What are children learning in school these days?


Off-Topic Discussions

151 to 200 of 362 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>

I think we are going to home school my SO's oldest granddaughter after the holidays too.

Liberty's Edge

spam nothing to see.....

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

drunken_nomad wrote:

Have you seen this TEDTalk from Ken Robinson?

Very interesting ideas presented. What should we teach these kids? Should there be a 1-to-1 ratio for children to teachers?

Thanks for bumping this Heathy; I was just looking for this thread. After buying stuff for the kids, I couldn't afford much in the way of Christmas presents for myself this year, but I've got some money from work for books.

I don't want the little one to think Santa doesn't like me so I have to get myself something. I've toyed with the idea of giving myself a lump of coal and a note that says, "You KNOW what you DID! I'll be watching you. Santa." just to make the four-year-old wonder what kind of dark side her daddy has but, instead, I bought Ken Robinson's "Out of Our Minds: Learning to Be Creative" and his "The Element." My wife wrapped them for me and I pretended to be surprised.

Great books. I'm almost done 'The Element.'

The Exchange

Tarren Dei wrote:
I've toyed with the idea of giving myself a lump of coal and a note that says, "You KNOW what you DID! I'll be watching you. Santa."

I have got to do this next year!!!!!!!!!!

Liberty's Edge

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.


The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

another example of a poor student not being corrected by a even poorer teacher that needs to be replaced.


Steven Tindall wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

another example of a poor student not being corrected by a even poorer teacher that needs to be replaced.

They may just promote yet another poor teacher to administration.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

Because Failblog never, ever, ever fudges the truth for a laugh.

The Exchange

Tarren Dei wrote:
drunken_nomad wrote:

Have you seen this TEDTalk from Ken Robinson?

Very interesting ideas presented. What should we teach these kids? Should there be a 1-to-1 ratio for children to teachers?

Thanks for bumping this Heathy; I was just looking for this thread. After buying stuff for the kids, I couldn't afford much in the way of Christmas presents for myself this year, but I've got some money from work for books.

I don't want the little one to think Santa doesn't like me so I have to get myself something. I've toyed with the idea of giving myself a lump of coal and a note that says, "You KNOW what you DID! I'll be watching you. Santa." just to make the four-year-old wonder what kind of dark side her daddy has but, instead, I bought Ken Robinson's "Out of Our Minds: Learning to Be Creative" and his "The Element." My wife wrapped them for me and I pretended to be surprised.

Great books. I'm almost done 'The Element.'

Can you give a brief overview on the books? I really want to encourage my children's creativity and not shut it down like I feel happened to me with school and parents. Does it(they) discuss how to access and 'teach' creativity to shine?


A Man In Black wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

Because Failblog never, ever, ever fudges the truth for a laugh.

I called shenanigans on this the first time I saw it.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Fake Healer wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
drunken_nomad wrote:

Have you seen this TEDTalk from Ken Robinson?

Very interesting ideas presented. What should we teach these kids? Should there be a 1-to-1 ratio for children to teachers?

Thanks for bumping this Heathy; I was just looking for this thread. After buying stuff for the kids, I couldn't afford much in the way of Christmas presents for myself this year, but I've got some money from work for books.

I don't want the little one to think Santa doesn't like me so I have to get myself something. I've toyed with the idea of giving myself a lump of coal and a note that says, "You KNOW what you DID! I'll be watching you. Santa." just to make the four-year-old wonder what kind of dark side her daddy has but, instead, I bought Ken Robinson's "Out of Our Minds: Learning to Be Creative" and his "The Element." My wife wrapped them for me and I pretended to be surprised.

Great books. I'm almost done 'The Element.'

Can you give a brief overview on the books? I really want to encourage my children's creativity and not shut it down like I feel happened to me with school and parents. Does it(they) discuss how to access and 'teach' creativity to shine?

The books discuss some elements of what makes for creativity but doesn't get into specifics about how to teach it. I'm doing a presentation for a class of teachers on it today and would be happy to send you my notes if you get in touch with me by email of facebook. Robinson's understanding of creativity fits well with the Quebec Education Program which says that all assignments should foster creativity -- this sounds kind of out there until you get what his definition of creativity is. Creativity = intelligence, imagination, and originality engaged with the real world.

The carpenter who builds your bed is being creative to a very minimal degree. The first carpenter to make a bed was more creative. A child who, for the first time, deduces that they can figure out the meaning from context instead of looking up a word in a dictionary is being creative as that was an original thought for her.

A child who, as her teacher instructs, deduces meaning from context instead of looking up words in the dictionary is being less creative as they did not actually use imagination and intelligence to solve that particular problem.

They're pretty good books, fairly easy reads. For my courses, I need to elaborate on the theory but he didn't write them as course books.

