I will say it again: The issue is that the duskblade can do that damage at the drop of a hat. He doesn't have to set up a charge or flank, he doesn't have to penalize his attack roll with Power Attack, he isn't penalized in any other way either (other than the use of spell slots), he isn't limited on target selection (other than the target must be living), etc.As can the PF paladin, except his bonuses multiply on crit as well and double against certain (very very common) monsters.
So if your complaint is that, optimized correctly, in a tactical situation where he can reach 4+ enemies and the board is arranged perfectly, with the right buffs and non-core feat selection, a few times a day, at 13th level and beyond, the Duskblade is at best marginally better at killing minion/mook monsters than, say, a Sorcerer using fireball or a raging barbarian using Whirlwind Attack.
Cry me a river.
I'm not exactly sure that putting yourself in a position where 4+ enemies could potentially full attack you is what I would call a tactical decision, suicidal maybe.
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I'm not exactly sure that putting yourself in a position where 4+ enemies could potentially full attack you is what I would call a tactical decision, suicidal maybe.
And therein lies the cost of the duskblade's benefits.
Come on, really? You don't think having to be within arm's reach of four opponents is as bad as taking a -3 on your attack or having to set-up a flank?
I'm not exactly sure that putting yourself in a position where 4+ enemies could potentially full attack you is what I would call a tactical decision, suicidal maybe.
This is what I have noticed about the duskblade in play - IF they can close to attack and IF they can take their foe down in one strike (or have a backup close to) then they win. If they get caught out, they bleed as much as anyone ... This is where the Psychic Warrior wins as a gish-build: with the self buffing, they can make themselves tough enough to withstand the attacks and dish back less damage than the duskblade, but with more staying power. Because the duration of the buffs, they can last minutes rather than rounds.
Converting the Duskblade to Pathfinder is easy. Making a custom fighter/caster for Pathfinder is less so.
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Converting the Duskblade to Pathfinder is easy. Making a custom fighter/caster for Pathfinder is less so.
I do agree. I'd rather see Pathfinder's class be a little less squishy and a little less blasty (not that the duskblade was ever usually blasty in-use, just that the class has those spells on its list for some reason). I'd rather see a few more self-buffs and a little less in the way of damage output.
Either way, I still love the duskblade, and hold it up as the bar I'd like to see Pathfinder surpass, but I'll be the first to agree it isn't perfect, and I certainly don't want to see Paizo fill this spot in their line-up by making a duskblade conversion and changing its name.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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This is where the Psychic Warrior wins as a gish-build: with the self buffing, they can make themselves tough enough to withstand the attacks and dish back less damage than the duskblade, but with more staying power. Because the duration of the buffs, they can last minutes rather than rounds.
I'd also note the power of vigour is understated. I find a fully augmented vigour is the most powerful power out there.
Every time I spent 1 PP on it, I got creamed, every time I fully manifested it, I never got hit. Once.
:P
LOL, I agree it's a good power, but when I sat down and crunched numbers, the vigor power even when fully manifested doesn't go that much further than making up the difference between the Psychic Warrior and the fighter or the barbarian in hit points. I would guess that with the PsyWar Constitution is going to be 3rd or 4th choice, simply because either Strength or Dexterity will come first (depending on how you conceive the character) and Wisdom has to be 2nd choice for manifesting. So the fighter or barbarian will usually be 3-4 hit points ahead per level anyway, on average. Of course you could make Psychic Warrior that can 'take anything' but maxing Con, taking Toughness, using vigor etc. but you'll lose out in other ways.
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Okay, I took a break from the whole gish debate to review the comments by the Editor of Pathfinder regarding the "gish" style of character.
There's the Fighter/Wizard/EK and there's the Sorcerer/DD, which were the only gish options that I believed were available. (swap in barbarian or paladin or wizard, etc)
And then there's the Bard, a class that our dear Editor brings up whenever the call for a gish base class goes out.
At first I dismissed it. I believe my exact words were an OotS reference: "Bards fight by going into dungeons and singing at people".
But hey, this is the Editor in Chief of Pathfinder, here. He's got to have some idea of what he's talking about. So I looked into it. Specifically, I looked at an 8th level half-orc bard.
Ho-ly-crap.
Light armor without spell failure? check. Solid base attack? check. Good weapon proficiencies? check. Two good saves, lots of skill points, bardic knowledge - bonus!
