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So your problem is solved - because I'm sure that the Paladin lost all his powers immediately once he started doing things like making truces with Vampire Warlords and handing over magic items in apology for killing a Dragon...
The PathFinde Core book and entirety of the Carrion Crown AP disagree with you.
Shield of Faith, Combat Expertise (or similar), Sorcerer casting a buff or two, (Eagles Splendor, Shield, Magic Vestment), Potions. Various Archtypes might also help.
It's also possible that they found this gear, so WBL may not be relavent so much, or particularly #% of WBL.
If he's getting a bunch of buffs from the rest of the team, then he's not solo'ing a dragon, he's the focal point of an entire group killing a dragon.
At level 5, he has no spells to cast himself.
If he's spending all his feats on defensive feats then he's not putting out much damage (especially coupled with putting all his stats into Charisma to have a 20 charisma, which is unreasonable assumption, simply the max he could have).
As to found gear and WBL, it's totally relevant. If the GM is giving out enough magic gear to blow WBL, then it's the GM's fault he's seeing someone overpowered.
EDIT: Ok, he'd have a couple of 1st level spells. That just means the GM handed him both encounters on a platter, letting him buff up before each fight with no issues. This makes fights easier than CR says.
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I think you are confussing things up here. The party is Level 5. He and the Sorcerer "soloed" the dragon, and it's not unlikely that said Sorcer would have some of these spells, and the Paly could cast Shield of Faith on self, not to mention have a potion/wand or two.
WBL isn't that relavent, honestly. It's a guideline, not a straight jacket. Maybe they where on the upper end of Level 5, (or using the slow advancement, so coud actually have appropriate gear more around level 6 or 7. Which is perfectly fine. Maybe someone in the party made them magical armor? Hack, maybe the freakin paladin decided to make and craft it themselves.
How is a paladin taking on a dragon? The dragon has reach, and can fly. He also should have been killed by the barbarian/fighter. One full round of power attacking puts about 60 to 70 points of damage or more on the 5th level paladin. Round 2 the match is over barring the dice gods interfering.Honestly? A bow.
That's what happened to me in Runelords, anyway. Luckily, that AP has some really nasty stretches for the paladin, with a bunch of neutral enemies, so I never felt the need to actively nerf the paladin.
I know about the archer paladin, but I was asking that specific poster because I was thinking it had more to do with tactical errors than anything else.
How is a paladin taking on a dragon? The dragon has reach, and can fly. He also should have been killed by the barbarian/fighter. One full round of power attacking puts about 60 to 70 points of damage or more on the 5th level paladin. Round 2 the match is over barring the dice gods interfering.The dragon was a pet, confined to a room. There was a nice 90 foot long by 5 foot wide corridor leading to the Dragon's room. The dragon got off a breath weapon and a free AoO attack before the paladin was able to close ranks. The paladin was able to heal himself as a free action for 3d6 every round (has greater Mercy for extra +1d6, and with feats/spec about 12 uses of Lay on Hands). The dragon had a hard time hitting the paladins high AC, so really only the breath weapon, and a rare lucky attack would affect him.
The vampire would hit with none or one of his attacks for about zero to 18 damage a round, average about 12 damage a round. The paladin would make his saves against the energy drain and self heal with LoH for about 11 damage per round.
The monsters may have not have acted intelligently in the fights, but they were not supposed to. Not all opponents are sneaky underhanded schemers. After the fight, the paladin made a truce with the Vampire Warlord and his minions, and agreed to hand over 2 minor magic items to the vampire in exchange for killing his pet dragon. The defeated vampire was vary persuasive, and the paladin very lawful stupid. So, I would say even though the paladin won the fight, he lost the battle.
If this is what really happened the paladin is not the issue.
You don't get to save against the energy drains until 24 hours later. When a vampire hits you the energy drain takes affect, but it is temporary. 24 hours later you roll for your save to make sure they do not become permanent. If you take enough negative levels to equal your character level then you die.
I also don't see how he was only doing 12 points of damage per round, and vampires are not stupid. The template gives bonuses to their intelligence.
All this shows is that paladins can take one things 4+APL if they are not played up to their CR, but a barbarian or fighter could have done the same thing if the enemies or not played up to par.