P.S., drunkennomad, thanks for that video. I'll be showing it to my students today.

Liberty's Edge

Freehold DM wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

Because Failblog never, ever, ever fudges the truth for a laugh.
I called shenanigans on this the first time I saw it.

I would have, but I've seen some similar stuff in person. My mother is a middle school teacher, so I get to hear a lot of student stupidity. One particular example comes from one of her co-workers, a sixth-grade English teacher. This teacher has been having problems with students not putting their names on their papers, as well as not using the proper heading format. To help her students out, she put up a poster in the front of the room with a sample heading on it that read:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

On the next assignment, the teacher had no less than three students (out of sixty) that wrote, as their heading:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period


The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

My mother is a middle school teacher, so I get to hear a lot of student stupidity. One particular example comes from one of her co-workers, a sixth-grade English teacher. This teacher has been having problems with students not putting their names on their papers, as well as not using the proper heading format. To help her students out, she put up a poster in the front of the room with a sample heading on it that read:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

On the next assignment, the teacher had no less than three students (out of sixty) that wrote, as their heading:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

Precious.

Liberty's Edge

The Jade wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

My mother is a middle school teacher, so I get to hear a lot of student stupidity. One particular example comes from one of her co-workers, a sixth-grade English teacher. This teacher has been having problems with students not putting their names on their papers, as well as not using the proper heading format. To help her students out, she put up a poster in the front of the room with a sample heading on it that read:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

On the next assignment, the teacher had no less than three students (out of sixty) that wrote, as their heading:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

Precious.

Believe me, that's just the tip of the stupid-berg.


Best I ever got as a High School teacher:

Test Question: "Describe the formation of the Andes Mountains in terms of plate tectonics. A labelled diagram is acceptable."

Answer: "It does it."

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Best I ever got as a High School teacher:

Test Question: "Describe the formation of the Andes Mountains in terms of plate tectonics. A labelled diagram is acceptable."

Answer: "It does it."

It puts the lotion on its skin or it subducts under the South American plate.

Silver Crusade

My partner had a great story from college. It was a history of education class, and they were reading some treatise from around the turn of the 19th century about the civic benefits of an educated populace. Specifically, it kept making reference to how "education turns citizens into better republicans."

The incompetent instructor planned an entire discussion in class about the extent to which education encourages conservative politics until my partner raised his hand and said, "If I recall correctly, the Republican political party was founded sometime around the 1850s - that couldn't possibly be what the author was talking about. I assume he means that an educated populace is better able to participate in the republic, as a form of government." "Umm. Yeah, I didn't catch that." Talk about wastes of time...


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Kirth Gersen wrote:

Best I ever got as a High School teacher:

Test Question: "Describe the formation of the Andes Mountains in terms of plate tectonics. A labelled diagram is acceptable."

Answer: "It does it."

wtf??


messy wrote:
wtf??

That was one of the better responses; a lot of his claswsmates just left it blank.


The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

Because Failblog never, ever, ever fudges the truth for a laugh.
I called shenanigans on this the first time I saw it.

I would have, but I've seen some similar stuff in person. My mother is a middle school teacher, so I get to hear a lot of student stupidity. One particular example comes from one of her co-workers, a sixth-grade English teacher. This teacher has been having problems with students not putting their names on their papers, as well as not using the proper heading format. To help her students out, she put up a poster in the front of the room with a sample heading on it that read:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

On the next assignment, the teacher had no less than three students (out of sixty) that wrote, as their heading:

Joe Schmo
Date
Ticonderoga Middle School
Class Period

I've had students, on multiple occasions, submit papers they had written for another class the previous quarter. The reason I know this is because they failed to change the heading, which still contained the number of the previous class, the name of the other instructor, and a date from a couple months prior.

And these were college students...


In my senior year, everyone in government class had to write about a piece of the constitution. I got something rediculously banal: it had to do with trade in the south seas or some crap. I was so irritated that I wrote a short story about space pirates and got my GED instead. True story. I probably hurt the poor man's head.

Silver Crusade

Loopy wrote:
In my senior year, everyone in government class had to write about a piece of the constitution. I got something rediculously banal: it had to do with trade in the south seas or some crap. I was so irritated that I wrote a short story about space pirates and got my GED instead. True story. I probably hurt the poor man's head.

This actually reminds me of two high school stories.

The first one: My senior year there was a Russian exchange student in my calculus class. Evidently, he felt extremely liberated to be in the US, such that he couldn't bring himself to do any actual work. He just wanted to go to parties, go out, etc. Apparently it was so bad that he flunked most of his courses his first semester (and he had to be pretty smart to get into the exchange program), and, per the program rules, was going to be sent back to Russia for not keeping his grades up. On his last day in the school, we were having a calculus quiz, and he answered every question with a silly picture, like a smiling dog, a sailboat, and big American flag with "I love America" written next to it, because he knew there was no point in taking the test.

