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No, but by worshiping him you are spreading his word, you may not agree with it ,but you are spreading his faith and there for spreading evil and harming innocents by your actions.
Paladins are evangelical? They actually spread the word of their diety in your games?
I thought they were supposed to fight evil and stuff, and NPC priests were the ones who were supposed to tend the flock and baptize babies and do funerals and preach on street corners?
(NPC priests, in this case, not even including most PC Clerics, who are generally adventurers and don't do a whole hell of a lot of priestly day to day baptizing and burying and marriage counseling and whatnot.)
An entire order of Hellknights working hand in hand with the Iomedan crusaders in Mendev to repel the demonic hordes of the Worldwound, would 100% absolutely be working towards the best interests of Asmodeus (who has no desire to see Lamashtu or Dreskari take over a huge chunk of Golarion) *and* be serving the interests of good.
Somewhat oddly, they'd also, all Hell-aligned and fighting alongside the other Crusaders, probably cause all sorts of Iomedan Paladins to fall spectacularly, since they would be inadvertantly allied with 'the servants of Asmodeus.'
By sending Hellknights to fight the demons of the Worldwound, Asmodeus would cause Paladins to fall. It's like win-win, for Team Evil, which has ample reason to oppose other members of Team Evil, who are, generally, far bigger threats to the individual interests of Asmodeus, Lamashtu and Zon-Kuthon, than any member of Team Good, and hence have absolutely every reason in the world to field a team of evil-fighting holy warriors who can Smite Evil, because their worst enemies are other Evil dieties and their followers, not Good.
Applied alignment theory, not just nonsensical, but exponentially nonsensical...
No, what I am saying even if you do good deeds in the name of evil you are in fact spreading evil. As his clerics will come and preach his great word after you showed them how awesome a good he is. You set up and helped spread evil. Every thing you do spreads his word and helps spread evil i the world.
You might as well drop it as I will not move on this. You help spread evil you broke you code. If this was a PFS game I would explain this to the player and give him a chance to change gods, play a different pc or find another table.
If they acted snide and childish like last knight said he would, I would ask him to leave the table as he was being disruptive and childish and that is uncalled for.
It's very simple as a GM I saw what I think is a violation of the paladins code and called him on it. He is free to disagree and contact Josh on someone with his complaint if he likes but at my table the call would stand.
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Oh don't worry. Seeker and I do this all the time. I never seriously expect us to change anything. It provides a nice point/counterpoint for those just following along tho.Okay, so by saying 'it is right that the strong govern the weak, to protect them and maintain an orderly society' you are spreading evil?
see the bold parts. If ya help spread evil, your not good. You do not help people to evil or choatic ends, you punish those who hurt or threaten innocents. Not worship themBy worshiping and spreading the word of an evil god you break 3 of the 5 listed parts of the code.
No no, he's just saying that a Paladin must agree with and spread the word of every single part of a deity's message in order to gain power from them. Just like a Cleric. Who can be one step away from their deity. Who has to agree with every message. Because the world is black and white.
Sigh.
Heh, what's funny is I think seeker and I'd get along great at a table, just that we have difference of opinions on one or two issues.
The Paladin code is very well spelled out. Nowhere in that code does it say you cannot worship an evil god. In published materials, it says that Paladins can worship an evil god. Nothing in society play prevents players from worshiping evil gods. The player is not violating any rules except ones your making up.
Sigh
The paladins code limit you more then any other rule
*A paladin must be of lawful good alignment
*Respect legitimate authority,
*Act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),
*Help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends)
*punish those who harm or threaten innocents.see the bold parts. If ya help spread evil, your not good. You do not help people to evil or choatic ends, you punish those who hurt or threaten innocents. Not worship them
By worshiping and spreading the word of an evil god you break 3 of the 5 listed parts of the code.
Can you point me to the part of the rules that requires you to take part in holy rituals to a god, or even BE particularly religious? Of course you can't.
