst holy keen sword is a +7 weapon, not a +3 weapon, BTW.)
Pathfinder hasn't gone all the way back to 3.0, but at least made a nod in the direction of "higher weapon enhancement bonuses should be worth the extra cost."
Stupid Question?
DR X/- is overcome by a weapon with +1 magic enhancement (or more)?
I didn't get DR right, like miniaturepeddler, until i found this thread.
In my case it could be my profession "german with lacking english skills" :-)
Thanks for the help.
DR x/- cannot by overcome by anything. A weapon with +1 (or more) magical enhancement bypasses DR x/magic.
Uh, the guy who plays a barbarian will be happy to hear that (and I guess the one with the fighter, too).
Thank you very much :)
Ok, so I have a Were-monkey with a DR 5/silver as part of its traits.
(Were-monkey is a mythological creature not in the Beastiary used for demonstration sake)....Robyn
Where can I find this new Golarion Mythological Beastiary? Is it in the Paizo product catalog yet?
Seriously, this is probably the most creative idea for were-creatures I have ever read. It actually makes sense that some magical disease causes you to regress to a Monkey/Ape. Could you imagine a barroom brawl where someone turns into a Silverback Gorilla? It would be like the magical equivalent of the Incredible Hulk.
I still love the "LICH" with DR 15/Bludgeoning and Magic.
That fighter with his +5 sword just chopping away and still having to reduce damage by -15 with each hit. Just got to love that :)
I still prefer the 3.0 way of handling magic DR. The monsters are still immune to most mundane attacks, and it creates a scaled challenge for heroes, so you get the best of both worlds. Besides, in D&D, pretty much every settlement has at least a few NPCs with +1 or +2 magic weapons. A goober with a +1 weapon being able to completely bypass an ancient dragon's DR just seems so horribly wrong.
Of course, I've always liked the AD&D immunities much better than 3.0's DR system. If you drop a mountain on a werewolf or pit fiend it should NOT kill the werewolf or pit fiend, unless there's a vein of silver or iron running across the bottom of the mountain. But whatever, D&D's combat system never made much sense to begin with.
Hi all, first post. if DR/- is the "uber DR" then what pray tell does DR/any do? I mean I see it saying that anything can overcome the DR... so the question is, how am I missing the point, technically speaking aren't all starting characters with DR/any, due to the fact that they don't have any DR?
I'm looking at the fighter high level DR, when wondering this. I remember being confused on this point in 3.5 also. I'm sure I'm just being thick. Thank you all.
Never mind, I misread it. I see it's DR/-
I just want a quick confirmation, my group for some reason thinks the DR15/Magic AND bludgeoning functions the same as OR.
I know this has to be wrong, can I get some confirmation?
To overcome DR 15/Magic and bludgeoning, you must be using an enchanted weapon that deals bludgeoning damage (warhammer, mace, morningstar, etc), or use a natural attack that deals bludgeoning damage if your attacks are treated as magical (bite, tail slap, wing buffet, etc).
To overcome DR 15/Magic or bludgeoning, you can either use a magic weapon or a bludgeoning weapon. The bludgeoning weapon doesn't need to be magic, and the magic weapon doesn't need to be bludgeoning.
I was wondering if the rules for overcoming damage reduction based on the enchantment of the weapon was something introduced in PF or was it in a 3.5 book and implemented.
Unless you plan to drop such monsters into huge anti-magic fields all the time, a tactic that gets old after about the second time it's used.
DR x/magic is a supernatural ability. Dropping such a creature into an anti-magic field would negate its DR.
DR x/- cannot by overcome by anything. A weapon with +1 (or more) magical enhancement bypasses DR x/magic.
Not quite true. Fighters get access to Greater Penetrating Strike at level 16 which allows them to overcome a DR of up to 5/-
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
I think I know the answer, but what about an Iron Golem? He can't sunder any magic weapon, even a +1 longsword, since he only has DR 15/adamantine?
DR x/- cannot by overcome by anything. A weapon with +1 (or more) magical enhancement bypasses DR x/magic.
DR x/- can be overcome by energy (magical or not), spells or spell like abilities.
"Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction."
Zurai wrote:
+4 weapons count as adamantine for DR purposes (NOT for sundering, etc).
I think I know the answer, but what about an Iron Golem? He can't sunder any magic weapon, even a +1 longsword, since he only has DR 15/adamantine?
No, Iron Golems can sunder things. What the original quote was saying was that if you're swinging a +4 weapon it doesn't sunder things like an adamantine weapon, it only overcomes DR as an adamantine weapon.