Grease, Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Hold Person, Silence, Slow; all nice control effects. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Haste, etc - wonderful defensive spells. Plus, no need to prepare.
Don't need to learn spells like Charm Person or Suggestion, as the Bard has those covered through other, less magical (and thus better) means.
No direct damage spells - nothing like Magic Missile or Fireball - but a gish shouldn't be casting those anyway. The lack of Greater Magic Weapon is a problem, but the cleric or wizard or whatever should already have several memorized for the other melee guys, so that's not a big deal.
A Half-Orc Melee Bard doesn't "walk into the dungeon and sing at people", he charges them with a flaming sword of fire and screams in their faces while chopping them into bits. And gets all the barmaids after. I for one am sold.
Greater Magic Weapon would be nice, though.
Okay, I took a break from the whole gish debate to review the comments by the Editor of Pathfinder regarding the "gish" style of character.
There's the Fighter/Wizard/EK and there's the Sorcerer/DD, which were the only gish options (swap in barbarian or paladin or wizard, etc) that I believed were available.
And there's the Bard, a class that our dear Editor brings up whenever the call for a gish base class goes out.
At first I dismissed it. I believe my exact words were a OotS reference: "Bards fight by going into dungeons and singing at people".
But hey, this is the Editor in Chief of Pathfinder, here. He's got to have some idea of what he's talking about. So I looked into it. Specifically, I looked at an 8th level half-orc bard.
Ho-ly-crap.
Light armor without spell failure? check. Solid base attack? check. Good weapon proficiencies? check. Two good saves, lots of skill points, bardic knowledge - bonus!
Grease, Hideous Laughter, Glitterdust, Hold Person, Silence, Slow; all nice control effects. Mirror Image, Invisibility, Haste, etc - wonderful defensive spells. Plus, no need to repair.
Don't need to learn spells like Charm Person or Suggestion, as the Bard has those covered through other, less magical (and thus better) means.
No direct damage spells - nothing like Magic Missile or Fireball - but a gish shouldn't be casting those anyway. The lack of Greater Magic Weapon is a problem, but the cleric or wizard or whatever should already have several memorized for the other melee guys, so that's not a big deal.
A Half-Orc Melee Bard doesn't "walk into the dungeon and sing at people", he charges them with a flaming sword of fire and screams in their faces while chopping them into bits. And gets all the barmaids after. I for one am sold.
Greater Magic Weapon would be nice, though.
In your list of spells the only ones that are actually in the style of the fighter mage is Haste. The rest do nothing to add to the actual fighting part of the fighter mage. They are the kind of spells a caster uses. Yes the bard has a pretty good to hit when buffed, but he still does basically just weapon damage. There are no class features to use your magic to actually fight, and there are very few spells which help you do it (pretty much haste and heroism is all there is).
I fail to see how a bard screaming or no is going to chop anyone to bits at level 8 doing 1d8+1d6+ (if your lucky) 4 damage. 12 damage a hit is pretty negligable at that level. Never mind the fact that they have to have a high dex to fill out their light armor so they arent likely to have a descent strength.
The bard still doesnt have the two things a fighting character needs, the ability to do damage and the ability to take or avoid damage.
Sure it can throw up a displacement, but, after the bard 1 starts their performance (move action at 8th level) casts haste, casts displacement, and then moves into combat thats 3 turns in. The fight will be nearly done, and he will still be doing tiny bits of damage. You have also burned 2 of 3 3rd level spells just to get ready for a single fight. The 2nd fight you are either going into the fight with very little offesne or no defence. And the 3rd you are basically an npc class in terms of combat ability.
To be fair, that could reasonably be 2d8+1d6+11. (Str 18, two-handing a +1 longsword with bard song, Arcane Strike and Vital Strike.)
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So, having just taken a really long look at the brand new, just spoiled summoner class, I have to say that I'm excited about it and I think it has everything the bard has going for it with regard to filling the decent-fighter/decent-caster role, but fills the role, much, much better.
It too has its class abilities that are a little concept-specific and don't do anything for the generic, make-up-your-own-flavour arcane warrior, but I feel like they're a little easier to stomach. Big, crazy, phantasmal beast hanging out with you all the time vs. constant singing or dancing or joke-telling or story-telling or mime-ing? I'll take the former, please!
Everyone should check this class out. It isn't the full-BAB/weak-caster we've been requesting, but it seems incredibly versatile and incredibly fun anyway, and, again, way better at filling this role than a bard.
