To have divine casters match our view, we have transposted the Sorcerer's Spells/Day and Spell Known to the Cleric and Druid.
So, your first level cleric only knows two spells? Maybe Cure Light Wounds and Bless, for example, then he can cast them 4 times, picking which one to cast each time he casts a spell?
Yikes!
I like the current way, thanks anyway.
What you seem to want is a Favored Soul. Look them up, they're in 3.5, I think it's the Complete Divine.
You might consider just dropping the bonus domain spell and letting them spontaneously cast anything on their entire list. So a first level cleric gets 1 spell (not 1+1) plus his WIS bonus spells, and he can spontaneously cast any spell on the level 1 cleric list (plus his domain spells if those aren't on that list).
I've played them this way and they're not overpowered.
Unearthed Arcana had rules for making Clerics into spontaneous casters. Unearthed Arcana is "open content" so available on the SRD.
Here's a link: Spontaneous Cleric SRD
However, as mentioned, the "Favored soul" in Complete Divine was a spontaneous casting divine caster (that used the Cleric spell list) that had a more generous "spells known". However, they did not get domains or turning.
Also check out the Spirit Shaman from the same book. The Spirit Shaman used the Druids spell list, but the mechanic they used for spells was pretty interesting, kind of a mix between preparing and spontaneous casting.
The spirit shaman, in my opinion, was a wasted class. It has a powerful & effective spontaneous spellcasting ability. They gained spells at the same speed as a wizard, yet by 20 were casting as much as a sorcerer. Each morning they basically got to choose their spells known list, which was about 1 shy of a standard sorcerer, and had to prepare spells with metamagic effects already in place. It was super amazing.
The downside is that the class is geared towards "spirits," which rarely come up in standard gameplay and thus your class features are largely wasted. Also, spellcasting required two stats, like the favored soul, to work at all (Wisdom to cast, bonus spells & DC from Charisma)- effectively nerfing your spellcasting ability.
Regardless, it's a mighty powerful class that could be particularly powerful given the right setup.
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The proselyte works well as a spontaneous caster - but if you haven't got any standard divine casters in your game, just making the cleric a spontaneous caster would work too, methinks.
my group uses the spell point system from unearthed arcana but added a rule that if you wanted to cast a spell that was not in your known spells list it would cost you double the points.
Blake with the ability to convert spells to healing we never bothered with learning any of the cure spells.To have divine casters match our view, we have transposted the Sorcerer's Spells/Day and Spell Known to the Cleric and Druid.So, your first level cleric only knows two spells? Maybe Cure Light Wounds and Bless, for example, then he can cast them 4 times, picking which one to cast each time he casts a spell?
Yikes!
I like the current way, thanks anyway.
What you seem to want is a Favored Soul. Look them up, they're in 3.5, I think it's the Complete Divine.
You might consider just dropping the bonus domain spell and letting them spontaneously cast anything on their entire list. So a first level cleric gets 1 spell (not 1+1) plus his WIS bonus spells, and he can spontaneously cast any spell on the level 1 cleric list (plus his domain spells if those aren't on that list).
I've played them this way and they're not overpowered.
Ahh, well, I had assumed it would be hard to spontaneously switch to a spell they didn't know, so I thought it would be best to make sure they knew it as one of their two.
Still awfully limiting.
My group and I are soon starting a Golarion game using the Pathfinder RPG.
After discussion about our collective views on priests we reached two views.
First is simple. Many priests are not actually clerics. They are a collection of Experts, Adepts and Aristocrats guarded by Warriors. Actual Clerics are the minority in churches.
Second is more complex. Our view on divine casters has for a long time been that of "pray for what is needed at the time" instead of the vancian "pray for your spells at the begining of the day".
To have divine casters match our view, we have transposted the Sorcerer's Spells/Day and Spell Known to the Cleric and Druid.
-Weylin
I'd favour something similar over the favoured-soul (no pun intended). Not a fan of prepared divine spellcasters myself, but also not a fan of additional base classes; which leaves the option of houseruling...
I'd give the cure X wounds series as free bonus spells for Clerics and summon nature's ally series as free bonus spells for Druids. I'd also give them free casting among their domain spells, which should extend their selection of known spells a bit. Druids would still be short on spell 'though, and druid spells are even more situational than cleric spells...
[edit] For a [more known spells / less spell slots per day] option, invert the two progressions. It comes out relatively similar. Actually, the first time I looked at the Sorcerer, I thought is was an editing error and they confused the spells per day with the known spells tables...
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In our game the cleric would get the Heal X Wounds and Domain spell as extra spells known.