I think you are confussing things up here. The party is Level 5. He and the Sorcerer "soloed" the dragon, and it's not unlikely that said Sorcer would have some of these spells, and the Paly could cast Shield of Faith on self, not to mention have a potion/wand or two.
WBL isn't that relavent, honestly. It's a guideline, not a straight jacket. Maybe they where on the upper end of Level 5, (or using the slow advancement, so coud actually have appropriate gear more around level 6 or 7. Which is perfectly fine. Maybe someone in the party made them magical armor? Hack, maybe the freakin paladin decided to make and craft it themselves.
I understand WBL is not a straight jacket but for online discussions it is the a standard we use.
As an example:You can't really give a 1st level character 2000000 gold pieces and wonder how he killed a CR 6 monster as an example.
Even a level 1 commoner can find a way to kill somethings with that much gear. The point is simply that WBL is a factor and should be accounted for when discussing challenges to a party.
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But it really isn't a factor, and really not on topic.
As you said, if a commoner could do it with the right gear, that would be doubly true for the rest of the party, which is where the comparison is being made. They would have about the same WBL, hence it is not relevant, unless it is very far out of wack and superfavors the Paladin, (no indication this is true).
The standard we use? We don't know anything about their game. Is it low magic, are items handed out like candy, can they buy whatever they want, etc. . .
We are not talking about challenges to a party.
My point was that if I downplay a monster it can lose to anyone.
But it really isn't a factor, and really not on topic.
As you said, if a commoner could do it with the right gear, that would be doubly true for the rest of the party, which is where the comparison is being made. They would have about the same WBL, hence it is not relevant, unless it is very far out of wack and superfavors the Paladin, (no indication this is true).
The standard we use? We don't know anything about their game. Is it low magic, are items handed out like candy, can they buy whatever they want, etc. . .
We are not talking about challenges to a party.
Since gear affects combat it is part of the topic. If you don't think WBL matters then run a game without gear, and run one with gear, and try to tell the players without gear that WBL was not a factor. If you think WBL does matter then it does not make sense to call it a non-factor.
My point about the standard was that for purposes of discussions(on the boards) people must be on the same page. The game assumes the WBL chart is used for the purpose of CR's and so on. If you ignore the WBL, and don't compensate for it in other ways then you get out of whack encounters. If you are going to come on here, and say X is broken, but then give things that make the party stronger such as more gear than normal(WBL), extra spells, feats, and so on then it kind of weakens your position especially when that scenario would not happen otherwise.
Actually if the enemy can't even take on one party member it makes things very easy for the party so yeah it does matter with respect to the party, but for right now the topic is the paladin that got some enemies spoonfed to him.
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You don't get to save against the energy drains until 24 hours later. When a vampire hits you the energy drain takes affect, but it is temporary. 24 hours later you roll for your save to make sure they do not become permanent.
Temporary negative levels do not become permanent in Pathfinder. You make a new save each day until successful.
You don't get to save against the energy drains until 24 hours later. When a vampire hits you the energy drain takes affect, but it is temporary. 24 hours later you roll for your save to make sure they do not become permanent.Temporary negative levels do not become permanent in Pathfinder. You make a new save each day until successful.
They are not permanent like they were in 3.5, but you don't get new saves everyday.
Energy Drain (Su) This attack saps a living opponent's vital energy and happens automatically when a melee or ranged attack hits. Each successful energy drain bestows one or more negative levels (the creature's description specifies how many). If an attack that includes an energy drain scores a critical hit, it bestows twice the listed number of negative levels. Unless otherwise specified in the creature's description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour. Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 draining creature's racial HD + draining creature's Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature's descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.Format: energy drain (2 levels, DC 18); Location: Special Attacks and individual attacks.
I only know that because I like to use vampires a lot. I need to retire them for a while, along with phase spiders.
From what I can see.
Problem 1. The party is doing direct damage. Try some status effects. Level 6? Why not try some nice invisible enemies. How about some flying monsters? Dominate person, why not fighter? Grease, the paladin can't kill what he can't reach.