You've got no backing here. Just admit that you're personally against it, and stop trying to bend the rules to support you in a way they CLEARLY were never intended to.
Paladins are evangelical? They actually spread the word of their diety in your games?
Word of mouth. Paladins are known as champions of their gods. Every deed he does is then attributed to his god, in some area's that would make people more tolerant and accepting of the "Good sir roundy butt's" god as he has done sooooooooooo m,any good things, he killed those goblins, and stopped that orc invasion and, he stopped the dragon attacks.
So the evil god, gets a foot in the door and you have knowingly helped spread his evil faith by deeds alone
Heh, what's funny is I think seeker and I'd get along great at a table, just that we have difference of opinions on one or two issues.
yeah debates are like that. No one agrees on everything after all.
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Heh, what's funny is I think seeker and I'd get along great at a table, just that we have difference of opinions on one or two issues.
Actually, it makes a great deal of sense. We know which issues were have conflict over, so we make sure to avoid them at table. He and I don't agree on paladins, so we'll just be a couple clerics arguing philosophy. :) Or two completely neutral classes like fighter and rogues, just worried about bringing in the gold.
Can you point me to the part of the rules that requires you to take part in holy rituals to a god, or even BE particularly religious? Of course you can't.
I pointed to the rules, you choose to ignore it. If you knowingly spread evil, by word or deed then you broke you code. That is clearly spelled out.
Heh, what's funny is I think seeker and I'd get along great at a table, just that we have difference of opinions on one or two issues.Actually, it makes a great deal of sense. We know which issues were have conflict over, so we make sure to avoid them at table. He and I don't agree on paladins, so we'll just be a couple clerics arguing philosophy. :) Or two completely neutral classes like fighter and rogues, just worried about bringing in the gold.
It's always good for the guy who is GMing give you his run down on how he thinks they work. That way as a player you know where the line is. Although a game with two clerics always debating would be awesome really
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So the evil god, gets a foot in the door and you have knowingly helped spread his evil faith by deeds alone
Paladins don't fall because of what other people do. That's the same fallacy as 'kill this innocent child or he will kill a thousand innocent people, either way you fall'. Someone else thinking 'its okay to sacrifice to Asmodeus because that paladin kills goblins in his name' does not cause the paladin to fall. He is not responsible for the actions of others, only his own.
It's always good for the guy who is GMing give you his run down on how he thinks they work. That way as a player you know where the line is. Although a game with two clerics always debating would be awesome really
Absolutely. And if we can ever meet up at PaizoCon we can maybe try it out. :)
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Paladins are evangelical? They actually spread the word of their diety in your games?
Word of mouth. Paladins are known as champions of their gods. Every deed he does is then attributed to his god, in some area's that would make people more tolerant and accepting of the "Good sir roundy butt's" god as he has done sooooooooooo m,any good things, he killed those goblins, and stopped that orc invasion and, he stopped the dragon attacks.
So the evil god, gets a foot in the door and you have knowingly helped spread his evil faith by deeds alone
The paladin is not required to have his god pronounced above his head, or a giant holy symbol on his chest. They are Champions of Law and Good, not necessarily their Gods.
Set's post is awesome, by the way. Totally agree.
With Society game, it's best not to take a 'ban as soon as I see' attitude. If someone comes to your table with a Paladin of Asmodeus or Gorum, see how it plays out. Give them a chance. If they act Lawful and Good throughout the whole game, then just let it be. Everyone had fun, and there's no reason to throw down the GM ban. If they start trying to spread evil words or do bad things, then and ONLY then should you step in and take away the powers. Like I said, you could very well have someone who entirely respects part of the god's message but not all. Set's example of an Asmodeus worshipper that just wants to kill demons and uphold the law is *perfectly* in line with Paladin tenants, and there is nothing that says the Paladin need worship any more of Asmodeus then that bit. They are *not* clerics. Just champions of Law/Good.
Paladins are evangelical? They actually spread the word of their diety in your games?
