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ok so I have a +1 heavy spiked mithral shield with the bashing enchantment on it, now bashing says
"A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger"
and spikes say
"These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you"
now a heavy shield normally does 1d4, add bashing thats 1d8, and spikes add more more size category so that 2d6 damage
now me and one of the GM's I play with are having a slight disagreement on damage, he is saying i could attack with the spikes for 1d6 P dmg, or the shield for 1d8 B dmg, since the spikes arent affected by the bashing enchantment. However I feel from a logical stand point the enchantment on the shield just makes you bash with more force the spike just make the bash dig into the victim further, doing the total 2d6 damage.
So what are you guys takes on this?
ok so I have a +1 heavy spiked mithral shield with the bashing enchantment on it, now bashing says
"A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger"
and spikes say
"These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you"
now a heavy shield normally does 1d4, add bashing thats 1d8, and spikes add more more size category so that 2d6 damage
now me and one of the GM's I play with are having a slight disagreement on damage, he is saying i could attack with the spikes for 1d6 P dmg, or the shield for 1d8 B dmg, since the spikes arent affected by the bashing enchantment. However I feel from a logical stand point the enchantment on the shield just makes you bash with more force the spike just make the bash dig into the victim further, doing the total 2d6 damage.
So what are you guys takes on this?
I'd say pick either the bash or the spikes to attack with. Even with the enchantment I find it hard to argue that a spiked shield would do as much damage with an offhand attack as a greatsword.
yeah that is my GM's thoughts, however the other ones I play with say it does 2d6 as the rules are very straight forward of its a 3 size category damage increase, so depending on the place im playing i do different damage
From the equipment section under shield spike: 'An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.'
So you could add an enhancement to the spike and give it improved damage, but you couldn't combine it with a shield of bashing since that's a Shield only enhancement.
I'd rule 2d6 but it's got no enhancement bonuses to hit or damage unless you enchant the shield spike as a weapon or have Shield Master.
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Yes a +1 bashing spiked heavy shield really does stack to produce a weapon dealing 2d6 damage. Gratz, you just made your self a 3,000 gp greatsword that only deals +Str damage and only crits on a 20 and when used as an off-hand weapon with TWF gives you a -4 to all attacks. Not to mention spending multiple feats to be used effectively (Improved shield bash, two-weapon fighting, etc). That should be enough to convince any GM its a balanced design.
Myself I prefer sporting a light shield for the normal TWF penalities.
Liquidsabre is right...
When one of my min/maxing players presented this option I screamed WTF! But given a second tought... it's not that unbalanced....
Would it be alright for you if he had enchanted the spikes with say.... the Frost ability and making the shield deal 1d8+1d6 shocking?
A shield basher has good flavor and is not THAT unbalanced...
Liquidsabre is right...
When one of my min/maxing players presented this option I screamed WTF! But given a second tought... it's not that unbalanced....
Would it be alright for you if he had enchanted the spikes with say.... the Frost ability and making the shield deal 1d8+1d6 shocking?
A shield basher has good flavor and is not THAT unbalanced...
Yeah, wouldn't see a problem with that. With what you're saying there though, you could still add the Frost or other energy type damage and get a spiked bashing shield of frost that hit for 3d6 and half strength. Perfectly allowable if you wish, but seems a fair bit of cheese to me, and any DM that feels the same should be able to say, not in my game.
Yeah, wouldn't see a problem with that. With what you're saying there though, you could still add the Frost or other energy type damage and get a spiked bashing shield of frost that hit for 3d6 and half strength. Perfectly allowable if you wish, but seems a fair bit of cheese to me, and any DM that feels the same should be able to say, not in my game.Liquidsabre is right...
When one of my min/maxing players presented this option I screamed WTF! But given a second tought... it's not that unbalanced....
Would it be alright for you if he had enchanted the spikes with say.... the Frost ability and making the shield deal 1d8+1d6 shocking?
A shield basher has good flavor and is not THAT unbalanced...
I'm not so sure that's cheezy when you take into account the number of feats that go into it and the cost. (Remember you're paying for a +2 spiked shield [u]and[/u] a +2 wpn (so around 12k off the top of my head.)
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It is a great option truth be told. there are a couple posts about If you take Sheild Mastery, you take no penalty for TWF and add the sheild bonus to hit and damage.
so for you "3,000 gp greatsword" is now +4 sheild bonus to ac, +2 to hit, 2d6+2+half strength damage. and if you enhance it past the the 2 sheild bonus inheriant to a large sheild you increase the AC and hit/dmg ( imageine a +5 large sheild bashing (+9 to ac +5hit/damage.)
Very nice if you ask me, But it is a large investment in feats, so it is suposed to be good.
so for you "3,000 gp greatsword" is now +4 sheild bonus to ac, +2 to hit, 2d6+2+half strength damage. and if you enhance it past the the 2 sheild bonus inheriant to a large sheild you increase the AC and hit/dmg ( imageine a +5 large sheild bashing (+9 to ac +5hit/damage.)
A +5 Heavy Shield would only give +2Hit/Damage with Shield Mastery. The magical part does not increase the bonus you get from Shield Mastery. Per the Unofficial FAQ or Jason's forum post.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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bashing thats 1d8, and spikes add more more size category so that 2d6 damage
So what are you guys takes on this?