Problem 2. Paladin loves killing evil. Its what they do. Smite evil is called... well... smite evil. You want your Big bad to still be evil? Maybe he has some constructs, maybe he summoned some earth and fire elementals, they don't care if your evil or not.
Problem 3. 18s. You should always assume that when players have 18s, they are probably going to be good at what that 18 is.
Problem 4. This is not an MMO, if the big bad think he is going to die, he can GTFO up out of there.
Paladin being overpowered? Never.... Heck, asking some people, they actually got weaker. "Lay on Hands" but I'm not one of those people.
Dragons tend to be smarter then to let a party of 4 heroes just charge blindly at them. They are probably hiding inside a lair, a Dungeon if you will, made with traps and other monsters, and at the end, they are probably waiting for them, probably fully buffed, ect...
"There are lots of other ways to manage this, but just parking a blue dragon chained to the floor in front of a damned paladin is not the way to do that."
Well, as the GM, I wanted the dragon chained to the floor for this encounter. I wasn't trying to "win" playing GM. I set up this encounter for the dragon to be defeated relatively easily. I can play crafty opponents that outwit the players, but I don't choose to do that all the time, only occasionally. It isn't fun to play in a game as a player when you never get to win or use your strengths. Mostly the dragon was there for the awe factor of, "Hey, this guy has a pet dragon guarding the entrance to lower part of the dungeon. That guy must be really tough!"
I was just surprised at how much better paladins are then all the other classes and I remarked that this was unbalanced. Balance indicates that characters have strengths and weaknesses and work well together as a team. Currently, in the group I am running, the paladin has the best saves (by far), the best hp, the best AC (by far), comparable DPS, the best buffs, the best healing, the best diplomacy, and no real weaknesses. The paladin is literally a 1 man team that can do what 4 characters can do. Even if you can prove I am a bad GM, it won't change how much overpowered the paladin is.
So a L7 paladin smiting only gets +14 on the 1st hit. All other hits only get the +7 damage.
As someone else pointed out that 20 charisma is pretty impressive at Level 7. I am wondering what point buy you used and what the paladins other stats are.
The paladin in question is 5th level. He has 1 level of cleric, and 4 of paladin. He uses the level in cleric for the travel domain (+10' movement for free), the Shield of Faith buff, and adding to his ridiculously high Fort/Will saves (like +16 total). He chose the archetype Warrior of the Holy Light which instead of paladin spells at 4th level gives him a buff to saves, to hit, and damage. The paladin uses a Heavy shield +3 and a +1 longsword. He has non-magical plate armor. He only gets one attack a round. He also has a +1 cloak of protection the sorcerer made for him. (Aside: I house-rule Cloaks of Protection cost 2x listed value.)
My house rules are generous stat wise, and with an item that gives him +2 CHA, he has: STR 16, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 21.
The other player characters have similar stats, but are not as awesome as the paladin.
EDIT : Never mind, forgot it's a swift action on himself. Still, he's only got a few of those per day, and used some on the dragon.
This level 5 character has 12 uses of Lay on Hands. He used like 5 with the dragon, but still had 7 left for the vampire.
He also has the feat which lets you Raise Dead for 10 uses of Lay on Hands.
So your problem is solved - because I'm sure that the Paladin lost all his powers immediately once he started doing things like making truces with Vampire Warlords and handing over magic items in apology for killing a Dragon...
Well, possibly.... We haven't played the next session yet.
Brokering a truce with an evil party is not in itself an evil action. Imagine a pacifist paladin, he would need to do exactly that to achieve anything. You would be hard pressed to argue that pacifism is evil. The minions of the vampire were not evil, and the paladin didn't want to kill them.
In this case the paladin brokered an unfavorable deal for himself and teammates, but being stupid or a poor negotiator does not make the action evil.
His girlfriend barbarian Kelda died during the shenanigans with the dragon. The gods allowed the paladin to at least use his Raise Dead Feat (Ultimate Mercy) to bring her back from the dead the following morning. However, Kelda is going to be very upset that the paladin didn't demand weregild (payment for having been wronged in order to broker peace) from the vampire warlord Asvig for HER death, yet he paid weregild for the dragon. Meaning the paladin put less value on her than the vampire's pet dragon.
