When I read reviews of the bestiary people were raving over how the monsters have been improved and "fixed". I bought the pdf and have been looking through it, but I don't see a lot of differences between the 3.5 monsters and these ones. Can someone point out some examples of where some significant changes or improvements have been made because I'm not seeing them.
When I read reviews of the bestiary people were raving over how the monsters have been improved and "fixed". I bought the pdf and have been looking through it, but I don't see a lot of differences between the 3.5 monsters and these ones. Can someone point out some examples of where some significant changes or improvements have been made because I'm not seeing them.
Lots of little things, off the top of my head a FEW:
Lantern Archon, Pit fiend, all the Dragons, Ogre Mage,There are lots and lots of others, those were just off the top of my head.
Also templates seem easier and make more sense.
A few more: Zombies have cool varients, Skeletons also.
I looked at the pit fiend- sure it has the power that lets it turn dretches into more powerful devils- that's kind of cool, except that it takes a minute, so the pit fiend will likely do it before a fight, and the PCs probably wouldn't even notice he used it. But otherwise there aren't many changes. It still doesn't have the hp to hold up in a fight against a 20th level party for more than a couple of rounds. It's regeneration 5 isn't going to help it out much, regeneration 20 or 30 would be useful (of course as a dm I'd up its regeneration, but you'd think as a designer you would look at details like that).
When I read reviews of the bestiary people were raving over how the monsters have been improved and "fixed". I bought the pdf and have been looking through it, but I don't see a lot of differences between the 3.5 monsters and these ones. Can someone point out some examples of where some significant changes or improvements have been made because I'm not seeing them.Lots of little things, off the top of my head a FEW:
Lantern Archon, Pit fiend, all the Dragons, Ogre Mage,There are lots and lots of others, those were just off the top of my head.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Scaling of the difficulty of petrification monsters, from cockatrice to basilisk to gorgon to medusa.
Also, rust monster not being quite so instantly hard to deal with, and nice use of the new broken condition.
Undead having better chances to hit (medium BAB) without having an insane amount of HD.
Variant monsters in general are cool - I particularly like the Iron Cobra variants.
From an organizational standpoint, I'm a huge fan of having the most common monster abilities not be repeated ad nausium on every monster, and just detailed in the end. I can't tell you how sick I got of reading the same swallow whole text in the 3.5 monster books!
I do like the changes to the cockatrice, but the "scaling difficulty" you talk about was in the 3.5 MM. The CRs of the monsters in this book are the same and the stats are basically the same as well (other than the cockatrice).
Scaling of the difficulty of petrification monsters, from cockatrice to basilisk to gorgon to medusa.
Also, rust monster not being quite so instantly hard to deal with, and nice use of the new broken condition.
Undead having better chances to hit (medium BAB) without having an insane amount of HD.
Variant monsters in general are cool - I particularly like the Iron Cobra variants.
From an organizational standpoint, I'm a huge fan of having the most common monster abilities not be repeated ad nausium on every monster, and just detailed in the end. I can't tell you how sick I got of reading the same swallow whole text in the 3.5 monster books!
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I looked at the pit fiend- sure it has the power that lets it turn dretches into more powerful devils- that's kind of cool, except that it takes a minute, so the pit fiend will likely do it before a fight, and the PCs probably wouldn't even notice he used it. But otherwise there aren't many changes. It still doesn't have the hp to hold up in a fight against a 20th level party for more than a couple of rounds. It's regeneration 5 isn't going to help it out much, regeneration 20 or 30 would be useful (of course as a dm I'd up its regeneration, but you'd think as a designer you would look at details like that).
When I read reviews of the bestiary people were raving over how the monsters have been improved and "fixed". I bought the pdf and have been looking through it, but I don't see a lot of differences between the 3.5 monsters and these ones. Can someone point out some examples of where some significant changes or improvements have been made because I'm not seeing them.Lots of little things, off the top of my head a FEW:
Lantern Archon, Pit fiend, all the Dragons, Ogre Mage,There are lots and lots of others, those were just off the top of my head.
Well, with the Pit Fiend, the Pathfinder version now had improved vital strike for a bit more oomph when needing to make a standard attack, improved iron will for a much better change to survive save or die type spells, a poison that will actually make a high level character cringe (1d6 Con damage every round for 10 rounds - 3 conscutive saves to cure), better chance to hit with more attacks (since claws and bite are both primary attacks), and a quickened fireball 3 times per day. In addition, the Bestiary provides 3 sample powers for infernal duke pit fiends. As for hit points, the PRPG version has 350 vs. 225, which is more than a 50% increase. I'm not sure how many hp you think would be appropriate, but it seems like a substanial increase to me.