Word of mouth. Paladins are known as champions of their gods. Every deed he does is then attributed to his god, in some area's that would make people more tolerant and accepting of the "Good sir roundy butt's" god as he has done sooooooooooo m,any good things, he killed those goblins, and stopped that orc invasion and, he stopped the dragon attacks.
So the evil god, gets a foot in the door and you have knowingly helped spread his evil faith by deeds alone
...you are so wrong. You're arguing for a heavily restrictive, house-ruled view on paladins and that's intrinsically opposed to the point of the entire thread, which is a question about wether or not a paladin needs to be within one step of his deity, and the answer is CLEARLY NO.
So what if a paladin saves a village from destruction, and one of those children is destined to grow up into some epic villain who commits genocide... well your paladin would fall immediately because he inadvertently caused evil to flourish.
oh oh oh what if he SNEEZES and that little bit of wind contributes to the formation of a hurricane that ravages an innocent village somewhere, killing dozens?
The point I'm trying to make is that you're going overboard on this. Stop making the Paladin into a problem that its not. Your opinion is cool, you're allowed to have it, but its largely irrelevant in answering the point of the thread... do paladins have to be a step away from their gods? Clearly, positively, absolutely NOT.
I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
You can however think that you're being Lawful Good by following the laws and ideals of your evil deity who you think is good because you've been raised or taught to think that way and you think you're being lawful because you obey his/her laws.
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Joana it does say that even if it does not make a lick of sense. In golarion you need a god or bad things happen when ya die{or not good things anyhow] So if a paladin has a god why would he not serve them? It makes little sense you would not.
These gods have paladins
Abadar
Erastil
Iomedae
Irori
Sarenrae
Shelyn
ToragI feel like pointing out that no one is mentioning paladins of Asmodeus. In the write up for the god in the Mother of Flies module, number 29 for those kids without it, it says paladins of Asmodeus exist. Page 63-64 writes how Asmodeus pulls it off and why he has them.
Thought I'd throw that bit out to cause a bit more arguing.
I actually mentioned that in an earlier post on this thread.
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It's always good for the guy who is GMing give you his run down on how he thinks they work. That way as a player you know where the line is. Although a game with two clerics always debating would be awesome reallyHeh, what's funny is I think seeker and I'd get along great at a table, just that we have difference of opinions on one or two issues.Actually, it makes a great deal of sense. We know which issues were have conflict over, so we make sure to avoid them at table. He and I don't agree on paladins, so we'll just be a couple clerics arguing philosophy. :) Or two completely neutral classes like fighter and rogues, just worried about bringing in the gold.
Honestly I kinda wish DnD didn't tie dieties down to an alignment. I mean it does take away from storylines like say a cult of asmodeus who believe he is a good god and spread his message of law and strength, whereas another sect (the more common sect) also follow his message of law and strength but believe that that allows them to get away with much more evil behaviors. I like my theological waters in game as muddy as possible, where you follow what the god represents but it's possible to interpret it differently (as in my above example where both sides believe in law and order determined by strength, but go about it in completely different ways)
My dream would be two clerics of the same god in a party constantly arguing dogma and interpretation, both having diametrically opposed alignments, but both fiercely devoted to the same god.
Not so much as gods don't have alignments, but that gods are above alignment, granting powers to those they see fit to spread their message, for example asmodeus would empower a paladin who went around talking about how great he was even though Asmodeus knows he'd just as soon have people slaughtering puppies as long as its done in a lawful way, but the paladin is preaching law and order, and Asmodeus doesn't care that the paladin does so with his goody two shoes mentality because asmodeus is immortal and has 8000 years to turn that shining example of a lawful good city started by the paladin into a harsh dictatorhip with stratified social castes that are inescapable.
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You can however think that you're being Lawful Good by following the laws and ideals of your evil deity who you think is good because you've been raised or taught to think that way and you think you're being lawful because you obey his/her laws.
