Three APs I'm acquainted with so far (RotRL, CotCT, S.D), all three have members of the Vancaskerkin family (Orik, Verrik, and Saul), two of them bad apples.
Are there any more Vancaskerkins in other APs? Are they a tip of the hat to H.P Lovecraft's Carnby family who now and then either appear or get mentioned in his tales?
Well, call it easter egg or running gag or anything like that.
I don't think that there'll be any more Vancaskerkins around, though.
It's not the only case of connections between adventure paths:
A certain elven ranger/cutie from Rise of the Runelords has another appearance in Second Darkness, there is a secret connection between some of the villains in Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne, and someone from Rise of the Runelords is due to have another gig in Jade Regent if memory serves me.
Personally, I love those little hidden treasures.
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Well, call it easter egg or running gag or anything like that.
A certain elven ranger/cutie from Rise of the Runelords has another appearance in Second Darkness, there is a secret connection between some of the villains in Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Personally, I love those little hidden treasures.
As many as we can get. It really enhances game play when a beloved or iconic character (If you can predict this) shows up in another adventure. As a DM, it is built in character development, player connectivity, etc. Then again, I may be in the minority wherein I have been playing with basically the same group for the last 9 years.
Additionally, it would be nice to see Paizo slowly integrate in the characters of hard-working Paizo community folk. Llith needs a special place in one of the adventures. They could even sponsor raffles, contests and fund-raisers to have people's characters show up.
Three APs I'm acquainted with so far (RotRL, CotCT, S.D), all three have members of the Vancaskerkin family (Orik, Verrik, and Saul), two of them bad apples.
Are there any more Vancaskerkins in other APs? Are they a tip of the hat to H.P Lovecraft's Carnby family who now and then either appear or get mentioned in his tales?
The Vancaskerkins are a family of dubious repute that lives in Varisia... that's about it. They only appear in those three APs and are about as likely to show up in any of our future products as any other characters (maybe less so actually as we've already visited with them on several occasions). No real metaplot or sinister underlying plans, though. Sometimes your barber is friends with your mechanic and cousin to a guy you went to high school with. That's all that's happening here for players. For readers, it's just cool to skim through and be like "Oh, that's the brother of the dude in that one adventure and the younger son of the guy in that other. Neat."
Personally, I love those little hidden treasures.
And we're totally not fire-and-forget with our characters, so expect to see more links in the future! It's fun weaving ties like this and makes the whole world feel more connected.
Creative Director
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The Vancaskerkins were meant to be a recurring theme in all of the Varisia adventures. While the three APs aren't linked in plot, they are linked in location and having characters appear in all of them is a way to help build the feeling like they're all in similar regions.
We've actually had some authors sneak in some folks from the messageboards here and there, but as a general rule we try to squash those when we see them. It's one thing to have easter eggs within the context of the game world itself, but once you start putting in easter eggs from the real world the game starts to feel silly and goofy in my opinion. That might be fine for some folks's take on Golarion, but I prefer to treat the world seriously in that regard.
There was an adventure in Dungeon once that was purportedly set in Impiltur in the Forgotten Realms, but was actually one long running parody of the Batman mythos, but it was so obtuse in its presentation that unless you were a Batman geek, you probably wouldn't get it . . . but once you did, you couldn't take the adventure seriously at all.
I'm sure the adventure, on its own, as fine, as Paizo didn't publish junk, and when I first started reading the adventure, I didn't put two and two together, but once I did, it ruined the entire adventure for me.
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There was an adventure in Dungeon once that was purportedly set in Impiltur in the Forgotten Realms, but was actually one long running parody of the Batman mythos, but it was so obtuse in its presentation that unless you were a Batman geek, you probably wouldn't get it . . . but once you did, you couldn't take the adventure seriously at all.
I'm sure the adventure, on its own, as fine, as Paizo didn't publish junk, and when I first started reading the adventure, I didn't put two and two together, but once I did, it ruined the entire adventure for me.
]
Don't suppose you remember what issue that was or the name of the adventure?
Don't suppose you remember what issue that was or the name of the adventure?
Man Forever, Dungeon #137
No offence, but even the title is painful once you get the joke.
Oh my godDon't suppose you remember what issue that was or the name of the adventure?Man Forever, Dungeon #137
No offence, but even the title is painful once you get the joke.
Thanks! - Just read it. Pretty neat story - a well handled 15th level adventure. I don't know that I would have caught it all without knowing.
Question: is the author (Jason Nelson-Brown), our Superstar Jason Nelson?
Vancaskerkins have been fun - hope for more of the same (though no need for *actual* VAncaskerkins).