The second one: My junior year of high school I had to take the state English exam. (It was a pretty big deal.) The last section was free composition in which we had to choose a title from a list and write a short essay or story with that title. One of the titles was "Keepsakes", which would have lent itself to a nice essay about a sentimental object, or something like that. I wrote about a female serial killer who seduces men, cuts off their heads, and keeps them in her freezer. I still got an A, so I guess it was a pretty well-written serial killer tale, but nobody can believe that I actually wrote that for a big exam.


Celestial Healer wrote:
The second one: My junior year of high school I had to take the state English exam. (It was a pretty big deal.) The last section was free composition in which we had to choose a title from a list and write a short essay or story with that title. One of the titles was "Keepsakes", which would have lent itself to a nice essay about a sentimental object, or something like that. I wrote about a female serial killer who seduces men, cuts off their heads, and keeps them in her freezer. I still got an A, so I guess it was a pretty well-written serial killer tale, but nobody can believe that I actually wrote that for a big exam.

Those of us who read your posts have no trouble believing it, though.


Bill Lumberg wrote:
Celestial Healer wrote:
The second one: My junior year of high school I had to take the state English exam. (It was a pretty big deal.) The last section was free composition in which we had to choose a title from a list and write a short essay or story with that title. One of the titles was "Keepsakes", which would have lent itself to a nice essay about a sentimental object, or something like that. I wrote about a female serial killer who seduces men, cuts off their heads, and keeps them in her freezer. I still got an A, so I guess it was a pretty well-written serial killer tale, but nobody can believe that I actually wrote that for a big exam.

Those of us who read your posts have no trouble believing it, though.

I concur. Yessssss.


Celestial Healer wrote:
I wrote about a female serial killer who seduces men, cuts off their heads, and keeps them in her freezer. I still got an A, so I guess it was a pretty well-written serial killer tale, but nobody can believe that I actually wrote that for a big exam.

I would have loved to have seen the face expression of the person who was assigned to read and grade your story.


Celestial Healer wrote:
The second one: My junior year of high school I had to take the state English exam. (It was a pretty big deal.) The last section was free composition in which we had to choose a title from a list and write a short essay or story with that title. One of the titles was "Keepsakes", which would have lent itself to a nice essay about a sentimental object, or something like that. I wrote about a female serial killer who seduces men, cuts off their heads, and keeps them in her freezer. I still got an A, so I guess it was a pretty well-written serial killer tale, but nobody can believe that I actually wrote that for a big exam.

Priceless. I wrote a story about burning the school down for the provincial standard exams (University entrance), including vivid descriptions of everyone I knew being burned to death in the firestorm. I can't remember the question anymore... something about a place for which you have strong sentiments about or special feelings for I think.

I like yours better.


A Man In Black wrote:
The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:

Apparently, kids still aren't learning.

This particular example was written by a high school student. He got a 95.

Because Failblog never, ever, ever fudges the truth for a laugh.

A fair comment. But I've seen stuff like this more than enough times to assert that it does indeed happen.

Silver Crusade

Garydee wrote:
Celestial Healer wrote:
I wrote about a female serial killer who seduces men, cuts off their heads, and keeps them in her freezer. I still got an A, so I guess it was a pretty well-written serial killer tale, but nobody can believe that I actually wrote that for a big exam.
I would have loved to have seen the face expression of the person who was assigned to read and grade your story.

I know that my teacher would have graded it first, and he would have expected nothing less from me. (By then he was almost a friend of the family.) A good number of them are reviewed by the state board, though, and that would have been priceless.

Liberty's Edge

Thought this might be relevant.


Well, I'm late to the party (uh, GEEK), but I found this thread very informative, thought-provoking, frustrating, and much more. I was a huge outlier as a public school student, but was fortunate enough to have had at least one good teacher every year. I now have a toddler who demands to be read to almost constantly (it's not a stretch to read eight books in a row) who currently has zero interest in television (hooray!). I work as an educator, sort of (professor of biochemistry at a state school where my teaching load seriously constrains my research time). I have been teaching or tutoring since I was in third grade, and have worked at teaching teachers (and med students). Worst of all, I am rediculously opinionated and shall now inflict my two cents on whomever has their brains attacked by this risen zombie, if only to work out my own conflicted feelings on how best to provide opportunities for my son to excel. Times have changed, and we no longer down on the farm with limited external influence and more choices other than playing outside and reading every book in the house.

I think to keep this from being a book of a post, I'll break it up into separate posts, but I do want to thank everyone who already posted, since I read all 180 of them in the past hour or so.