Please don't get us started on what Lawful and Good mean and if alignment is based on intent, actions, personality, or outlook. I have homework to do, I don't have time for a thousand page thread. :)
Absolutely. And if we can ever meet up at PaizoCon we can maybe try it out. :)
maybe in a few years when I am not always broke it seems. Thats way on the other side of the country after all. I don't even get to gencon and that like 3 or 4 hours drive tops.
You can however think that you're being Lawful Good by following the laws and ideals of your evil deity who you think is good because you've been raised or taught to think that way and you think you're being lawful because you obey his/her laws.Please don't get us started on what Lawful and Good mean and if alignment is based on intent, actions, or outlook. I have homework to do, I don't have time for a thousand page thread. :)
Or personality.
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maybe in a few years when I am not always broke it seems. Thats way on the other side of the country after all. I don't even get to gencon and that like 3 or 4 hours drive tops.Absolutely. And if we can ever meet up at PaizoCon we can maybe try it out. :)
heh, I'm in florida, I think that the only state further away is alaska maybe. Paizocon is actually held on my birthday, and I'd love nothing more than to go to Paizocon as my birthday gift. But for three years now it's been an expensive pipe dream.
You can however think that you're being Lawful Good by following the laws and ideals of your evil deity who you think is good because you've been raised or taught to think that way and you think you're being lawful because you obey his/her laws.Please don't get us started on what Lawful and Good mean and if alignment is based on intent, actions, or outlook. I have homework to do, I don't have time for a thousand page thread. :)
Ya everyone skipped over my post earlier that talked about ninjas or pirates with codes and deceitful samurais so I figured I'd make a shorter version :P
Whether a person is good or bad is not really controlled by a god. You are good or bad intrinsically, due to your upbringing and personal choices.
Now, consider a paladin of Asmodeus. Two sides need to be considered:
1. The paladin: he may focus on the lawful aspects of his deity (Asmodeus is foremost the god of contracts, and is evil mostly incidentally). That the paladin happens to have a good heart, fight the good fight, sponsors charities and helps little old ladies across the road is just how he happens to be, as a person.
2. The god: would a (lawful) evil god want to sponsor a paladin? If the god doesn't acknowledge the paladin and provide him with divine aid, then the discussion is mood. Fortunately, most assuredly, a deity like Asmodeus will welcome the occasional paladin in his fold - Asmodeus is sly and won't shy away from embracing as useful a pawn as a paladin; additionally he delights in taking advantage of obscure minutia in contracts, rules and regulations - "legally" sporting a few paladins is desirable for his portfolio and perfectly in tune with his actions.
Creative Director
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I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
And I think James meant he was ok with no one bringing that article up, as he said he would have killed it if he had seen it. If I am wrong he will correct me at some point most likely.
Allowing LE paladins is not good for the game, in my opinion. Allowing LG paladins to worship a LE deity is only slightly less not good.
Ok,
After following this thread for a bit, I've come to the following belief, which I think are both supported by the rules and make logical sense.
A paladin may not worship a god with an alignment diametrically opposed to his own.
An Anti-Paladin (or whatever Jason ended up calling them in the APG) may not worship a god with an alignment diametrically opposed to his own.
That basically covers most gods as having either (A) Paladins, or (B) Anti-Paladins.
Paladins would have LG, NG, LN, and NN gods.
Anti-Paladins have CE, NE, CN, and NN gods.
NN gods would possibly have both Paladins and Anti-Paladins (which would make for very loud church functions). :)
The only losers are CG and LE.
NOTE : Before someone brings up 'Asmodean Paladins', I do not run in Golarian, and if I did, I'd use a bottle of white-out on that page.
Joana it does say that even if it does not make a lick of sense. In golarion you need a god or bad things happen when ya die{or not good things anyhow]
This statement is false.
Joana it does say that even if it does not make a lick of sense. In golarion you need a god or bad things happen when ya die{or not good things anyhow]This statement is false.
Pretty sure the godless are locked away in a vault at death.