I love the references too. When I run Earthdawn, Planescape, or my homebrew setting, I always include events & characters (or their relatives) from previous adventures in that setting. It lets my players have a hand in building the mythos of the world.
I'm sure the adventure, on its own, as fine, as Paizo didn't publish junk, and when I first started reading the adventure, I didn't put two and two together, but once I did, it ruined the entire adventure for me.
Obviously there are examples of taking an "easter egg" too far. Actually I don't even think the term applies here. It's one thing to find an easter egg - a subtle nod that a knowledgeable reader realizes references another work and both works gain from the connection - and things like veiled parodies and in-jokes. Easter eggs within our own continuity we like, and really appreciate authors who delve into our world, pick up logical loose ends or potential connections, and use them to thread their stories more into Golarion's greater weave. The others - the kind of stuff that makes us think we need to Google every character or location name just to avoid nonsequiter references and in-jokes (even the kind only a small percentage might get but nonetheless negatively impact the intended tone of a work) - we absolutely loathe and take pains to expunge. And when they slip by and we find out about them in print, well, that's just about the surest way to piss an editor(/former potential employer) off. So yeah, we're totally on the same page with you KinghtE, and don't expect references to Firefly, the 2008 elections, Golden Girls, or Thundercats in anything we do.
At the same time, we are partial to the occasional link between Golarion and folklore, mythology, and formative genre literature of the real world. That's implicit from page one of the PF Campaign Setting - and pretty much all fantasy RPGs. For example, hydras - just like mighty Hercules fought! You don't have to go to the Bestiary, or even an RPG book, to know what the monster is, but from first mention the name conjures ideas of snakes and heads and clubs and fire, swamps and fangs and maybe even regrowing heads, all bringing along with them the cache of Greek myth and epic struggles. Then again, there's references like Thuvia, both a country in our world and a princess from the works of Edgar Rice Burroughs. The difference here between a blatant literary reference and a reference to Ducktales (or any other out of genre nonsequiter) is two fold: First, it's an unobtrusive nod, and the connection goes no farther than a homophone even if you get the link - the country is not a running Burroughs gag after all, being much more then and very different from that. Second, it exists within the same realm, the same genre, the same tradition of fantastic adventure and a reader's mindset shouldn't be jarred by the connection. Although this isn't a perfect example as it's just a namedrop, such "easter eggs" (I keep quoting this because I actually hate he term) in their most elegant use should feel as natural as finding mention of Lovecraft's Necronomicon in an August Derleth story, a nod that works on its own but draws on additional information for an entrenched reader, making a story all the richer for the truly invested and rewarding one's attention to detail.
Chuck Norris is so legendary, his name even appears in this thread!
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Creative Director
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Thanks! - Just read it. Pretty neat story - a well handled 15th level adventure. I don't know that I would have caught it all without knowing.
Question: is the author (Jason Nelson-Brown), our Superstar Jason Nelson?
Vancaskerkins have been fun - hope for more of the same (though no need for *actual* VAncaskerkins).
Yes indeed, the author for "Man Forever" is the same guy as RPG Superstar Jason Nelson. Fortunately, he's ramped back his Easter Egg fever since then.
We got a LOT of angry feedback about "Man Forever." The original version of the adventure had a LOT more Batman stuff in it, to be honest (you even went to an asylum to talk to a crazy guy with green hair at one point), and after stripping out most of the Batman jokes, from my perspective, it was pretty harmless. The fact that folks got so angry about it proved to me that easter eggs like this are NEVER good for gaming, and that's why we try hard to make sure that authors don't do it in Pathifnder. Sometimes they slip through, though, and if they're particularly bad (as was the case in "Man Forever"), that's a pretty good way to get yourself fired from our freelancer pool.
and if they're particularly bad (as was the case in "Man Forever"), that's a pretty good way to get yourself fired from our freelancer pool.
Gah! But he's still writing for you! :)
I'm glad an author who made a terrible, terrible mistake is being called out in public, though. A bit of author-shaming never hurt anyone.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Isn't easter-egg Coincidence also a possibility?
To use your Thuvia example:
Tantras - land in Fr, Herald in Valdemar.
Valdemar- Land of Heralds, name of main character in Stonecutter's story.
Sometimes a name is just a name. The closest I get to an 'in joke' is my changlings/morphs/doppleganers are often named after anagrams of generic drug manufaturers.
As to bad jokes... Sir John of the Wain from Redsteel anyone?
The Vanccaskerkin family helps draw you into the world, Sir Jon of the Wain throws you out of it painfully.