For reference: enlarge person, expeditious retreat, mage armour, shield, bull's strength series of spells, haste, invisibility, resist energy, see invisibility, spider climb, dimension door, dispel magic, fly, greater invisibility, protection from energy, true seeing, etc. are all on the spell-list, so it's a great self-buffing class with good mobility spells, and ways to combat its opponents' defenses and ways of hiding. Not to mention, it comes with a pet that seems completely awesome in combat and its pet's incredible list of evolutions can eventually be sometimes shared with the summoner to buff.
This may not be the class I started this thread to get, but it's a serious step in the right direction, and I'm really excited to play one, anyway!
To be fair, that could reasonably be 2d8+1d6+11. (Str 18, two-handing a +1 longsword with bard song, Arcane Strike and Vital Strike.)
In which case you are extremely deficient in the taking hits or not getting hit category, as you have devoted all of your resources to offense (18 strength leaves little room for charisma let alone dex), not to mention only arcane strike has anything to do with being a bard.
Not sure where the +11 comes from though +6 from strength, +2 from arcane strike at level 8, where does the other 3 come from?
Sure it can throw up a displacement, but, after the bard 1 starts their performance (move action at 8th level) casts haste, casts displacement, and then moves into combat thats 3 turns in. The fight will be nearly done, and he will still be doing tiny bits of damage. You have also burned 2 of 3 3rd level spells just to get ready for a single fight. The 2nd fight you are either going into the fight with very little offesne or no defence. And the 3rd you are basically an npc class in terms of combat ability.
Unfortunately, this is the big problem with ALL gish builds. It doesn't matter if you are a bard, duskblade, psychic warrior or fighter/wizard/Eldritch Knight. Bottom line is, casting spells takes time. That is one of the weaknesses. Underlining it for the bard doesn't make it go away for any of the others.
Sure it can throw up a displacement, but, after the bard 1 starts their performance (move action at 8th level) casts haste, casts displacement, and then moves into combat thats 3 turns in. The fight will be nearly done, and he will still be doing tiny bits of damage. You have also burned 2 of 3 3rd level spells just to get ready for a single fight. The 2nd fight you are either going into the fight with very little offesne or no defence. And the 3rd you are basically an npc class in terms of combat ability.Unfortunately, this is the big problem with ALL gish builds. It doesn't matter if you are a bard, duskblade, psychic warrior or fighter/wizard/Eldritch Knight. Bottom line is, casting spells takes time. That is one of the weaknesses. Underlining it for the bard doesn't make it go away for any of the others.
Ofcourse not, but it makes perfect sense in refuting the idea that the bard as it exists now is a good fighter mage option. Its ok for the fighter mage to be reliant on buffs, but it should not require as much as the bard does, there should be class features that lend themselves to fighting as well.
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To be fair, that could reasonably be 2d8+1d6+11. (Str 18, two-handing a +1 longsword with bard song, Arcane Strike and Vital Strike.)In which case you are extremely deficient in the taking hits or not getting hit category, as you have devoted all of your resources to offense (18 strength leaves little room for charisma let alone dex), not to mention only arcane strike has anything to do with being a bard.
Not sure where the +11 comes from though +6 from strength, +2 from arcane strike at level 8, where does the other 3 come from?
Bard song. +2 attack and +2 damage.
I think we are using different definitions of the gish. To me, a gish is a character that can both fight in melee combat and cast arcane spells. A bard, with proper feat and spell selection, fills that role.
Of course he can't hit quite as well as the great-sword-swinging fighter - that's why he's also giving bard song, haste, and other benefits to himself and the entire party. Of course he can't take hits as well as the great-sword-swinging fighter - that's why he can cast things like mirror image on himself and glitterdust on the enemy.
The bard is a mix of rogue skillery, fighter smashing, cleric buffing, and wizard controllering. All bards come with a little of each, but the exact mix depends on lots of things. A Melee Bard is a perfectly valid gish.
That said, if you are looking for something like an Arcane-Paladin, where he's genuinely channeling arcane energies while still being able to give and take as well as a fighter or barbarian, then the Bard Gish is not going to work.
But still: Bard is a gish base class.
I see the point here - the bard is a gish, but not the same gish as the duskblade or the psychic warrior. You can hold it up as a gish, but you can't claim it as the only gish you need, and certainly not the ideal gish (if there is such a thing).