This would be pretty awesome.
One thing I was agitating for back in Alpha was giving all spellcasters at 1st level the choice of being prepared casters (complete with spellbooks / prayerbooks / etc.) or spontaneous casters (with an extra spell or two per level per day, like a sorcerer, but a tiny spells known list).
Adding in free access to Domain spells and / or whatever the Cleric or Druid can spontaneously cast would make sense.
I definitely like the idea. I've always thought that a priest should learn a set number of 'prayers' or rituals or whatever and be able to call upon them at will. Vancian preparation made some sense for the book-studiers (no matter how much I didn't like it), but never really fit the Cleric / Druid / Paladin / Ranger feel, IMO.
Still swimming in 'houserules' waters...
One of the strengths of Clerics and Druids as written is that they have access (albeit not immediate access) to a rather large spell pool, since they automatically "know" their whole spell list. Going from this to a narrow selection of spells can be rather dramatic.
In order to increase their selection of spell a bit further, the spontaneous Druid or Cleric could have access to additional spells under certain conditions (while in their place of worship, under a particular holiday etc).
Basically working from the Hallow spell, some shrines or ancestral mounds could be known to grant this or that spell. Perhaps all priests of [enter god of wild hunt] gain animal shapes on their annual 'wild hunt' or something like that. While this could be thematically interesting, I wonder how it would work in terms of gameplay.
"No, my patron has not yet granted me the power to raise the dead, but if we can make it to the sacred pools of mount glorious, I'll be able to bring him to life"
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Still swimming in 'houserules' waters...
One of the strengths of Clerics and Druids as written is that they have access (albeit not immediate access) to a rather large spell pool, since they automatically "know" their whole spell list. Going from this to a narrow selection of spells can be rather dramatic.
Exactly. The difference between a Cleric and a Wizard is amazingly steep. They both 'memorize' spells each day, but take away a Wizard's spellbook and it's all sorts of pain. The difference between a Cleric and Sorcerer is similarly dramatic.
At the end of the day, though, it's your game and you can definitely do as you wish. I'll bump the idea to check the Favored Soul, as it fits the mechanics that I think you're trying to get.
But having Spontaneous Spells Per Day + Cleric spells + Cleric abilities = something I'm not sure would work.
Just my 2cp.
(...) having Spontaneous Spells Per Day + Cleric spells + Cleric abilities = something I'm not sure would work.
Just my 2cp.
Why not, if I may ask? What ability does the cleric have that is so tied to its vancian spellcasting, other than tradition?
Compared to the wizard, the sorcerer is significantly different mainly because of the absence of spellbook, which has it own set of rules that is intimately attached to the wizard. The cleric does not have such a thing and always came with much less "strings attached". Other than the mechanics of spontaneous spellcasting vs. prepared spellcasting, neither cleric nor favoured soul is conceptually linked to a particular type of magic, other than as I said, the tradition of how the cleric has been working since 1st ed.
Why not, if I may ask?
I apologize if the last post sounded nasty, it was meant as a genuine question.
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But having Spontaneous Spells Per Day + Cleric spells + Cleric abilities = something I'm not sure would work.
It seems to me that a spontaneous Cleric or Druid would be significantly *weaker* than the current setup, being limited to a very small list of Spells Known (even if cure wounds or Domain spells are included free), instead of having access to every single spell on the Cleric or Druid list (including any new spells that show up in Gods & Magic or the various regional Companions or the god's write-ups in the APs. Yeah, he's got a few extra spells per day, but when the party gets attacked by shadows or is poisoned or diseased, if he didn't fill up his Spells Known with Lesser Restoration, Cure Disease and Neutralize Poison, his allies are going to be out of luck.
There are tons of utility spells that a Cleric might need, like Align Weapon or Dimensional Anchor that end up becoming scroll-fodder for the spontaneous Cleric, as he can't afford to take them as Spells Known, costing him money that another Cleric might not have to pay, if they know they are facing opponents of a certain sort, and can prepare the appropriate spells in advance. Where the standard Cleric, entering an adventure related to fiendish entities, can prepare these sorts of spells and Banishments and Magic Circles of Protection vs X, the spontaneous Cleric has to pay out of pocket to use these spells, and will be casting them off of scrolls, not benefitting from his own caster level.
The biggest 'deal' of the Cleric and Druid is their unlimited access to spell lists. Going spontaneous (or going prepared but requiring them to fill up a prayerbook similarly to the Wizard's spell aquisition system) is generally regarded as a serious *nerf,* one that limits the Cleric to the same access as the Sorcerer (the only core full caster that *isn't* regarded as 'tier one').