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Creative Director
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and if they're particularly bad (as was the case in "Man Forever"), that's a pretty good way to get yourself fired from our freelancer pool.Gah! But he's still writing for you! :)
I'm glad an author who made a terrible, terrible mistake is being called out in public, though. A bit of author-shaming never hurt anyone.
He's still writing for us because when we asked him to cut out the easter egging he agreed to do so. Jason's a GREAT designer with a really solid grasp on the rules and a very creative mind. That alone got him a bit of grace with the easter egg stuff, of course. And the fact that he agreed readily to stop the easter eggs when we asked in a graceful and understanding manner also earned him points.
It's when authors keep doing it when we ask them not to that problems arise. That goes for ANYthing, not just Easter Eggs.
And honestly... easter eggs are nothing compared to some of the mistakes our other authors have made. I'm not going to call them out, though. They know who they are and, hopefully, what they did.
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Creative Director
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Isn't easter-egg Coincidence also a possibility?
To use your Thuvia example:
Tantras - land in Fr, Herald in Valdemar.
Valdemar- Land of Heralds, name of main character in Stonecutter's story.
Sometimes a name is just a name. The closest I get to an 'in joke' is my changlings/morphs/doppleganers are often named after anagrams of generic drug manufaturers.
As to bad jokes... Sir John of the Wain from Redsteel anyone?
The Vanccaskerkin family helps draw you into the world, Sir Jon of the Wain throws you out of it painfully.
Certainly sometimes easter eggs are coincidence. Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up and I still don't know what your "easter egg" about it is talking about. :P
Where's Sir Jon of the Wain showing up? Do I have to lash out at another of our authors?
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Creative Director
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ONE MORE THING:
I'm not kidding about our hatred of authors trying to sneak easter eggs by us. I know that sometimes when I mention things here that causes a weird ripple effect with writers trying to prove me wrong by forming things like flumph support groups or save the dwarves campaigns.
I'm not at all interested in seeing a "Stump the editor" movement starting in which freelancers try to sneak easter eggs by us into print. Anyone who does that intentionally will be blacklisted—aka they won't write for Paizo again. So don't do it.
ONE MORE THING:
I'm not kidding about our hatred of authors trying to sneak easter eggs by us. I know that sometimes when I mention things here that causes a weird ripple effect with writers trying to prove me wrong by forming things like flumph support groups or save the dwarves campaigns.
I'm not at all interested in seeing a "Stump the editor" movement starting in which freelancers try to sneak easter eggs by us into print. Anyone who does that intentionally will be blacklisted—aka they won't write for Paizo again. So don't do it.
Please remember to send this email to the RPGSuperstar entrants this year... :)
Does this include all things duck and duck billed - bummer I'm out.... :-)
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Creative Director
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ONE MORE THING:
I'm not kidding about our hatred of authors trying to sneak easter eggs by us. I know that sometimes when I mention things here that causes a weird ripple effect with writers trying to prove me wrong by forming things like flumph support groups or save the dwarves campaigns.
I'm not at all interested in seeing a "Stump the editor" movement starting in which freelancers try to sneak easter eggs by us into print. Anyone who does that intentionally will be blacklisted—aka they won't write for Paizo again. So don't do it.
Please remember to send this email to the RPGSuperstar entrants this year... :)
Or maybe not, since that gives us another way to weed out non-superstars! Mwa ha ha. (And since an existing RPG superstar DID make it to the final rounds even with this legacy, I'm not sure it's necessary... part of being an RPG superstar should be "knowing what's silly and what is not.")
Certainly sometimes easter eggs are coincidence. Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up and I still don't know what your "easter egg" about it is talking about. :P
Where's Sir Jon of the Wain showing up? Do I have to lash out at another of our authors?
THe Heralds of Valdemar is a major, long-running fantasy novel series by Mercedes Lackey, and I'm honestly surprised you're not at least familiar with the name.
Duke John of the Wain hails from back in the good old TSR days, in the Savage Baronies/Red Steel region of Mystara (the D&D Known World).
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Creative Director
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Certainly sometimes easter eggs are coincidence. Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up and I still don't know what your "easter egg" about it is talking about. :P
Where's Sir Jon of the Wain showing up? Do I have to lash out at another of our authors?
THe Heralds of Valdemar is a major, long-running fantasy novel series by Mercedes Lackey, and I'm honestly surprised you're not at least familiar with the name.
Duke John of the Wain hails from back in the good old TSR days, in the Savage Baronies/Red Steel region of Mystara (the D&D Known World).