The other player characters are upset with the paladin because he brokered peace with people that had attacked them in a previous ambush and who were clearly thwarting the players objectives. Also, by brokering peace at this point, the group doesn't know what to do next.
A lot of friendly NPCs are also going to be upset with the paladin.
His truce was to achieve an honorable outcome. Although, he did have lawful blood-feud rights to kill all of them.
I will let the stupidity of his actions be his own punishment, and let him remain a confused misguided paladin. He is only level 5, he has yet to find his true path.
This level 5 character has 12 uses of Lay on Hands.
How's that?
The paladin uses a Heavy shield +3 and a +1 longsword. He has non-magical plate armor. He only gets one attack a round. He also has a +1 cloak of protection the sorcerer made for him. (Aside: I house-rule Cloaks of Protection cost 2x listed value.)My house rules are generous stat wise, and with an item that gives him +2 CHA, he has: STR 16, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 12, CHA 21.
+3 Heavy Shield = 9000gp
+2 Charisma Object = 4000gp+1 cloak of Protection = ???? Not even a standard item, did you mean cloak of resistance? If so that's 1000gp
+1 Longsword = 2000gp
Plate Armor = 1500gp
I'm sure he has some other stuff on him, but so far our grand total is 17,500gp. He's equipped like a level 6 character. And the shield technically shouldn't be possible until around 9th level (25% of wealth on defensive devices, Shield, Armor, Cloak). So... he's got the defenses of a 9th level character at 5th level, and you're shocked he's killing things without breaking a sweat? Plus you've given him uber stats, which also raises his CR by 1 at least. Again, not overpowered, your reaping what you sowed.
I am very generous with stats myself, but I know that my players are going to walk over level appropriate encounters if I give them uber stats and uber gear. I don't complain the system is borked because I don't follow the system. WBL is how the CR of the system is designed, if you throw it out the window, CR becomes meaningless. You also chained the dragon down, which makes it uber easy to kill, and you didn't do the level drain from the vamp correctly. All it takes is one or two hits on level drain and the paladin is toast. Literally.
That just means the GM handed him both encounters on a platter, letting him buff up before each fight with no issues. This makes fights easier than CR says.
Note, I said the vampire also buffed up for the duel. Buffing before the fight was expected and encouraged. The vampire got Bull Strength, a borrowed +1 ring of protection, Enlarge, potion of Heroism, See Invisible (just in case), and a +3 "to hit" DM cheating bonus when I heard that the Paladin had an AC of 34. The vampire also had Fly buffed on him, but he would lose face in front of his men if he used it, so he didn't.
The dragon in a room, was meant to be an encounter on a platter. I was just upset that the Paladin and Sorcerer finished off the whole meal before the other 2 players could even get into the room with the dragon.
The ninja/rogue was looking for a way to circle around the dragon, but there wasn't one and she ran into shadowy Allips. The magus was helping to release a vampire maiden chained to the wall. This vampire appeared to be a damsel in distress. She was a non-evil vampire, so didn't detect as evil by the paladin. Eventually, the damsel-in-distress-non-evil-vampire goes cavorting off with the NPC Varisian rogue Sandru, but that is another tale.
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I know this might sound crazy, but Pathfinder rules are technically a guideline for game play. While I don't advocate abusing bending/corrupting or downright cheating on the DM's behalf. If it furthers the game or balances it I believe it can be a useful tool.
If it is overpowered and you feel a little stifled from it's use, try;
1. Approach the player and say I am nerfing your smite to do either;
a) work only on a single strike
b) You must confirm the subject is evil prior to it's use (Through detect evil etc. (buy yourself a round)
2.Give some bad guys who have divine powers the ability to sacrifice something (spell/smite/class ability) to negate smite.
3.Give your NPCs stats you feel is high enough to challenge without decimating the party and don't give away how or why their AC is there.
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I know a few people will disagree with me because my aforementioned suggestion is sooo easily corruptible and build a terrible game in the hands of the wrong DM. But I have found that having players follow the strict rule but as a DM taking moderate liberties the game becomes manageable despite anyone's attempt to break or unbalance the game. You just have to be discrete about it and discourage any backwards engineering of NPCs.