Most of the non-class based systems I am familiar with allow gish-type concepts. Of course, then you have to deal with niche stomping through other means, like social contracts.
So, if you want to play a gish, play Hero. :)
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Most of the non-class based systems I am familiar with allow gish-type concepts. Of course, then you have to deal with niche stomping through other means, like social contracts.
So, if you want to play a gish, play Hero. :)
You know, I took last Friday in the betting pool. You're late. You cost me money.
;)
In which case you are extremely deficient in the taking hits or not getting hit category, as you have devoted all of your resources to offense (18 strength leaves little room for charisma let alone dex), not to mention only arcane strike has anything to do with being a bard.
Screw Charisma, this guy hits things.
15-point buy -
Str: 15 (17)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 7
Cha: 12
You'll probably bump Str x3 (one at 4th, I'd assume; ergo 18) and either Dex or Con x2. Which of the latter two depends on whether or not your GM allows you to cast in a mithral breastplate (or just whether you want to spend the feat); either way, after a +6 Dex item, you're missing nothing in the AC department.
This isn't even the most stupidly optimized build for the concept. You could get away with 10 Cha and not miss anything in the long run, it's just nice to cast spells at 1st level. Likewise you could totally dump Int and still have enough skills to make a difference. Totally off-color for the class? Boy howdy. But hey: at least you're roleplaying that low Wisdom with the very concept. ;)
Not sure where the +11 comes from though +6 from strength, +2 from arcane strike at level 8, where does the other 3 come from?
Zurai pointed out the bard song, the other +1 is enhancement on the weapon.
No. Which seat is this character sitting in? Unless the "cool abilities" make up for its deficiencies in dealing damage and not dying, then this character is just the bard with better weapons and better spells.It can't deal the damage of a fighter and be as difficult to kill as a fighter and still have significant magic. Unless you want to make the fighter and, probably, wizard obsolete. And that is not going to happen. What limitations do you suggest?
You are delusional. Just because they get spells does not mean they get the same access to spells as any other class.
Just because they get full BaB, D10 Hit die, and Full caster level, doesn't mean a thing if the spells, supernatural abilities, and spell like abilities take the place of the weapon and armor training and other fighter abilities in power.
Part of your example Duskblade's power (Arcane Strike) comes from Complete Warrior. The point was that if we can mix and match 3.5 books to compare to PF, well, LOTS of ridiculous things can be created.
And bringing up frenzied berserker? Sheesh! I'm stating that the duskblade is more powerful than the PF core and you counter with "this other non-core class is even more overpowered," as if that makes the duskblade OK.
Agreed, we long figured out that arcane strike was supposed to be a swift action to activate. Then it was very reasonable for the power a feat could grant, but really should have made the weapon count as magical at the very least.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've been looking over Carrion Hill and What Lies in Dust and came across something interesting.
Lem: AC 20, HP 31 For +3, ref +8, Will +4 BAB +4
S: 8 D: 16 C: 13 I: 12 W: 8 Ch: 18 5th level caster,
Seltyiel: AC 16, HP 31 For: +5, Ref: +5 Will +4, BAB +3
S: 12 D: 17 C: 13 I: 15 W: 8 Ch: 10, 4th level caster.
Neither are really optimized (which is fine) but Lem's a pretty decent fighter on his own, better AC, same HP, saves average out, BAB is better, highter caster level, but fewer spells.
Starting at 7th level, Seltyiel will start to pull away, with the Eldrich Knight prestige class. But that's ok to me, since he's 'investing' at lower levels for a better return at higher.
I would just like to point out that if some of the combat potential of the summoners pet was put into the summoner, that would essentially be what I am looking for in a gish class in terms of capability. I am not saying the abilities should be similar I am just saying from the point of mixing the ability to fight and the ability to cast in a fighter mage, if that was one character instead of 2 seperate beings I would be quite pleased.
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Okay, I have taken a stab at creating a mageblade class like people have been asking for, but have run into a little hicup. Particularly at lower levels arcane casters don't get a lot of buffs on their spell list. To put in 4E terms (please no flames) they are set up to be strikers and controllers rather than defenders. Please point to some spells, particularly in the first through third levels, that you would think would fit the concept of a self buffing arcane warrior.
Fryer is a river to his people!