The Eldritch Mr. Shiny wrote:
Thought this might be relevant.

Priceless!


On the Education of Teachers:

Some of you mentioned that you had found education students to be intelligent adn witty and engaging. I sincerely hope that is the norm, as my experience was like others, where the education students represented the low end of the intellectual scale. A friend of mine who was getting her Master's in education was nearly brought to tears by how vociferously her classmates complained about an assignment to write a half-page paper. Numerous other anecdotes abound.

I think part of the problem lies in the way teachers are educated. While working as a TA in a lab class for future science teachers, I witnessed the collegiate science instructor demand that a student take off his tritium-painted watch, put ii in a can and stack books around it so everyone wouldn't "get cancer".

With such misguided instruction, low standards and unintellectual students, I wondered where teh inspirational teachers of tomorrow would arise. Sadly, I have found educational departments to be primarily concerned with politics, agendae and pedagogy (a term I have grown to loathe), rather than concerned with producing good teachers. Rarities do escape the system, but teachers are being taught "to the middle"* which probably explains why secondary students are being taught the same way.

I think serious (and painful) reofrm is necessary by the teaching profession before teaching teachers serves society again. I see it more and more serving its own members, adn that disturbs me, not just for my son, but for all (okay, most of) our children.

*I might even say toward the bottom.


On Teacher Recompense

I've seen several comments on how poorly paid teachers are. Yet I have seen numerous articles listing average teacher salaries in various states ate 45, 55 or even $60,000+. I grew up poor in a poor state, so even though the average salary is ~50k for the average person nationwide, those teacher salaries don't seem that bad. I recall when salaries for teachers were in the 16-22,000/year range.

I know there is a lot of variability in salaries. I respect that many teachers face bewildering challenges and expectations daily. But many states certainly pay (more than) a living wage. Raising taxes to pay a higher salary to teachers who are already poorly performing and undereducated themselves does not seem a good solution.

To me, a better solution seems to be merit pay... at least until one gets into how one figures out merit, which would likely be beset with politics as well. I do think the teachers' unions often have a stranglehold on local/regional politics and resist any idea which might result in bad teachers losing their jobs. They certainly seem to care more for the poor performers among their ranks than the outstanding performers (as witnessed by several here who left the profession).

Rereading this, I hope I don't seem too negative on teachers as a whole. As in any profession, the bad apples cast a longer shadow. For every good teacher I had, I could name a bad one at that same school. When I started interacting with education students, that ratio seemed more skewed towards the bad seeds, but the quieter students likely escaped my attention. I think the majority of teachers are competent, but overworked and they get tired after a while. The good teachers can find other options; the bad ones have to stay in teaching, and they should be the ones tossed.

Back to my original point, salary alone is not the problem with drawing teachers to the profession.


On Differential Teaching:

I agree whole-heartedly with this concept. Coming from a town of 300, in my elementary school, I was fortunate to have several good (even a few exceptional) teachers and a county that supported a once or twice a week visit by a "gifted" teacher. I tutored older kids in math. My fifth grade "advanced" math was a competition with two other students to see who could do the most math books (yes, you read that correctly - work every problem in the book, then get another... and we loved it!). I also got tagged for math field day, which was a once a week get of class for the afternoon to "train" - and was essentially small group interaction.

My high school had a five-tiered approach to most basic courses - special ed, remedial, average, advanced and gifted. When the board proposed cutting some of those, students protested (and parents). Most amazingly to me, even the "average" students voiced opinions to keep the gifted programs. Now, most counties are lucky to have three tracks. Unchallenged students quickly become bored and quickly grow to hate their incarceration. Students _need_ to work at an appropriate pace, or they will cease to work. I am very thankful for hte teachers who pushed me, and thankful to the administrators who made the decisions that allowed myself and others like me to be challenged and pushed forward.


On What to Do with My Son

A colleague of mine recently pulled his son from public school and enrolled him in a Christian school. He did not do this for religious reasons. His son never had homework and never brought any books home. After blaming his son for being lazy or unmotivated, his son told him that he wasn't allowed to bring home books. And it's true - his school has a policy of not allowing books off school grounds.

I am hesitant to abandon the public school system that served me admirably, but if public school is not even the third best option... Did I mention that both my colleague and I live in what is reputed to be one of the best school districts in the county?

We are fortunate to have options. My wife has discussed Montessori schools (though I worry they are not science-y enough - my own bias as a scientist who grew up with the idea that such schools are all artsy, even though I now know they are not). There are several private and religious schools in the area with excellent track records. There is even a very good boarding school not too far away. Of course, all these options mean added expenses (which hopefully in a few years won't be too much of an issue - must cure cancer).