You don't get to save against the energy drains until 24 hours later. When a vampire hits you the energy drain takes affect, but it is temporary. 24 hours later you roll for your save to make sure they do not become permanent. If you take enough negative levels to equal your character level then you die.
Ah. I screwed that up then. Live and learn. Back before Pathfinder, back all the way to Ad&D 1ed, I have allowed saving throws for level drain, because it is so devastating. I guess I am just a softie. Now that energy drain isn't as powerful with Pathfinder, I should have used the rules as given.
My point is still valid that the paladin outshines other classes, though. I wasn't trying to say I can't total party kill my player's characters as a GM. And I wasn't upset that the players or paladin won the fight. My main goal is to make a story that the players enjoy, not to maximize monster effectiveness all the time.
Two of the other players were upset by how much they got out-shined by the paladin. I was also surprised by how vastly superior the paladin is to every other class when fighting evil opponents. When other players are not having fun due to the paladin being overpowered, then it is a problem.
This level 5 character has 12 uses of Lay on Hands.How's that?
2 from Level 4 paladin (level divide by 2)
5 from 21 Charisma4 from Extra Channel
1 from "At 4th level, the warrior of the holy light gains one additional use of her lay on hands ability per day."
Just wanted to point out that "4 from extra channel" only can be used as a standard action 'channel energy', and are not available for a swift action use to lay hands on self.
So it is more accurately 8 lay on hands + 4 only to channel.(which use up 2 of the 4 each time it is used.)
As to weather it is or is not overpowered, well that is partly based on your group as well. For your table it may be. I don't have a dog in that race however.
Hopefully your group gets through it regardless!
edit: TOZ you bastich. 57 seconds!!! ;)
I'm sure he has some other stuff on him, but so far our grand total is 17,500gp. He's equipped like a level 6 character.
Yes, I meant cloak of resistance (it adds to saves). The cloak and charisma item were made by the Sorcerer, so those are half price. He has the 600gp plate armor, not the 1500gp version, sorry I wrote the wrong thing there.
I don't see a 5th level character being equipped as a 6th to be out of line. The recommended gp per level is a guideline not a rule.
ALSO: you can get around high AC by using attacks that target CMD. A grappler (vampire, or big critter) can target the CMD instead of AC and make all that armor and shield bonus mean nothing.
Just throwing another option out there to help you changeup encounters.
Just wanted to point out that "4 from extra channel" only can be used as a standard action 'channel energy', and are not available for a swift action use to lay hands on self.
So it is more accurately 8 lay on hands + 4 only to channel.(which use up 2 of the 4 each time it is used.)
Ahh, thanks for that (both posters).
Extra Channel "Special: If a paladin with the ability to channel positive energy takes this feat, she can use lay on hands four additional times a day, but only to channel positive energy."
That will nix his Raise Dead ability, unless he can find more LoH somewhere.
I'm sure he has some other stuff on him, but so far our grand total is 17,500gp. He's equipped like a level 6 character.
Yes, I meant cloak of resistance (it adds to saves). The cloak and charisma item were made by the Sorcerer, so those are half price. He has the 600gp plate armor, not the 1500gp version, sorry I wrote the wrong thing there.
I don't see a 5th level character being equipped as a 6th to be out of line. The recommended gp per level is a guideline not a rule.
The point of the post was, though, that you've given him funds like a 6th level character, but allowed him to spend his cash as if he had the crafting feat (still don't like that ruling, for this reason), and you've let him spend that 6th level WBL as if he were a 9th level character. He's spent over 60% of his wealth on defense (the one shield alone is the bulk of it).
So I mean...people are this upset about a paladin being cool in a vs. evil encounter...meanwhile wizards everywhere are bypassing encounters entirely as early as level 1.
But I will say this, that shield is *too good* for that paladin. A +3 item is too much for a level 5 guy to be considered balanced. If you say "no it's not" well...you're wrong. Because he is giving you hard evidence that it is. I'm not saying you're playing wrong, I'm saying that shield is something that a 9th level fighter would say "Hell yeah!" to.
Furthermore, I'm currently GMing for a 6th level pally, shield user with focus on defensive abilities, and his maximum possible AC against evil is 32, and that's with a spell.