Okay, I have taken a stab at creating a mageblade class like people have been asking for, but have run into a little hicup. Particularly at lower levels arcane casters don't get a lot of buffs on their spell list. To put in 4E terms (please no flames) they are set up to be strikers and controllers rather than defenders. Please point to some spells, particularly in the first through third levels, that you would think would fit the concept of a self buffing arcane warrior.
1: Mage armor, Shield, True Strike, Enlarge Person, Jump, Magic Weapon
2: Resist Entergy, Protection from Arrows, Blur, Invisibility, Alter Self, Bears Endurance, Bulls Strength, Cats Grace, (Eagles Splendor, Owls Wisdom or Foxs Cunning depending on casting stat), Spider Climb3: Protection from Energy, Phantom Steed, Heroism, Rage, Displacement, Blink, Fly, HASTE, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen edge
Thats if you want pure buffs. There are obviously lots of spells that would fit the idea of a 'controller', like web, glitterdust, grease as well as some offensive spells that might make sense like vampiric touch, or some evocations, but it depends on the theme you are going for.
See that's the problem. I want to have about fifteen spells per level avalible, but there are not enough to fill the list. I have thought about going as a combo defender/blaster, but that runs contrary to what most people say they want.
(btw totally forgot about jump, protection from evil/chaos/good/law, Magic Circle against evil/chaos/good/law and false life in my previous list, my mistake)
Why not include some control and debuff spells instead of 'blast'1. Grease, Obscuring Mist, Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblment, reduce person
2. Fog cloud, Glitterdust, web, touch of idiocy, hideous laughter, hypnotic pattern, blindness/deafness, Ghoul Touch, Scare
3 Hold Person, Ray of exhaustion, Slow
Improves your list somewhat. You also have to remember that level 2 is pretty stacked with a variety of buff spells, but 1 and 3 have some spells that such a character would want to use almost all the time. Haste is like a must have for a fighter mage, and enlarge person is a must have so long as you can still fit in the room/hallway/area you are fighting in. Even if the 1st and 3rd level spells had 100 buffs, chances are the fighter mage would cast one of those two spells most of the time unless they had alot of time to buff.
I might also take a page from the summoner and the witch and move some Cleric/Druid spells over to the arcane warrior.
Be careful with that, make sure you take stock of what a cleric spell or a druid spell adds before throwing it into an arcane caster's spell list. Simple things can really add up, like adding in shield of faith and barkskin, along with mage armor, shield and and all of a sudden an unarmored arcane caster has a pretty significant AC just from spells.
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Have you folks looked at the gish class in Tome of Secrets? I think it is called Arcane Blade (or maybe Spell Blade). It is pretty much dead on for the uses armor, buffs weapon class features and unrestricted access to the sorc/wiz spell list with a bard progression.
I have a player using it in my APG playtest mini campaign. He has played from level 1 to level 3 with it so far an been very pleased. At level 3 he has some really decent spells hand picked for his concept, his weapon is always counted as a magical one (at later levels he can add numeric bonuses), and he can turn on the flaming ability several times a day as a class feature. The class is also designed for PFRPG, complete with a capstone of some sort. I will look at it again when I get home tonight and post the capstone.
That coupled with bards and the upcoming summoner makes me feel that the possibilities of making gish toons for PFRPG are decent to good.
love,
malkav
I might also take a page from the summoner and the witch and move some Cleric/Druid spells over to the arcane warrior.
I haven't looked at the new classes, but I did similar to you by looking at the cleric/druid spells to move over.
If you've read Tejon's Iron Mage build, I think he's going on the right tangent by having buffs to be optimized talents you can select from specialized schools.
I briefly talked about it here.
Have you folks looked at the gish class in Tome of Secrets? I think it is called Arcane Blade (or maybe Spell Blade). It is pretty much dead on for the uses armor, buffs weapon class features and unrestricted access to the sorc/wiz spell list with a bard progression.
I have a player using it in my APG playtest mini campaign. He has played from level 1 to level 3 with it so far an been very pleased. At level 3 he has some really decent spells hand picked for his concept, his weapon is always counted as a magical one (at later levels he can add numeric bonuses), and he can turn on the flaming ability several times a day as a class feature. The class is also designed for PFRPG, complete with a capstone of some sort. I will look at it again when I get home tonight and post the capstone.