After reading this thread, I am pleased to see so many statistics and anecdotes showing positive outcomes for homeschooled children. While I can scarcely conceive of having the time for homeschooling, I am glad to see it can be done with outstanding results.

I think my main worry is that schools/teachers will just teach to the middle. I want my son to be challenged and encouraged. I want school to be a place where he is exicted to learn and expected to learn. I do not want it to be drudgery where he is stifled. I am thankful that we have such options available, though saddened that many do not.


On Starting Every Post with "On"

Alright, I'll shut up for a bit and hope my verbose nature and late comments to a recently resurrected thread are well met and food for further discussion. Seeing people comment about WV (my original home) and NC (my current home), I am excited to know not only that others in my neck of the woods confront these issues, but also that there is a pool of gamers not terribly far away.

When I was young, D&D was the province of the outcasts only, metal-heads and ultra-geeks. I loved Gygax's vocabulary and learned many words from the PHB and DMG (mundane and dweomer, for example). While the casts of players has expanded over the decades, I am glad that many "smart" players still enjoy the game, and now debate larger topics using what has been learned from simply playing a game. :)


I guess I really was too late to the party...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

the Stick wrote:

On the Education of Teachers:

Some of you mentioned that you had found education students to be intelligent adn witty and engaging. I sincerely hope that is the norm, as my experience was like others, where the education students represented the low end of the intellectual scale. A friend of mine who was getting her Master's in education was nearly brought to tears by how vociferously her classmates complained about an assignment to write a half-page paper. Numerous other anecdotes abound.

I don't recall many other defenses of teachers than my half-hearted one. I wrote ...

Tarren Dei wrote:
[In the thirteen years I've been teaching teachers, I've found most teacher-candidates to be either (1) diligent, clever, and slightly conservative with excellent study skills (the majority); or (2) intuitively brilliant, left-leaning, and with not so excellent study skills (a minority). (The latter can be a pain but they are fun to have in class discussions.)

The majority of teachers that I've observed were good students who liked school and wanted to go back there. I don't think that makes the best teacher. I would prefer to see schools staffed by people who think that schools could be improved. I was annoyed by the complaints about workload from my students in education until I took into account the amount of time they spent observing or teaching classes as part of their practicum.

the Stick wrote:
I think part of the problem lies in the way teachers are educated. While working as a TA in a lab class for future science teachers, I witnessed the collegiate science instructor demand that a student take off his tritium-painted watch, put ii in a can and stack books around it so everyone wouldn't "get cancer".

I'm not sure how teachers are educated where you're from, the Stick, but in my experience students preparing to be high school science teachers would study science classes from the science department. The education department may have a course on science pedagogy but we would mainly be responsible for their courses on childhood development, school policy, and pedagogy.

the Stick wrote:


Sadly, I have found educational departments to be primarily concerned with politics, agendae and pedagogy (a term I have grown to loathe), rather than concerned with producing good teachers.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Politics? Most university departments are concerned with politics, particularly when dealing with other departments. 'Agendae' is kind of vague. 'Pedagogy' -- yes, that's our job.

Education departments, often becoming the scapegoats of the perennial discussion on the declining academic abilities of this year's crop of first year students in all the other departments, come into these meetings of faculty with our collective tail between our legs. (If you guys in the other departments would just admit you're not attracting better students, you might lay off us a bit.)

the Stick wrote:
I think serious (and painful) reofrm is necessary by the teaching profession before teaching teachers serves society again. I see it more and more serving its own members, adn that disturbs me, not just for my son, but for all (okay, most of) our children.

The medium being the message, reforming the teaching profession is going to be short-lived unless you re-imagine schools. You could replace every teacher in the school system with creative and intelligent people from different professions, and within a couple of years, they'd have rediscovered exactly the way we're doing it now. Transformations of schools don't start by blaming teachers; they end that way because it's easier than offering solutions.


the Stick wrote:
I guess I really was too late to the party...

Don't worry, it happens to me all the time. Can't really see much to disagree with in your posts, and you do seem to have had a much better experience than I; I often went years between good teachers.


I sure wish I had even the slightest smidgen of Tarren's experience.

For certain specializations of secondary education majors, they are required to take courses in the area of specialization (here, the math department itself provides many of the "math education" classes at the undergraduate level, and it controls the curriculum at the graduate level to avoid cases like the "Tritium teacher"). I cannot speak for those courses, though my former officemates (who taught some of those classes at the undergraduate level) claimed to have better experiences than I, with maybe a quarter to a third of their students (depending on the semester) seemingly caring, competent, and willing to put in a bit of effort (and the rest naturally half-assed at best--I'll not speak of the worst).