The CR system (and enemy attack rolls) are generally based off the idea of armor/weapon being +1 per 3 levels. That is, at level 3, it's expected a character will have a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and maybe a +1 for something else (resistance, deflection, etc). At level 6, it goes up to expected +2, +3 at 9th, +4 at 12th, +5 at 15th, +6 at 18th. Maybe a +7 at 20th.
You can see this in the special requirements for crafting armor and weapons, that is that the crafter level must be 3 times the bonus, and it's not bypassable by adding +5. So that +3 shield is equipment designed for an 8th to 11th level character.
It may be a guideline, but you can't say a character is overpowered for his level when he has more gear than recommended for that level. CR only works if everything else meets the expectations of that CR.
Sorry to distract you with the details, but what I was trying to say was that the paladin seems unbalanced relative to other character classes. Give the same gear the paladin has to a fighter of the same level (change +2 CHA to +2 STR obviously) and have that fighter go up against the same vampire (played incorrectly again with level drain getting a save) and the fighter would be not even come close to how well the paladin did. Granted, I think the paladin should shine when Smiting Evil, it is what they excell at. I just think it needs some toning down from the "shock and awe" level to the "kick butt" level.
I knew I had to make the opposition strong against this group of characters, and I did. I am pretty good at having fights where the players just win by the skin of their teeth. My problem is if I balance it for the paladin, the other characters become ineffective. I don't think the other players like to have minion status relative to the paladin (paladin fights boss, other players fight minions).
People have given good suggestions too, such as grappling and doing a major audit of the character's abilities and buffs. (Roll for initiative: you are attacked by rules lawyers doing a surprise audit.)
The CR system (and enemy attack rolls) are generally based off the idea of armor/weapon being +1 per 3 levels. That is, at level 3, it's expected a character will have a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and maybe a +1 for something else (resistance, deflection, etc). At level 6, it goes up to expected +2, +3 at 9th, +4 at 12th, +5 at 15th, +6 at 18th. Maybe a +7 at 20th.
So a hypothetical 6th level character should have +2 weapon, +2 shield, +2 armor, for a total bonus of +6.
Then this 5th level paladin has a +1 weapon, +3 shield, and +0 armor for a total bonus of +4.
I still don't think this paladin has exceptional equipment for his level. Granted he has ONE nice item, but his other stuff is under par. His bonus per level is below what you suggested is the norm. I would even count his armor as -1, as it isn't even the 1500gp full plate, but the inferior half plate which gives 1 less AC.
Shield of Faith, Cloak of Protection, and the AC bonus from smite are all deflection bonuses and do not stack. The max AC while smithing is 31.
Hmm, I made big a post giving the details of his AC, but it got eaten by the messageboard.
Essentially, it comes down to what you said above.
Thanks for this help.
Halfplate is also armor+8 with a +0 dex bonus cap. So i see an AC of 10+8(armor)+5(shield) for a 23 baseline before the buffs and 'smiting fury' bonuses. Hope that helps!
Technically speaking i agree with the general stance several of the other posters have mentioned. Superior wealth and higher then 'normal' stats make it much easier for PC's to shine or overpower a given encounter.
Your default CR uses should probably be tweaked. One of my favorites is to drop the augmented simple template on everything and max bad guy hit points.
The CR system (and enemy attack rolls) are generally based off the idea of armor/weapon being +1 per 3 levels. That is, at level 3, it's expected a character will have a +1 weapon, +1 armor, and maybe a +1 for something else (resistance, deflection, etc). At level 6, it goes up to expected +2, +3 at 9th, +4 at 12th, +5 at 15th, +6 at 18th. Maybe a +7 at 20th.So a hypothetical 6th level character should have +2 weapon, +2 shield, +2 armor, for a total bonus of +6.
Then this 5th level paladin has a +1 weapon, +3 shield, and +0 armor for a total bonus of +4.
I still don't think this paladin has exceptional equipment for his level. Granted he has ONE nice item, but his other stuff is under par. His bonus per level is below what you suggested is the norm. I would even count his armor as -1, as it isn't even the 1500gp full plate, but the inferior half plate which gives 1 less AC.