That coupled with bards and the upcoming summoner makes me feel that the possibilities of making gish toons for PFRPG are decent to good.
love,
malkav
Keep going a little longer, theres one really huge problem with the class. The moment he gets a magic weapon (standard equipment for a fighting character no?) he loses a chunk of the class' primary ability. There is another thread where I go into detail about it "Whats Wrong with the TOS Spellblade" or something like that. But the class while a good try, falls off a cliff pretty quickly.
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Keep going a little longer, theres one really huge problem with the class. The moment he gets a magic weapon (standard equipment for a fighting character no?) he loses a chunk of the class' primary ability. There is another thread where I go into detail about it "Whats Wrong with the TOS Spellblade" or something like that. But the class while a good try, falls off a cliff pretty quickly.Have you folks looked at the gish class in Tome of Secrets? I think it is called Arcane Blade (or maybe Spell Blade). It is pretty much dead on for the uses armor, buffs weapon class features and unrestricted access to the sorc/wiz spell list with a bard progression.
I have a player using it in my APG playtest mini campaign. He has played from level 1 to level 3 with it so far an been very pleased. At level 3 he has some really decent spells hand picked for his concept, his weapon is always counted as a magical one (at later levels he can add numeric bonuses), and he can turn on the flaming ability several times a day as a class feature. The class is also designed for PFRPG, complete with a capstone of some sort. I will look at it again when I get home tonight and post the capstone.
That coupled with bards and the upcoming summoner makes me feel that the possibilities of making gish toons for PFRPG are decent to good.
love,
malkav
How does he lose a chunk of the versatility? The class explicitly states that he can add his buffs to a magical weapon as long as the total modifier is not above a certain point (I think it was level divided by 2 or maybe three, but I think it was 2). This to me would seem to make the class even better with a magical weapon.
But maybe thats not what you are talking about. If it is not please clarify.
love,
malkav
Keep going a little longer, theres one really huge problem with the class. The moment he gets a magic weapon (standard equipment for a fighting character no?) he loses a chunk of the class' primary ability. There is another thread where I go into detail about it "Whats Wrong with the TOS Spellblade" or something like that. But the class while a good try, falls off a cliff pretty quickly.
How does he lose a chunk of the versatility? The class explicitly states that he can add his buffs to a magical weapon as long as the total modifier is not above a certain point (I think it was level divided by 2 or maybe three, but I think it was 2). This to me would seem to make the class even better with a magical weapon.
But maybe thats not what you are talking about. If it is not please clarify.
love,
malkav
I didnt say he lost versatility, I said he loses a portion of it entirely.
At 6th level, a spellblade can add +3 worth of enhancements. 2 special abilities and 1 straight infusion of +1. Half his level is however +3. If he has a +1 weapon he can only add +2 worth of abilites. Thus he loses one third of his primary class feature. How many characters do you know at 6th level that are fighting focused that dont have +1 weapon? Its worse at level 9. At level 9 you can add +2 infusion and 3 special abilities (total +5), but the cap is +4. In addition, a +2 weapon is pretty standard for a level 9 fighting character. So the max you can add is +2. You are then not able to use more then HALF of the class' primary class feature. That to me is poor design. Sure its nice to be able to pick up a stick off the ground and make it awesome, but a class' features should work with standard equipment for that kind of character.
I mean for crying out loud, you lose some of the feature if you DONT have a magic weapon at some of the higher levels. Why are you giving a character features he cant actually use together?
It also has several dead levels when compared to the bard which is the closest point of comparison, and that is something paizo has specifically tried to avoid in pathfinder.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I might also take a page from the summoner and the witch and move some Cleric/Druid spells over to the arcane warrior.Be careful with that, make sure you take stock of what a cleric spell or a druid spell adds before throwing it into an arcane caster's spell list. Simple things can really add up, like adding in shield of faith and barkskin, along with mage armor, shield and and all of a sudden an unarmored arcane caster has a pretty significant AC just from spells.
It's true - in a playtest run last session, the PCs went up against a 6th level halfling stone oracle who had a chain shirt, good dex, shield and shield of faith - even without adding in extra twinkage (say, a potion of barkskin), her AC of 27 was almost unhittable for a 4th level party.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Keep going a little longer, theres one really huge problem with the class. The moment he gets a magic weapon (standard equipment for a fighting character no?) he loses a chunk of the class' primary ability. There is another thread where I go into detail about it "Whats Wrong with the TOS Spellblade" or something like that. But the class while a good try, falls off a cliff pretty quickly.