Allowing LE paladins is not good for the game, in my opinion. Allowing LG paladins to worship a LE deity is only slightly less not good.I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
And I think James meant he was ok with no one bringing that article up, as he said he would have killed it if he had seen it. If I am wrong he will correct me at some point most likely.
Ok cool, thought we were on the same page there.
Pretty sure the godless are locked away in a vault at death.Joana it does say that even if it does not make a lick of sense. In golarion you need a god or bad things happen when ya die{or not good things anyhow]This statement is false.
Nope -- only those that deny their own souls are locked away. The "I don't worship a god" go to a plane most in line with their alignment.
JJ covered this about... nine months ago I want to say on the forums. The issue was the use of the word "atheist" which in Galorian context means "someone that denies their own souls existance" not "someone that doesn't worship a god/outer being".
In fact I would use the word athiest in the search function to try and find that thread (it is probably archived by now).
Actually now that I think about it I believe you posted in that thread as well with some information about forgotten realms and why you believed having a god must be a mandatory component for most D&D games in general. I don't remember your specific arguments for it in that thread, but you did meant and discuss FR in some detail at the time too.
I recall an old thread about it,that was a fun one.
Even James has said if he had saw it, the thing would have never saw print. To me that means " we fraked up". It is not the first time a mistake has saw print.
You can agree or disagree, it does not matter , the code pretty much prevents you from worshiping an evil god.
Day one, I pray to my god...sorry you fall as you are helping to spread evil.
Good can use evil methods to achieve a good end, so why can't evil be spread by doing good? I don't have to go around killing, and murderizing to get people to worship my god. It is actually a good way to not get anyone to join my religion.
PS: I know killing and murderizing are the same thing. I just wanted to say murderize.
I do not, ya can't be LG and spread the word of evil and worship evil and stay lawful good. A good person does not spread or worship evil.
And I think James meant he was ok with no one bringing that article up, as he said he would have killed it if he had seen it. If I am wrong he will correct me at some point most likely.
Most of the time a devil's evil works in the background so a paladin of Asmodeus would not be out slaughtering villages(insert other evil act as needed). He would be out promoting Asmodeus "good name".
Can I get my smurf in cornflower blue?
Most of the time a devil's evil works in the background so a paladin of Asmodeus would not be out slaughtering villages(insert other evil act as needed). He would be out promoting Asmodeus "good name".
And that is spreading evil and helping evil to harm folks which breaks the code. But as always your free to rule it otherwise
I tell you know, the words of red moon.....
SNARF and SMURF and SNORK
the three Ss
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And that is spreading evil and helping evil to harm folks which breaks the code. But as always your free to rule it otherwise
Most of the time a devil's evil works in the background so a paladin of Asmodeus would not be out slaughtering villages(insert other evil act as needed). He would be out promoting Asmodeus "good name".
Smurf Evil and the Smurf it rode in on.
And that is spreading evil and helping evil to harm folks which breaks the code. But as always your free to rule it otherwise
Most of the time a devil's evil works in the background so a paladin of Asmodeus would not be out slaughtering villages(insert other evil act as needed). He would be out promoting Asmodeus "good name".
How so?
Look up thread, I explained it there. I am not going over it yet again. At this point you can agree or disagree it really does not matter unless we play at the same table.
On the evil end of things I (generally) agree with Seeker. Not completely -- I think Asmodeus is a rather talented deciever and could (even if the paladin knew it was Asmodeus) convince some paladins that he simply has a bad rap and he is really going for LN and deserves some help/credit... etc.
On CG I think there is a bit more leeway due to the good part. Mainly because the good alignments tend to work together easier than the evil ones can (part of being good is the lack of want to hurt each other and the ability to get along with others peacably -- at least more so than most). A CG could do NG stuff for example or allow a paladin (LG) to stick to his script while still helping out on the stuff they agree on. Basically I could see a CG god "playing nice" for the paladin since they are on the same team 1/2 the time (team good as opposed to team law and team chaos).