Sorry, I didn't state that quite the way I meant it. What I meant was, he should start getting +2's around level 6. Not have +2 in everything at level 6. He should have +2's in everything at level 8, and start getting +3's around 9th. Basically, I was trying to state the game assumes you won't have ANY +1's before level 3, and no +2's before 6th (probably getting your first either right before or right after you level). The +3's shouldn't show up until late 8th level at the earliest.
So, to me, a character at level 5 should be having +1's at most, and maybe a +2 if he's almost into 6. So other than the +3 shield, he's fine. If he had a +1 armor and +1 shield, he'd be right. He also wouldn't have spent over 50% of his wealth on defense, and be easier to hit by 5%. He'd still be nasty, given he's outfitted for a 6th level, but if he's close to leveling, that would be fine.
Anyway, I think people have poked more than enough holes in his build and the way the rules were applied to prove that the notion he's overpowered has more to do with the rules applications than the class.
As to him being more powerful than a fighter vs evil, well yeah, that's sort of the point. Paladin's are evil bane with steroids and a side of manly beef and potatoes (and a small tactical nuke in the back pocket). They should outshine a fighter every time they go up against a single big bad evil guy. Especially a lone evil guy.
As the GM, you're supposed to give the Fighter a chance to shine. Throw a neutral dragon instead of an evil one. Throw a neutral cleric who worship's an Evil god (who will then ping evil, and watch the paladin waste a smite on him). Throw a neutral bad guy, who's interested in taking over the country/town/whatever but isn't evil, just greedy and selfish, or maybe he's got a valid claim to it (twin brother of the ruler). Throw out non-evil minions, or toss an Anti-Paladin at the Paladin and watch the two rage roid junkies hammer each other into scrap. Honestly, if you want the other players to shine, throw 3-4 lower level anti-paladins at the group. The Paladin will cream one, and get creamed by the others, and need the other party members to rescue his goody two shoes butt from the Smite Good's. :)
You don't get to save against the energy drains until 24 hours later. When a vampire hits you the energy drain takes affect, but it is temporary. 24 hours later you roll for your save to make sure they do not become permanent. If you take enough negative levels to equal your character level then you die.Ah. I screwed that up then. Live and learn. Back before Pathfinder, back all the way to Ad&D 1ed, I have allowed saving throws for level drain, because it is so devastating. I guess I am just a softie. Now that energy drain isn't as powerful with Pathfinder, I should have used the rules as given.
My point is still valid that the paladin outshines other classes, though. I wasn't trying to say I can't total party kill my player's characters as a GM. And I wasn't upset that the players or paladin won the fight. My main goal is to make a story that the players enjoy, not to maximize monster effectiveness all the time.
Two of the other players were upset by how much they got out-shined by the paladin. I was also surprised by how vastly superior the paladin is to every other class when fighting evil opponents. When other players are not having fun due to the paladin being overpowered, then it is a problem.
I will say the paladin is not OP, but he is OP for your group because of playstyle. I say that because what works for one group may not work for another.
I understand you want the game to be fun for everyone, and I am not saying make every fight a hard fight. I am saying that you should take the paladin's smite into consideration when designing encounters. You may have to nerf the paladin for your group.
Single enemy, chained to the floor... Even without the rest of the party, I can see how a martial character (especially one who can move faster than the other players) could make short work of it. If there were more enemies in there, maybe the other characters would have had time to shine.
I also find it ironic that a pacifist would slay an enemy chained down. Just saying out of context...
The only way a GM wins is if his group has fun, anyone who sets the goal of "defeating the players" shouldn't be a GM in the first place, no offense intended, but your goal should be "everybody had fun", not "I beat the players".
I have a new, completely inept DM, and he wins all the freaking time in relation to some of the older, more experienced, smarter, and generally more capable GMs I know. Simply because his game is entertaining.
We made it to this one town which was supposed to be the center of religion for the country we are in. Well, the country has a big problem with thieves, my character is an inquisitor, and I have a habit of infiltrating organizations in order to find out everything I can about them, then report them to the local authorities, or deal with them myself.