I'm not surprised at all that I am not familiar with the name. I vastly prefer horror when it comes to reading material, or fantasy from the pulp era. My contemporary reading of fantasy is pretty limited to George R. R. Martin, Raymond Feist, and David Eddings—or authors who are known more for horror who sometimes turn to the fantasy genre like Stephen King or Ramsey Campbell or Clive Barker. Going back a ways, I'm familiar with Moorcock and Tolkein, but it's back in the range of writers from Lord Dunsany to Robert E Howard to Fritz Leiber that the main dose of my fantasy genre kicks in.
And it's good to hear that John of the Wain isn't a Paizo creation. Gross. (Honestly, there was a LOT of that type of stuff in D&D around the Red Steel days, and I was NOT a fan of it.)
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And when they slip by and we find out about them in print, well, that's just about the surest way to piss an editor(/former potential employer) off. So yeah, we're totally on the same page with you KinghtE, and don't expect references to Firefly, the 2008 elections, Golden Girls, or Thundercats in anything we do.
<tears up manuscript for "Rakshasas in SPAAAAAAACE!!!!!"
"Damn you, Schneider!"
"Damn youuuuuu!!!"
and if they're particularly bad (as was the case in "Man Forever"), that's a pretty good way to get yourself fired from our freelancer pool.Gah! But he's still writing for you! :)
I'm glad an author who made a terrible, terrible mistake is being called out in public, though. A bit of author-shaming never hurt anyone.
He's still writing for us because when we asked him to cut out the easter egging he agreed to do so. Jason's a GREAT designer with a really solid grasp on the rules and a very creative mind. That alone got him a bit of grace with the easter egg stuff, of course. And the fact that he agreed readily to stop the easter eggs when we asked in a graceful and understanding manner also earned him points.
It's when authors keep doing it when we ask them not to that problems arise. That goes for ANYthing, not just Easter Eggs.
And honestly... easter eggs are nothing compared to some of the mistakes our other authors have made. I'm not going to call them out, though. They know who they are and, hopefully, what they did.
Feel a bit uncomfortable reading that. Not sure Jason Nelson deserves being called out - the name is on the adventure after all. Gong through the 'chastisement' process with us isn't what it's about, is it? Mind you, maybe I'm a bleeding heart and it doesn't matter.
But presumably, from your tone, you knew about the link in the adventure before printing. Which makes it less of an issue. I suppose its all about the intent of the designer. And I'm not going to ask what Jason's intent was. None of our business.
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Feel a bit uncomfortable reading that. Not sure Jason Nelson deserves being called out - the name is on the adventure after all. Gong through the 'chastisement' process with us isn't what it's about, is it? Mind you, maybe I'm a bleeding heart and it doesn't matter.
Oh, I don't know. owned up to writing parts of WG7, and he's managed to avoid being tarred and feathered, so far.
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up
Did not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Did not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up
Notice please that James has ValdeRmar ... all the other references used drop the R :)
Did not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up
If you don't know it it's new to you. I remember being very pleased with the name "Larsa" which I came up with in my early teens and used it numerous places in my early writing. At least, until I discovered some cagey Sumerians stole it back in the 2,000 BCs. But pretty much living proof of that infinite time, monkeys, type writers, Shakespeare, yada yada saying.
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And when they slip by and we find out about them in print, well, that's just about the surest way to piss an editor(/former potential employer) off. So yeah, we're totally on the same page with you KinghtE, and don't expect references to Firefly, the 2008 elections, Golden Girls, or Thundercats in anything we do.<tears up manuscript for "Rakshasas in SPAAAAAAACE!!!!!"
"Damn you, Schneider!"
"Damn youuuuuu!!!"
Yeah, dissing Thundercats is *soooo* wrong...
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Creative Director
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Did not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up
Yeah... turns out when you only have 26 letters, eventually over the course of centuries you end up duplicating names. :P
Yeah... turns out when you only have 26 letters, eventually over the course of centuries you end up duplicating names. :PDid not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up
Which is why us forward-thinking Scandinavians have 29 ;p (except for the Icelanders who's got 31).
And Spanish is written with 28 letters.And let's not even get started on the one-glyph-per-word alphabets - that's just impractical if you don't grow up with it.
Which is why us forward-thinking Scandinavians have 29 ;p (except for the Icelanders who's got 31).
And Spanish is written with 28 letters.
And let's not even get started on the one-glyph-per-word alphabets - that's just impractical if you don't grow up with it.
Yeah, I think most asian countires have you beat. Japan has 1,945 kanji characters that must be mastered to be fluent enough to read a newspaper. On top of that they have multiple alphabets that can be used in the same written sentence because it is easier to express some words in one alphabet than in others.
What really gets weird is when you get glyphs that have multiple meanings depending on how it is used in a sentence.