How does he lose a chunk of the versatility? The class explicitly states that he can add his buffs to a magical weapon as long as the total modifier is not above a certain point (I think it was level divided by 2 or maybe three, but I think it was 2). This to me would seem to make the class even better with a magical weapon.
But maybe thats not what you are talking about. If it is not please clarify.
love,
malkav
I didnt say he lost versatility, I said he loses a portion of it entirely.
At 6th level, a spellblade can add +3 worth of enhancements. 2 special abilities and 1 straight infusion of +1. Half his level is however +3. If he has a +1 weapon he can only add +2 worth of abilites. Thus he loses one third of his primary class feature. How many characters do you know at 6th level that are fighting focused that dont have +1 weapon? Its worse at level 9. At level 9 you can add +2 infusion and 3 special abilities (total +5), but the cap is +4. In addition, a +2 weapon is pretty standard for a level 9 fighting character. So the max you can add is +2. You are then not able to use more then HALF of the class' primary class feature. That to me is poor design. Sure its nice to be able to pick up a stick off the ground and make it awesome, but a class' features should work with standard equipment for that kind of character.
I mean for crying out loud, you lose some of the feature if you DONT have a magic weapon at some of the higher levels. Why are you giving a character features he cant actually use together?
The economy of it is that it prevents you from NEEDING to buy a magic weapon. Sure, a +1 or +2 weapon would be typical equipment at those levels if you were a typical character. However, having that class ability means you basically get 2000 or 8000 free gp to spend on other things.
The economy of it is that it prevents you from NEEDING to buy a magic weapon. Sure, a +1 or +2 weapon would be typical equipment at those levels if you were a typical character. However, having that class ability means you basically get 2000 or 8000 free gp to spend on other things.
That is true, but nothing you could buy with that money would be as beneficial to a combat class as a magic weapon. There is a reason it is standard equipment. A fighters feats and weapon training work with a magic weapon, not in place of it. So does every other fighting class' abilities. Would you consider it acceptable for a rangers favored enemy bonus to not stack with a magic bow? Or a fighters weapon training? The loss of this compatability is a big hurt for the overall potetial of the class. After all at high levels, a fighter with a +10 weapon has ALMOST ALL of the benefits this class has to offer in class abilities. There is something wrong with that.
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Okay I put together a possible spell list for my Blademage class here. Please drop by and give me your input.
Or, possibly a feat to allow this? That makes the gish-summoner an option, not a given.
There are a lot of ways of making a gish. Problem is, do you want a 'wizard who fights' or a 'fighter with spells'?
Some points I have seen raised and/or have deduced about the 'gish' that we all seem to want is:
- Flexibility: We want the option with our gish to be either a damage dealer, a self-buffer, or a battlefield controller. This can be represented by a broad spell list, but a limited spell selection such as held by sorcerers or bards (or the oft-mentioned duskblade).
- Class Abilities: We want a series of class abilities that will allow us to cast spells in adverse circumstances and blend spell-casting to combat.
- BAB and hit dice: We want at least 3/4 BAB and d8 hit dice.
- Restricted Spell Levels: The class should max out at spell level 5 or 6 - we are not out to put the wizard out of a job, after all.
- Stamina: We want the class to have the number of spells that allows it to stay on target for a long period; hence larger numbers of lower level spells per day.
I was wondering if it would be even possible to have a fighter/mage that had different schools that they focused on, but from the sounds of it there might not be enough spells at low enough levels. They would, like schools, get access to different special abilities depending on that school. However, if they don't have this option that is fine by me.
I was wondering if it would be even possible to have a fighter/mage that had different schools that they focused on, but from the sounds of it there might not be enough spells at low enough levels. They would, like schools, get access to different special abilities depending on that school. However, if they don't have this option that is fine by me.
you should check out the iron mage homebrew class, you may like it.
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I didnt say he lost versatility, I said he loses a portion of it entirely.
At 6th level, a spellblade can add +3 worth of enhancements. 2 special abilities and 1 straight infusion of +1. Half his level is however +3. If he has a +1 weapon he can only add +2 worth of abilities. Thus he loses one third of his primary class feature. How many characters do you know at 6th level that are fighting focused that dont have +1 weapon? Its worse at level 9. At level 9 you can add +2 infusion and 3 special abilities (total +5), but the cap is +4. In addition, a +2 weapon is pretty standard for a level 9 fighting character. So the max you can add is +2. You are then not able to use more then HALF of the class' primary class feature. That to me is poor design. Sure its nice to be able to pick up a stick off the ground and make it awesome, but a class' features should work with standard equipment for that kind of character.