Education majors in the classes I taught were most certainly not specialized in math, but the level of rigor was no more than what would be expected from a junior high math course. (I'd say around "pre-Algebra" to Algebra I level, but worth freshman-level credit at a public university. Nothing more difficult than single linear equation solving was required--the rest was solved with calculators.) Unfortunately, I saw very little difference between most of the education majors and students listed as "undecided." There were a few gems over the years, but they were the exception.

Not counting the dozen or so education majors busted for cheating all at once, the most egregious case was the education Master's student in the Statistics for Experimenters I class that my wife and I were taking. She repeatedly interrupted class to ask the professor what certain symbolism (frequently used in early elementary school) meant, such as "<," ">," and the absolute value bars. (Remember the old "fishie/alligator wants to eat the bigger number" stuff?)


the Stick wrote:
I guess I really was too late to the party...

:)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Shinmizu wrote:
I sure wish I had even the slightest smidgen of Tarren's experience. <snipped for length>

Oh, you sciency types with your love of anecdotal evidence and intuitive leaps. ;-)

I've taught students from a wide variety of majors and have been impressed with some from different fields and startled at the empty-headedness of some from different fields. I'm surprised that you don't see these idiots in your classes in other fields, because I have.

That being said, it does seem hard to attract scientists and mathematicians to education and, in some cases, those with an excellent grasp of science or math have a lot of trouble with the communication skills required to manage a class while guiding them (without railroading them) towards deeper understandings of phenomena.

Still, it strikes me as a bit lazy to argue that "school is dumb because teachers are stupid." I made that argument in grade 9 and I realized it was immature even then.


Tarren Dei wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Oh, you sciency types with your love of anecdotal evidence and intuitive leaps. ;-)
In the thirteen years I've been teaching teachers, I've found *snip*

Works both ways, bub. *snikt* Ouch, that hurts.

Tarren Dei wrote:
I'm surprised that you don't see these idiots in your classes in other fields, because I have.

I never said I didn't. Reading my text, you'd see that it's a matter of proportion. Education majors (along with aviation sciences, drama, and leisure studies) tend to be weighted towards the lower end of student quality in most major aspects: diligence, punctuality, honesty, attentiveness, etc. Business was a crapshoot. DHM (Design, Housing, and Merchandising, frequently derided as "fashion majors") and HES (Human Environment Sciences [aka "home ec"]) actually tended towards the top, along with history and music majors. The rest were fairly varied over the years, as would be expected.

Quote:
Still, it strikes me as a bit lazy to argue that "school is dumb because teachers are stupid." I made that argument in grade 9 and I realized it was immature even then.

A person who is at best ignorant and indifferent to a subject, and at worst fearful and uncertain in the very subject they're teaching should not be in a teaching position. Students pick up far more than what is said aloud; teaching requires being an example.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Shinmizu wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
Shinmizu wrote:
Oh, you sciency types with your love of anecdotal evidence and intuitive leaps. ;-)
In the thirteen years I've been teaching teachers, I've found *snip*
Works both ways, bub. *snikt* Ouch, that hurts.

Yes, but I wasn't arguing teachers are not in fact dumb. My anecdotal evidence disagrees with yours, so we'll need some hard data. Anyone have admissions records to back them up? (I don't.)

Shinmizu wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
I'm surprised that you don't see these idiots in your classes in other fields, because I have.
I never said I didn't. Reading my text, you'd see that it's a matter of proportion. Education majors (along with aviation sciences, drama, and leisure studies) tend to be weighted towards the lower end of student quality in most major aspects: diligence, punctuality, honesty, attentiveness, etc. Business was a crapshoot. DHM (Design, Housing, and Merchandising, frequently derided as "fashion majors") and HES (Human Environment Sciences [aka "home ec"]) actually tended towards the top, along with history and music majors. The rest were fairly varied over the years, as would be expected.

Are aviation sciences students going to be flying planes, because this concerns me!

I've taught fashion majors and dance majors. I've been impressed with how hard they worked when you made it clear that you weren't going to underestimate them. I've only taught a few leisure studies majors and they were smart but a bit relaxed. Couldn't quite figure them out.

Shinmizu wrote:
Quote:
Still, it strikes me as a bit lazy to argue that "school is dumb because teachers are stupid." I made that argument in grade 9 and I realized it was immature even then.
A person who is at best ignorant and indifferent to a subject, and at worst fearful and uncertain in the very subject they're teaching should not be in a teaching position. Students pick up far more than what is said aloud; teaching requires being an example.

Well, most education majors won't end up in teaching positions, so perhaps that will sort itself out. The best evidence for any lack of intelligence on the part of education majors would be the challenge many of them are going to face finding jobs in neighborhoods they'd want to work after graduation.