Unfortunately, by the time we found the thieves, they had decided to step up in the world, from thieves to terrorists, they were going to blow up the local lord's castle, using barrels of explosives. Well, my GM failed to calculate that I'd gleefully detonate them, figuring that "Well, he'll use the ring on the dudes." He figured wrong. I told the GM "I wait until they hit a relatively vacant section of town, then I will target a barrel, and say FUEGO!"
The look on the GM's face was spectacular, I wish I had a camera.
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I also find it ironic that a pacifist would slay an enemy chained down. Just saying out of context...
Yeah...the paladin in my game was removed from service of his deity for violating the Paladin code, and was quickly offered his powers back by a Pit Fiend of Asmodeus. He could stay a "good guy", Asmodeus would grant him the ability to Smite Evil and everything; he just had to wear the symbol. Pally took the deal, and sealed it by banging a succubus. For two weeks. In her fleshy hotel room in the Abyss. The pair were then plane shifted back to the rest of the group, where the Pit Fiend ordered Pallypants to kill her as a display of the new power. She couldn't move due to a Power Word: Stun. The paladin then beat her to death with a mace, and the player was shocked. SHOCKED! That he was no longer of Lawful Good alignment. One of my players (who is an actual, honest to God (lol) Satanist) looked at him and said "dude, that's f@$#ed up," before going outside to smoke.
I've found that somewhere in the neighborhood of 95% of people I have gamed with share a similar opinion of the Paladin Code and Good alignments in general. Basically, if it's evil, you're not only allowed to kill it, you should kill it, and you can do so in any fashion, for any reason, at any time.
Yeah...the paladin in my game was removed from service of his deity for violating the Paladin code, and was quickly offered his powers back by a Pit Fiend of Asmodeus. He could stay a "good guy", Asmodeus would grant him the ability to Smite Evil and everything; he just had to wear the symbol. Pally took the deal, and sealed it by banging a succubus. For two weeks. In her fleshy hotel room in the Abyss. The pair were then plane shifted back to the rest of the group, where the Pit Fiend ordered Pallypants to kill her as a display of the new power. She couldn't move due to a Power Word: Stun. The paladin then beat her to death with a mace, and the player was shocked. SHOCKED! That he was no longer of Lawful Good alignment. One of my players (who is an actual, honest to God (lol) Satanist) looked at him and said "dude, that's f@%+ed up," before going outside to smoke.
I've found that somewhere in the neighborhood of 95% of people I have gamed with share a similar opinion of the Paladin Code and Good alignments in general. Basically, if it's evil, you're not only allowed to kill it, you should kill it, and you can do so in any fashion, for any reason, at any time.
<sarcasm>Wait. You mean an agent for the Prince of Lies (i.e. Asmodeus) screwed the guy over?? Who would have guessed!?!</sarcasm>
Thanks for that, I need the lols. :D
I also find it ironic that a pacifist would slay an enemy chained down. Just saying out of context...Yeah...the paladin in my game was removed from service of his deity for violating the Paladin code, and was quickly offered his powers back by a Pit Fiend of Asmodeus. He could stay a "good guy", Asmodeus would grant him the ability to Smite Evil and everything; he just had to wear the symbol. Pally took the deal, and sealed it by banging a succubus. For two weeks. In her fleshy hotel room in the Abyss. The pair were then plane shifted back to the rest of the group, where the Pit Fiend ordered Pallypants to kill her as a display of the new power. She couldn't move due to a Power Word: Stun. The paladin then beat her to death with a mace, and the player was shocked. SHOCKED! That he was no longer of Lawful Good alignment. One of my players (who is an actual, honest to God (lol) Satanist) looked at him and said "dude, that's f@+!ed up," before going outside to smoke.
I've found that somewhere in the neighborhood of 95% of people I have gamed with share a similar opinion of the Paladin Code and Good alignments in general. Basically, if it's evil, you're not only allowed to kill it, you should kill it, and you can do so in any fashion, for any reason, at any time.
LOL. That was funny.
I also find it ironic that a pacifist would slay an enemy chained down. Just saying out of context...
The dragon wasn't literally chained to the room, but for other reasons the dragon couldn't leave the room, so figuratively speaking he was chained to the room. I can't go into specific details in case, as this is an ongoing plot device and my players may read this.