Other than those, yeah, the PRPG version of the pit fiend isn't too different than the 3.5 version.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I do like the changes to the cockatrice, but the "scaling difficulty" you talk about was in the 3.5 MM. The CRs of the monsters in this book are the same and the stats are basically the same as well (other than the cockatrice).
Scaling of the difficulty of petrification monsters, from cockatrice to basilisk to gorgon to medusa.
The new basilisk lets you cure a petrified victim by bathing it the dead basilisk's blood and the gorgon you need to fail a 2nd save to have the petrification become permanent instead of getting a save every round if you only sucumb to the breath weapon once. Only the medusa now has a 1 save and you're a statue for good effect.
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Some important changes:
- like MitB pointed out, most attacks are now primary. Makes critters more dangerous *and* removes the Multiattack feat tax (meaning that many monsters are now 2 feats ahead of 3.5 ones).
- several monsters fixed, most importantly Rakshasa and Oni Mage. IMHO bringing these two classic (and borked in 3.5) monsters up to date does more good than changes to Pit Fiends, whom you don't meet that often.
- monster type changes (Outisders at d10 hp, undead with Cha bonus etc)
- universal rules changes (regen does no longer need tracking lethal/nonlethal damage)
- Liches are no longer made of paper and glass.
I noticed that a lot of monsters have lowered saves. Or partly lowered saves (like monsters that go from Fort +13 Ref +10 Will +11 to a Ref +4 while the rest stays the same). I kinda like that since it encourages wizard to do some research on 'the weak spot'.
I think the change that I liked the most is a little bit of fluff found in the Cockatrice and Basilisk text; Ferrets and Weasels being immune to their petrification, such a minor addition but a neat little one never the less.
CRs of course have been re-jigged a little.
A couple of monster thrown in, taken out, and some have been reclassified like the Bebilith and Retriever.
The new bestiary doesn't appear as a huge overhaul but has modifications, tweaks of of course heavy fluff change to give it a slightly different feeling.
The only downside to the book is the artwork for the mephit (who look like disney rejects) and the awful awful picture of the Zombie which is a shame is it is the last creature entry in the book.
I think the change that I liked the most is a little bit of fluff found in the Cockatrice and Basilisk text; Ferrets and Weasels being immune to their petrification, such a minor addition but a neat little one never the less.
Awesome!
The ammount of hp a high level monster like a pit fiend will need to put up any kind of real fight will depend a bit on how many splat books a dm allows. If the party has access to orb spells and the like than a wizard can easily toss a maximized spell like that and do 90 damage with one shot, and that is just one spell from the party wizard. If the rest of the heroes can each muster half that damage on their turn (which a fighter or barbarian can easily do if it hits with a couple of attacks) than the creature will go down in a couple of rounds, which won't give it time to do much. 700-1000 hp would give it better staying power and might make it a pretty challenging foe for a party of high level PCs, assuming it didn't succumb to a save or die effect.
I looked at the pit fiend- sure it has the power that lets it turn dretches into more powerful devils- that's kind of cool, except that it takes a minute, so the pit fiend will likely do it before a fight, and the PCs probably wouldn't even notice he used it. But otherwise there aren't many changes. It still doesn't have the hp to hold up in a fight against a 20th level party for more than a couple of rounds. It's regeneration 5 isn't going to help it out much, regeneration 20 or 30 would be useful (of course as a dm I'd up its regeneration, but you'd think as a designer you would look at details like that).
When I read reviews of the bestiary people were raving over how the monsters have been improved and "fixed". I bought the pdf and have been looking through it, but I don't see a lot of differences between the 3.5 monsters and these ones. Can someone point out some examples of where some significant changes or improvements have been made because I'm not seeing them.Lots of little things, off the top of my head a FEW:
Lantern Archon, Pit fiend, all the Dragons, Ogre Mage,There are lots and lots of others, those were just off the top of my head.