My point is ... (cont.)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Rather than taking the easy way out and blaming teachers for the problems with schools -- which strikes me as kind of like blaming your accountant for your high taxes or your lawyer for your drug abuse conviction: it may be their fault but there are other factors to consider -- perhaps there is something about the institution of 'school' that makes it a problem.

Schools are slow to recognize that sitting in chairs for long periods of times is bad for your health and mental development. Ironically, most people would agree that sitting in front of the TV for hours and hours is bad for young people because they need to move around and be engaged.

Schools are one of the few places where one person can physically assault another and it is seldom treated as a police matter. We don't even call it assault, we call it 'bullying' and treat it as an unfortunate aspect of schools.

Schools are political footballs in an impromptu game at recess -- everyone kicks them one direction or another but no one seems to have a clear sense of where the goals are.

Schools are made responsible for students' performance even when statistical evidence demonstrate that a wide range of factors influence this performance.

Schools operate under the premise that building four walls around a child to shut the world out is the best way for them to learn about it.

Schools assume that learning can be compartmentalized in subjects, in classes, in semesters, in units, in lesson plans. They assume that learning happens between two bells and can be measured on weekly quizzes.

Schools are becoming measured by students' test scores despite the lack of evidence that these test scores demonstrate students' ability to apply knowledge in meaningful ways.

Most of us can't even imagine a school without chairs and desks and walls or imagine a school where every child retained all their legal and ethical rights. Most people, teachers included, don't find it objectionable that schools are tasked with reproducing society, but then are blamed when test scores reflect the failings of that society. Most people find it easier to say that students failed the test rather than that a test failed the students but tests fail probably more often than students do.


Tarren Dei wrote:

I don't recall many other defenses of teachers than my half-hearted one. I wrote ...

The majority of teachers that I've observed were good students who liked school and wanted to go back there. I don't think that makes the best teacher. I would prefer to see schools staffed by people who think that schools could be improved. I was annoyed by the complaints about workload from my students in education until I took into account the amount of time they spent observing or teaching classes as part of their practicum.

I am glad to hear that. I specifically noted that my observations were anecdotal, but I did not mention that this was at the flagship institution (and primary producer of teachers) for my home state (not one of the highest-achieving states, mind you). I really do hope that my experience was an outlier. Just as the OP lead off with a specific instance of something highly unusual, I wanted to share what I hoped was unusual, but what my experiences have unfortunately not found so uncommon.

Tarren Dei wrote:
I'm not sure how teachers are educated where you're from, the Stick, but in my experience students preparing to be high school science teachers would study science classes from the science department. The education department...

That is partially true in my experience. In two of the universities where I have had interaction with education faculty, there are specific science teachers that are more like liaisons between the two. That is, they usually belong to both departments, but only teach, say chemistry, and only to education students. I have no problem with this, as chemistry teachers do not need to be chemists (and as you pointed out elsewhere sometimes scientists do not make good teachers). However, some of these education courses seem to have become sexcessively watered down, with very simplistic exams to make the calss easy for the teacher... when I believe the point should be to make the class easy for the teacher to teach. SOmething is being lost in translation, which will provide a disservice to students in the future.

As for most education not ending up in teaching positions, where will they go? Administration? The Board of education? If they manage to attain their education degree, I certainly expect many, if not most, to teach... and it seems likely they will find positions at schools with the worst track records, and only perpetuate a lack of real education.

I wholeheartedly agree with you about making a change in education. Since this is already a lengthy response, I will post a fresh response to address that.


I just saw and read your previous post, an I agree whole-heartedly. Perhaps my original intent got lost in my original verbage. Teachers are not solely to blame for poor performance. In recent years, it seems like many parents have abdicated their home responsibities of educating their children to the schools. I believe there are many reasons why children's education has been increasingly shifted to schools and teachers. We do not disagree there, and that is a problem that society must recognize and deal with.

To return solely to the way in which teachers are educated (which in some specific instances I have encountered what I believe to be bad practices), I do take an active interest in changing that, to a point where occasionally I bump up against people in positions of authority who have a vested interest in not changing or in adhering to the current flavor of education (hence my politics/agendae/pedagoguey line a few posts back).

In my current position, I teach at a state school where faculty like to complain about how poorly prepared the students are. We do see many weak students, because my school serves a broad base of disadvantaged social groups who often had poor educational experience prior to college. Some faculty seem to enjoy lording their experience and power over these students. I take a different tack.

In my graduate career, I found seminars topics often seemed fascinating, but were quickly rendered dull by presenters assuming their audience was intimately familiar with their specific field. So I learned to present almost pedantically, so that nearly everyone could follow along, even past the famed 40-minute snooze mark. I do the same in my classes. Teaching a huge class taught me that there are at least three primary ways in which different students learn material in a lecture. I was amazed to see differnet sections of students nod in understanding or go cross-eyed in confusion, depending on how I presented the material. From that, I try to make sure I have a balance in the way I present. I also tend to go a little slower (in lower-level courses) than my peers, valuing comprehension and critical thought over rote memorization of vast swathes of information. If I can get students thinking, I can get them learning.