If you don't know it it's new to you. I remember being very pleased with the name "Larsa" which I came up with in my early teens and used it numerous places in my early writing. At least, until I discovered some cagey Sumerians stole it back in the 2,000 BCs. But pretty much living proof of that infinite time, monkeys, type writers, Shakespeare, yada yada saying.Did not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made up
My point was that a common name is not an Easter Egg if it's a common name. I.e. not every Luke is a Skywalker rip-off, because Luke is a common name.
Of course, you can go with alternate spellings or slight variations, like using Valdermar instead of Valdemar/Waldemar, or Eddard instead of Eduard, Sammwell instead of Samuel - which is kinda cool, actually.
And, by the way: Who's feeding the monkeys right now?
Yeah... turns out when you only have 26 letters, eventually over the course of centuries you end up duplicating names. :PDid not. It has existed for a long, long time, in our real world. The Danes and Swedes had kings whose names were Valdemar. :P
Valdermar, for example, is a name I made upWhich is why us forward-thinking Scandinavians have 29 ;p (except for the Icelanders who's got 31).
And Spanish is written with 28 letters.
And let's not even get started on the one-glyph-per-word alphabets - that's just impractical if you don't grow up with it.
Well, if you count äöüß, we have 30 as well. There's a lot of normal letters with some mutations, like aäáàâ etc..
Well, if you count äöüß, we have 30 as well. There's a lot of normal letters with some mutations, like aäáàâ etc..
Yeeeeeeah. :P You suggest thist to our art directors who would then need to find fonts with those glyphs (hard enough to find ones with dashes and ellipses), our editors who then have to distinguish between names like "Rhoatgast" and "Rhoatgäst", and - heck - us, who would need to track down those bloody squiggles every time we need to spell a name via keyboard combinations and drop down menus. I understand the uses in the language such symbols originate from, but in our stuff it largely just gums up the works without a significant gain or feels like a ham handed attempt to be more "FaaaaNtAsY!". It's also why you don't see ANY (or very, very, very, very few) names with apostrophes or dashes in Golarion: they don't add much of anything, just confuss things on the editorial and design side, and - really - are pretty played out in RPGs.
Yeeeeeeah. :P You suggest thist to our art directors
I don't. I merely mention that we have those.
our editors who then have to distinguish between names like "Rhoatgast" and "Rhoatgäst"
No problem! The one is proncounced Rhoatgast, the other Rhoatgäst!
us, who would need to track down those bloody squiggles every time we need to spell a name via keyboard combinations and drop down menus.
Nöt my pröblèm thät yöür kéyböärd ís ìnfêríör! ;-P
I understand the uses in the language such symbols originate from, but in our stuff it largely just gums up the works without a significant gain or feels like a ham handed attempt to be more "FaaaaNtAsY!".
Again, I was not suggesting you use them, merely pointing out that they're there. Like Kajehase said: The more letters you have at your disposal, the less likely repetitions become.
It's also why you don't see ANY (or very, very, very, very few) names with apostrophes or dashes in Golarion: they don't add much of anything, just confuss things on the editorial and design side, and - really - are pretty played out in RPGs.
Zon Kuthon approves this, as does his tormeted former self Dou Bral ;P
Well, if you count äöüß, we have 30 as well. There's a lot of normal letters with some mutations, like aäáàâ etc..Yeeeeeeah. :P You suggest thist to our art directors who would then need to find fonts with those glyphs (hard enough to find ones with dashes and ellipses), our editors who then have to distinguish between names like "Rhoatgast" and "Rhoatgäst", and - heck - us, who would need to track down those bloody squiggles every time we need to spell a name via keyboard combinations and drop down menus. I understand the uses in the language such symbols originate from, but in our stuff it largely just gums up the works without a significant gain or feels like a ham handed attempt to be more "FaaaaNtAsY!". It's also why you don't see ANY (or very, very, very, very few) names with apostrophes or dashes in Golarion: they don't add much of anything, just confuss things on the editorial and design side, and - really - are pretty played out in RPGs.
As a typesetter who often had to type things in languages he did not understand, I can tell you that a character map is your best friend in those situations... no one can remember all the ASCII codes!
Sean Mahoney
no one can remember all the ASCII codes!
I laugh at your puny ASCII! HAH! We'll talk again if you have memorised the unicode table.
SURPRISE TEST: WHAT'S 1E9E?
no one can remember all the ASCII codes!I laugh at your puny ASCII! HAH! We'll talk again if you have memorised the unicode table.
SURPRISE TEST: WHAT'S 1E9E?
Easy.
about 0.23 seconds for that.