I mean for crying out loud, you lose some of the feature if you DONT have a magic weapon at some of the higher levels. Why are you giving a character features he cant actually use together?
It also has several dead levels when...
As to the dead levels: It is a casting class. It has less dead levels than a wizard or a sorcerer.
And as to your point about the loss of versatility.
Lets look at that 6th level Spell blade again shall we?
If it has a +1 weapon sure I cannot pile on its +1 bonus and BOTH of its +1 abilities. This is a loss of nova capability but not a loss of versatility. The spellblade can choose to add both of its +1 abilities simultaneously, or add its +1 bonus and the ability of its choice. And as the class gains levels it gains more abilities and bonus to play with. This seems like versatility to me.
Not being able to apply all of the bonuses at every level is not an issue with the class, it is a balance issue. A 6th level character should not have a +4 or a +5 weapon. Heck a +3 weapon is awesome in the hands of a 6th level toon. And a 6th level spellblade can always have a +3 weapon, no matter what he is wielding. If the monster takes to the air and the spellblade needs to pull its bow? Bang slap the enchants on it. Using a back-up weapon because his got lost or needs a certain type to overcome DR? This will also be a +3 weapon. This class will ALWAYS have a magic weapon with an enchantment bonus equal to half of its level.(which is higher than the types of items that will typically be dropped in level appropriate treasure) And because he can swap the infusion from round to round, its safe to say that any weapon he wields will be thusly enchanted.
The idea of having several weapon "special abilities" available is to add versatility to the class so that they always have an weapon ability that is appropriate to the combat. The idea is not to use all of them at once.It means if I have flaming as one of my abilities, and we go up against a fire elemental that I can switch it out for another more useful weapon enchant I may know instead of just turning it off and letting that bonus go to waste. The idea is to have several abilities ideal for a variety of encounters, not to have several abilities go nova all day every day.
Lets also remember that this 6th level swordblade has 6 cantrips, 4 1st level spells, and 4 second level spells that it can cast a goodly amount of times per day. It also gets to select these spells from arguably the best spell list in the game (sorc/wiz) in its entirety as opposed to a paired down list that many "gish" classes suffer from. So this character has the freedom to be versatile with its spells as well. It could go for abjuration/enchantment and be a buffer, it could be a tricksy illusion based caster, or it could go outright blow shit up mode and focus on evocation and DD spells, or anything in between. (it is even eligible for contingency, what fighting class would not love that).
I guess in the end I don't see a class that can always have an enchanted weapon with a bonus equal to half of its character level (hell if it had improved unarmed strike it could even enchant its hands in this way), with special abilities chosen from a goodly pool, the ability to cast up to 6th level sorcerer/wizards spells (with no restriction on spell selection), and cast these spells in armor, as a class with poor versatility.
Heck if you are afraid of the core class ability being useless at high levels then be a baddass in levels 1-7 and PRC into eldritch knight and get bonus feats instead for your high level career.
TLDR version: I disagree with your assessment that this class loses a large portion of its versatility because it has restrictions in place to ensure it cannot pile on enchantments and end up with a weapon that disrupts the power balance of the game because it is too good for its level.
The summoner gets to pick one eidolon shape from a list, like the way a sorcerer gets to pick a bloodline. I'm advocating that 'weapon' be one of the options on the list of possible eidolon shapes. That way, every summoner has the option of being the standard 'pet guy' build, or a 'gish' build, depending upon his choice of eidolon shape.
I can hear one of my players yelling "Bonkai!" already...
Or, possibly a feat to allow this? That makes the gish-summoner an option, not a given.The summoner gets to pick one eidolon shape from a list, like the way a sorcerer gets to pick a bloodline. I'm advocating that 'weapon' be one of the options on the list of possible eidolon shapes. That way, every summoner has the option of being the standard 'pet guy' build, or a 'gish' build, depending upon his choice of eidolon shape.
This is an extremely cool idea, it's conceptually unique and yet sort of gels what all of us have been saying about the class.
Between this and some way to channel a spell or spell energy into a melee attack I think that it would make multiclassing/PrCing into an arcane warrior much more palatable.
I am am recalling things correctly, we have come up with.
1. Full Bab
2. Bard Spell Progression
3. D10 hit die
I am all for that.