Well, with the Pit Fiend, the Pathfinder version now had improved vital strike for a bit more oomph when needing to make a standard attack, improved iron will for a much better change to survive save or die type spells, a poison that will actually make a high level character cringe (1d6 Con damage every round for 10 rounds - 3 conscutive saves to cure), better chance to hit with more attacks (since claws and bite are both primary attacks), and a quickened fireball 3 times per day. In addition, the Bestiary provides 3 sample powers for infernal duke pit fiends. As for hit points, the PRPG version has 350 vs. 225, which is more than a 50% increase. I'm not sure how many hp you think would be appropriate, but it seems like a substanial increase to me.
Other...
As for hit points, the PRPG version (EDIT: of a pit fiend) has 350 vs. 225, which is more than a 50% increase. I'm not sure how many hp you think would be appropriate, but it seems like a substanial increase to me.
Hey, if you think a 50% increase in hit points is substantial, consider the pixie, which now has SIX TIMES the hit points! Pixies no longer seem so frail and delicate, do they?
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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As for hit points, the PRPG version (EDIT: of a pit fiend) has 350 vs. 225, which is more than a 50% increase. I'm not sure how many hp you think would be appropriate, but it seems like a substanial increase to me.Hey, if you think a 50% increase in hit points is substantial, consider the pixie, which now has SIX TIMES the hit points! Pixies no longer seem so frail and delicate, do they?
Hmmm, I sense a pixie-pit fiend crossbreed to capture the 500% hit point increase in an super powerful CR20 devil package!
Hmmm, I sense a pixie-pit fiend crossbreed to capture the 500% hit point increase in an super powerful CR20 devil package!
And you could call it Dixie!
The dragons got flavorful powers- now they have more to distinguish them beyond attributes and energy sources.
The new tarrasque is horrifying.
Let's not forget the major change to the undead type: d8 instead of d12 for hp, but with a hp bonus based on their Cha modifier.
The change that I noticed was that they reduced the number of creatures (maybe eliminated altogether?) with CR > HD (e.g. the succubus, rakshasa, treant and ogre mage have been beefed up in terms of HD, but weakened in terms of other abilities). That seems like a good overall policy to me.
Creative Director
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The ammount of hp a high level monster like a pit fiend will need to put up any kind of real fight will depend a bit on how many splat books a dm allows. If the party has access to orb spells and the like than a wizard can easily toss a maximized spell like that and do 90 damage with one shot, and that is just one spell from the party wizard.The PF Bestiary monsters are balanced against "core" parties, so no orbs or SoD spells (remember, SoD spells in PF do damage instead of slaying outright).I cannot :| hard enough.
For one, the orb spells don't have any higher a cap than core blast spells, so you're just looking at maximized Cone of Cold or something. For another, there are still tons of save-or-dies in PF core.
I wouldn't say tons at all. My ranger character got hit by a finger of death spell last Saturday, and she only went down to -2 hit points when she failed her save. Of course... she was at max hit points of 168 at the time, but still... she was only out of the battle for a round.
So it was more of a "finger of that really hurt for a few seconds, but now I'm gonna kick your butt."
On closer examination, I am noticing quite a few tweaks, but I still find a lot of problems with the CR system of the game- in that it usually isn't very reflective of what makes a suitable challenge for a full party of heroes. I've had enough experience with the system that I can balance encounters fine on my own, but I always have to beef them up.
For instance let's examine the most iconic monster in the game- the red dragon.
A young PF red dragon is a CR 10 creature, and being a dragon it would normally be encountered on it's own. The dragon has an AC 22, which can be buffed up with its shield spell, and it has 115 hp. Its breath weapon is 6d10, which will average a little over 30 damage, but if the save is made it will only be around 15 and if the heroes have taken precautions and protected vrs fire it will be much less than that. With a full round of attacks it will likely dish out pretty good damage (once the dm's made its 6 attack rolls). From what I can see, if the dragon manages to win initiative and get a jump on the heroes it might have a shot of taking one of them out (like a mage with low hp) if it focuses fully on that one character (and how fun is to be taken out in the first round of fight before you even act?). However, once the PCs get going (let's say even a party of 8th level characters) and start dishing out their own attacks, I doubt the dragon will hold up for more than 2-3 rounds (unless the dm is real good at keep it moving and out of the way of the PCs attacks).
I wouldn't say tons at all. My ranger character got hit by a finger of death spell last Saturday, and she only went down to -2 hit points when she failed her save. Of course... she was at max hit points of 168 at the time, but still... she was only out of the battle for a round.