Basically the Paladin would worship a "bent view" of the CG god treating him more as NG instead of CG. I think this is possible with *some* LE gods as well, but I tend to play the good vs evil more than the law vs chaos (as good vs evil, even as ambigous as it is is still less so than law vs chaos).
Now regardless of it being a CG or LE god there is going to be at least some tension at times. There are tenants that are going to be difficult if not impossible for a paladin to follow regardless in this case -- I don't think this is a point of "failure" for the paladin though, since many clerics of the exact same alignment of the god (indeed clerics of the god direct) still stumble at times over these tenants and don't completely follow them.
I'm at least slightly reminded of the explanation Yoda gave for the Jedi Code. To paraphrase, "The true measure of a jedi isn't how long he goes before he breaks the code, but how he handles himself after he does so."
From pathfinder beastiary p. 56 paragraph 3: "with each evil mortal soul that finds its way to the abyss, the ranks of the demonic hordes swells - a single soul can fuel the manifestation of dozens or even hunderds of demons..."
So every time the LG paladin smites and vanguishes evil minions, he perpetuates the creation of evil demonic hordes, and commits an evil act by default - even when strictly following his code, and thus is ALWAYS fallen...so let him worship whoever he wants, in the end it really doesn't matter.
And that is spreading evil and helping evil to harm folks which breaks the code. But as always your free to rule it otherwise
Most of the time a devil's evil works in the background so a paladin of Asmodeus would not be out slaughtering villages(insert other evil act as needed). He would be out promoting Asmodeus "good name".
I'm going to chime in again since no one has apparently read the Asmodeus article besides James.
Not sure if I can get in trouble for posting this much, but I'll roll with it.
Ahem. Okay, so, the jist of playing a Paladin of Asmodeus is thus: You are being lied to. You have been taught the wrong tenants of the Asmodeus faith. You are not in a place such as Cheliax which has wide Asmodeus worship. You are somewhere like... in the middle of no where or a good territory. Some where Asmodeus worship is illegal. You come in as a LG character and begin spreading Asmodeus religion. You hold true to certain tenants of the religion and are ignorant of the others. You view yourself as a reformer, if anything. Trying to get the word straight on Asmodeus, since people aren't viewing him right.
Now, you can take this view on Asmodeus having Pally's and try to twist it for the CG deities. However until something official from Paizo is put out, it won't work. Two steps is just too severe. Go ahead and house rule away if you don't like it, but I believe you fail to grasp what the concept of a paladin truly means. It's not something as simple as a Holy Warrior. It is based on the idea of chivalry as put out in the Song of Roland and is where the gaming concept of a Paladin came from.
Now, you can take this view on Asmodeus having Pally's and try to twist it for the CG deities. However until something official from Paizo is put out, it won't work. Two steps is just too severe. Go ahead and house rule away if you don't like it, but I believe you fail to grasp what the concept of a paladin truly means.
You fail to realize that the word "worship" doesn't mean what you think it does.
Also:
It's not house ruling since nothing in the paladin write up states you have to worship a god, or that if you do that god has to be within 1 step of your alignment.
Those rules are for clerics, a completely different class and do not apply to anyone else (including paladins).
Now, you can take this view on Asmodeus having Pally's and try to twist it for the CG deities. However until something official from Paizo is put out, it won't work. Two steps is just too severe. Go ahead and house rule away if you don't like it, but I believe you fail to grasp what the concept of a paladin truly means.
You fail to realize that the word "worship" doesn't mean what you think it does.
Also:
It's not house ruling since nothing in the paladin write up states you have to worship a god, or that if you do that god has to be within 1 step of your alignment.
Those rules are for clerics, a completely different class and do not apply to anyone else (including paladins).
I'd love for you to tell share what you believe 'worship' means, since we differ on views on the word apparently. Perhaps you would rather have me use such words as revere, glorify, or venerate?
I sat down and re-read the write up for Paladin. In the descriptive text for the class it clearly makes references to deity worship, or venerate if you prefer. According to RAW though, you are correct that it does not state that deity worship is required.