Absolutely without a doubt Spikes won't stack with Bashing.
Spikes explicitly only go up one size from you, so if you are Medium (1d4) then the Spiked Shield will explicitly be = 1d6. Adding Bashing makes your Medium "Spiked" Shield work as if it was two sizes larger (Huge/1d8) and the Spiked property ceases to function because the Shield isn't Medium any more.
The wording on Spiked is the same as Powerful Build and is the reason PB and Monkey Grip never stacked. There is no valid RAW interpretation that can be asserted that Spiked will continue to function once the size of the weapon is changed.
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Spikes explicitly only go up one size from you, so if you are Medium (1d4) then the Spiked Shield will explicitly be = 1d6. Adding Bashing makes your Medium "Spiked" Shield work as if it was two sizes larger (Huge/1d8) and the Spiked property ceases to function because the Shield isn't Medium any more.
I'm confussed. What does not being medium have to do with it? Are you thinking that the shield actually gets bigger and can't be weilded?
The wording on Spiked is the same as Powerful Build and is the reason PB and Monkey Grip never stacked. There is no valid RAW interpretation that can be asserted that Spiked will continue to function once the size of the weapon is changed.
This may have changed in different errata, but actually Powerful Build and Monkey Grip do stack.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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" bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger"
True, and it works but irrelevant.
meaning a spiked shield does 1d6, 2 sizes larger is 2d6 because a gargantuan spiked shield does 2d6 damage
No, because a Spike Shield will ONLY activate when you are one size and it is another size. Once you add Bashing it becomes +2 sizes which negates the benefit of Spiked.
You would be right (+3 sizes) if Spiked said "deals damage as if it were a weapon size larger" but it doesn't say that.
Are you thinking that the shield actually gets bigger and can't be weilded?
This may have changed in different errata, but actually Powerful Build and Monkey Grip do stack.
Spiked depends on your size and only allows the weapon to function as one size larger than your size.
As for PB/MG stacking, you are entirely wrong. It has never stacked and the FAQ made this explicitly clear. At no point was there any consideration they ever stacked, at least not by RAW.
This exact question is handled in the D&D 3.5 FAQ.
It has the same wording in 3.p as Powerful Build which was in the FAQ as not stacking due the the wording.
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You do understand that a spiked shield is not a magical property? It doesn't "activate" at all. A shield is either spiked or not. If so, it deals more damage because it is a different weapon, but rather than laying out different spiked and not shields, it just deals damage as if it were a NonSpiked shield whose damage were one size highrer. The shield itself does not change sizes in any way. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just really confussed by what your saying.
Here is an excerpt from the D&D 3.5 faq.
I believe this is amount as close to exactly dealing the situation of using the bashing enhancement on a spiked shield as you can get. I have to believe the above mentioned question is more relivent that the powerful build/monkey grip question. And I don't feel that powerful build and monkey grip use the exact same text either.
The description of the magical bashing property for
shields says it can be added only to light or heavy shields.
Does this exclude shields with shield spikes? That is, can
you have a +2 spiked light shield of bashing?
You can add the bashing property to a spiked shield. If you
do, the damage dealt by the shield bash increases from normal
by 3 steps (2 for the bashing property and 1 for the shield
spikes) , and the weapon becomes a martial piercing weapon.
The example +1 spiked light shield of bashing, if made for a
Medium character, would deal 1d8 points of piercing damage
from the bash. (Normally a light shield bash deals 1d3 points of
damage, but the spikes improve that to 1d4 and the bashing
enhancement increases that to 1d8.)
Reading the 3.5 FAQ, I'd expect the Pathfinder RPG heavy spiked shield of bashing to do 2d6 +1 +1/2 strength modifier.
Depends on if you are using the shield as an off hand weapon or not. If it is your main weapon it is Str or even Str and 1/2. As a One Handed Weapon you can use both hands to weild it, or use it with two weapon fighting and say a dagger.
So you don't give any heed to the line "Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."?
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I don't think that it has to only be an off hand attack. That is just the norm. I'm not going to get into nitty gritty rules (because there is no true answer for this).
I'm thinking Capt. America style, where the Shield is also the Main weapon. As a One Handed Weapon, it can be used Two handedly (just like a Long Sword). Also, both the Gauntlet/spike gauntlet, and spiked armor said something similar, (at least in 3E) and were not restricted to that only, it was just the norm.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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You do understand that a spiked shield is not a magical property?
I understand it has wording identical to Powerful Build and should be rejected on the same terms that Powerful Build is rejected in the very same FAQ.
The phrase "one size larger than your size" means something explicit.
In this case, the FAQ writer (in 3.5) rejected Bashing Spiked Shields outright, but went on to say essentially (if the DM allows them but he shouldn't) they would do X.
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You do understand that a spiked shield is not a magical property?I understand it has wording identical to Powerful Build and should be rejected on the same terms that Powerful Build is rejected in the very same FAQ.
The phrase "one size larger than your size" means something explicit.
In this case, the FAQ writer (in 3.5) rejected Bashing Spiked Shields outright, but went on to say essentially (if the DM allows them but he shouldn't) they would do X.
I believe your making it way to complicated,
damage done by a huge sized spiked shield is 2d6bashing says the bash does damage as if it was a weapon of 2 size categories larger therefore my medium spiked shield does damage as if it were huge sized meaning it does 2d6