Save or die per say is for the most part gone,
though there are still lots of spells that give you a very similar effect:
Baleful Polymorph (Save or be a snail)
Flesh to stone (Save or be a statue)
Phantasmal Killer (Save or save again or die)
Cloudkill (Be high level or save or die)
Dominate Person (Save or I'll have you kill yourself)
Feeblemind (Save or wish your wizard was dead)
Circle of Death (Actual save or die)
Trap the soul (Save or worse than death)
Imprisonment (Save or die and I hide the body too)
Weird (Save or I'll make you save again!)
Temporal Stasis (Save or die while I go broke at 5,000 a shot)
For starters...
I wouldn't say tons at all. My ranger character got hit by a finger of death spell last Saturday, and she only went down to -2 hit points when she failed her save. Of course... she was at max hit points of 168 at the time, but still... she was only out of the battle for a round.
Save or die per say is for the most part gone,
though there are still lots of spells that give you a very similar effect:
Baleful Polymorph (Save or be a snail)
Flesh to stone (Save or be a statue)
Phantasmal Killer (Save or save again or die)
Cloudkill (Be high level or save or die)
Dominate Person (Save or I'll have you kill yourself)
Feeblemind (Save or wish your wizard was dead)
Circle of Death (Actual save or die)
Trap the soul (Save or worse than death)
Imprisonment (Save or die and I hide the body too)
Weird (Save or I'll make you save again!)
Temporal Stasis (Save or die while I go broke at 5,000 a shot)For starters...
Dominate Person? As far as i remember that spell cant command anyone to do anything obviously self destructive.
Dominate Person? As far as i remember that spell cant command anyone to do anything obviously self destructive.
"Now, go into the tavern, set the bottle on the table your friends are playing poker around, and then smash it with your tankard."
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Creative Director
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So it was more of a "finger of that really hurt for a few seconds, but now I'm gonna kick your butt."
On closer examination, I am noticing quite a few tweaks, but I still find a lot of problems with the CR system of the game- in that it usually isn't very reflective of what makes a suitable challenge for a full party of heroes. I've had enough experience with the system that I can balance encounters fine on my own, but I always have to beef them up.
For instance let's examine the most iconic monster in the game- the red dragon.
A young PF red dragon is a CR 10 creature, and being a dragon it would normally be encountered on it's own. The dragon has an AC 22, which can be buffed up with its shield spell, and it has 115 hp. Its breath weapon is 6d10, which will average a little over 30 damage, but if the save is made it will only be around 15 and if the heroes have taken precautions and protected vrs fire it will be much less than that. With a full round of attacks it will likely dish out pretty good damage (once the dm's made its 6 attack rolls). From what I can see, if the dragon manages to win initiative and get a jump on the heroes it might have a shot of taking one of them out (like a mage with low hp) if it focuses fully on that one character (and how fun is to be taken out in the first round of fight before you even act?). However, once the PCs get going (let's say even a party of 8th level characters) and start dishing out their own attacks, I doubt the dragon will hold up for more than 2-3 rounds (unless the dm is real good at keep it moving and out of the way of the PCs attacks).
And there's your disconnect. A creature with a CR equal to the average party level probably SHOULDN'T last more than 2-3 rounds. That's the whole point. A CR = average party level encounter is something that should be relatively challenging but not super deadly; a standard group should be able to handle SEVERAL CR = APL encounters before having to rest. If you want your dragons to really be dangerous and scary, you need to look at using one whose CR is 3 or 4 points above the APL.
Yep, and when that CR gets to the +4 point, there better be some good teamwork, because if everyone goes into that one hog wild, you are really taking your chances!
Of course CR is really a guideline. I find some monsters are just tougher or weaker depending on the makeup of the party.
P.S.: A dominated person doesn't do anything obviously self destructive, but you can have them do something that will most certainly cause them to die.
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Creative Director
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P.S.: A dominated person doesn't do anything obviously self destructive, but you can have them do something that will most certainly cause them to die.
Such as ordering them to attack their allies. (Although this will usually give the dominated person a second save at a +2 bonus to throw off the effect.)
Mr. Jacobs, I understand your point. I'm not sure if this is true with PF or not, but with 3.5 the theory was that a single monster of the a CR equal to the party level would drain approx 20% of the party's resources- spells, hp etc... In practice I've found that it is usually far less than this- I make exceptions for certain monsters.