In my freshman-level pre-nursing class, I now regularly have multiple As earned (I once commented to a peer that it seemed three As was awfully few in a class of 28, when he commented that he had never had that many in one class). Even though I have trouble learning everyone's name, I do make a connection and get (most of) them working, with the knowledge they need an A or B to get accepted into the nursing program.

I have also interacted with the education department while improving my class. I had started taking advantage of online suites to assign (and grade) homework. The education department ran a week-long program to assist in using online tools to best help students. Most of the time, we worked well together, since the ultimate goal was serving students. A few times, when pedagoguey was discussed, I had to bite my lip.

Were we to use pedagoguey as the definition stood decades ago, I would be fine (and I feel that is what you meant, Tarren). Unfortunately, my recent experience has shown that pedagoguey meetings are more about embracing whatever flavor has been embraced by teachers' unions. It also seems there is an attempt to create a class that is all things to all students, when clearly students learn in different ways. Pedagoguey also (now) emphasizes teaching critical thinking, but seems _very_ fuzzy on both defining CT and coming up with CT curriculae. And again, I expect the latter, since each student is likely to learn and think in their own patterns. However, pedagoguey is also (in me experience) obsessed with coming up with measurable outcomes, often subjective, and then applying statistics and attempting to make the resulatnat numbers scientific.

Perhaps one of the ways I do get some of my students to think critically is to use real-world examples where people are faced with decisions and show how the scientific method can be applied - whether it's buying food, taking a driver's exam, or whatever. Look, we know when a person is thinking critically by when they make good decisions, and I think pedagoguey promoters sometimes lose sight of that fact.

So again, not all teachers are bad. Not all education programs are bad. But my experience has shown me there is definitiely room for improvement, and resistance to improvement, which is a pajor reason for my earlier post. IN my own way, I work to fix it, and I would like to see others do so too.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

the Stick wrote:

<snipping for length throughout>

-- I learned to present almost pedantically, so that nearly everyone could follow along, even past the famed 40-minute snooze mark.
-- Teaching a huge class taught me that there are at least three primary ways in which different students learn material in a lecture. I was amazed to see differnet sections of students nod in understanding or go cross-eyed in confusion, depending on how I presented the material. From that, I try to make sure I have a balance in the way I present.
-- I also tend to go a little slower (in lower-level courses) than my peers, valuing comprehension and critical thought over rote memorization of vast swathes of information. If I can get students thinking, I can get them learning.
-- I have also interacted with the education department while improving my class. I had started taking advantage of online suites to assign (and grade) homework. The education department ran a week-long program to assist in using online tools to best help students. Most of the time, we worked well together, since the ultimate goal was serving students.
-- Perhaps one of the ways I do get some of my students to think critically is to use real-world examples where people are faced with decisions and show how the scientific method can be applied - whether it's buying food, taking a driver's exam, or whatever.

These all sound like great ways to help your students gain a deeper level of understanding than many lectures promote. The students who enjoyed your lectures would probably make better teachers because of this experience. How many students in these lectures?

One problem that one of my teacher ed. students have pointed out to me though is that there subject specific classes are often lectures with hundreds of students. They need to be able to present the information in high school classes of 20-30 students with an expectation that the lessons involve more interaction. Do education majors get the chance to be more hands-on in any of the science classes at your institution?

The student who pointed this out to me made the comment that he could learn a variety of teaching techniques in his education classes but had difficulty applying those to his subject area because he didn't get to see science taught in that way. I told him to stop being lazy and do the intellectual work required to make the translation but I say that a lot because I'm a hardass.

Liberty's Edge

Wicht wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
I hope you're only considering this if you're qualified. Most home-schooled kids I've worked with (5 of 7) are considerably behind academically.

You must be working with the oddballs. The average homeschooled kid is ahead of the average population academically. In West Virginia, for some reason, in fact it is the law that for a kid to remain in homeschooling, they have to test higher than average.

In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.

My own kids, who have never set foot in public schools, all scored above average last year when we finally had them tested.

I admittedly haven't read the full thread, but this jumped out at me. While a homeschooled student may perform better academically, where do they stand socially? Public and private schools unofficially teach interpersonal skills, a respect for diversity, and allow kids to do what they're supposed to do: grow up. Even if a homeschooler goes out of their way to attempt to do this, the fact remains that it will be damn-near impossible to "expose" their children to 30 kids per class 5 times/day.

351 to 362 of 362 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Off-Topic Discussions / What are children learning in school these days? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.