You are likely right, that if I put the CR 10 red dragon up against a 6th level party it would be a pretty challenging fight (likely resulting in at least one PC fatality). However, one point that isn't often addressed is that this variance grows as the heroes get more powerful- ie. you can't just say that you need to use a monster 3-4 levels higher than the PCs to make for a nasty fight- that only works within a certain level range. For example- if you put a solid CR 3 monster (say a wight) against a 1st level party it will be a nasty fight and likely result in a casualty or two, and that creature is only 2 levels above party level, a CR 5 creature (like a troll) would TPK a first level party. A 5th level party will likely need a creature of CR 8 or 9 to make for a nasty fight. A 10th level party would likely require a monster to be at least CR 15 to be a tough fight. A 15th level party won't find a fight against a CR 20 creature especially tough and would likely need a CR 23 monster to give them a real fight. A 20th level party can generally take on a CR 30 or higher creature. This of course is only based on my own years of 3.5 dming experience (having run all these levels of play).
I generally don't consider a 2-3 round fight to be much of challenge. For me and my game group a good battle should last about 5-7 rounds. Generally, I prefer to have fewer fights, but when they do see battle it's pretty intense (except for the occasional easy battle as a break), as opposed to a bunch of quick fights that are easy and about the level of the party. However 5-7 round fights don't work that well for characters under 5th level because spell casters will be tapped out of useful spells after about 3 rounds. This tends to be a problem for me when I run published adventures (I've run both Savage Tide and Second Darkness APs)- I really enjoy the stories, but I find that I need to rework a lot of the combat encounters because there are often too many that are too easy. I'd rather have less encounters that are more challenging and dynamic.
I think I would have kept the d12 and still add the Cha bonus.
Let's not forget the major change to the undead type: d8 instead of d12 for hp, but with a hp bonus based on their Cha modifier.And thats why the PF Lich Sorcerer is so awesome.
I think I would have kept the d12 and still add the Cha bonus.
Let's not forget the major change to the undead type: d8 instead of d12 for hp, but with a hp bonus based on their Cha modifier.And thats why the PF Lich Sorcerer is so awesome.
D12 does not match the BAB, if ya notice bab/HD match save dragons
D12 does not match the BAB, if ya notice bab/HD match save dragonsI think I would have kept the d12 and still add the Cha bonus.
Let's not forget the major change to the undead type: d8 instead of d12 for hp, but with a hp bonus based on their Cha modifier.And thats why the PF Lich Sorcerer is so awesome.
Yeah, that's probably the only thing I don't like about the bestiary, to be honest, the change to the half-dragon template that got rid of the hit-die boost adjustment. Don't get me wrong, I know why they did it, I just wish they'd replaced it with 'Increase hitpoints by +1 per hit die of the creature'. It would have had a similar effect, and still gotten the 'Dragons is tough *@*#'s' into the template.
Skipping save-or-dies you can't cast in combat and stuff like Blindness/Deafness that just make the fight mostly over instead of completely over, there are still a pile of spells that the pit fiend saves against or the fight is over.
LOL
There are always extremely creative uses for spells too that create no save die situations.I remember a story one of my players told me a long time ago (about 10 years ago). They were playing a D&D game (AD&D? not sure). He was playing a rogue and a reward (around 12th level) was a wish spell. The GM gave them a week to think up their wishes. So next game session, people come in and wish for things like magic armor, bonuses to stats, one guy wished for a fiercely loyal succubus cohort. :) This guy wished for the ability to create a 1 foot square metal cube that weighed as much as a mountain whenever he wanted it, anywhere within 30 feet of himself.
Needless to say, the GM looked at him long and hard, thought about it long and hard, and then nodded and granted the wish. He wrote down 'Create Metal!' on his character sheet.
Things went along well for about six months and he never used the ability. They kept going up in level, and finally one day they end up facing some giant demon (demon lord, pit fiend, something). The wizard goes belly up first round due to a bad roll, the fighter follows. Just the rogue and the cleric left. The player sighs, then runs his rogue up 25 feet from the big nasty, points to it's belly and screams 'CREATE METAL!' and tells the GM there is a 1 foot square block of metal in the things upper gastro track.
The GM stops talking and sits there, staring at the player. The three other players sit their silent for a moment, then start giggling and laughing. The GM shakes his head and picks up the counter they were using for the demon and just says 'SQUISH'.
EDIT: Didn't make it clear originally, the create a cube was a one time only thing when he made the wish.