Recently my group was having the discussion of what requires the biggest "stretch of imagination" to allow when playing Pathinder/3.5
Allowing for such things as spells, prayers, monk powers, etc We came to the conclusion that the spiked chain was the biggest stretch. No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.
What do you all see as "the biggest cheese"?
LOL
No disrespect to the spiked chain wielders of the world
No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.
I always thought of the spiked chain as more of a meteor hammer or a rope dart. It's not really as much of a stretch as you'd think. (unless you're looking at the pics with the spikes along nearly the entire length of it.)
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Knight3/Fighter4/Paladin3/Hellreaver10 (i think thats the build) specialized in the guisarme, tripping, power attacking, with the help of the mage slayer feat and abuse of the reach rules. as well as combat reflexes abuse
basics, first round, have someone enlarge you while you have your Guisarme in hand. (wand works too) now you have 20 foot reach. thanks to bullwark of defense, nobody within 20 feet of you can take a 5 foot step without provoking, any mages in your reach cannot cast defensively. mages are gauranteed to provoke. either by moving or by casting. charging you also provokes. tripping someone guarantees a free attack and a +4 to hit to cancel out power attack penalties. if you have the short haft feat, then you threaten adjacent targets too. either way, your targets are going to provoke in some way. standing up, casting, charging, just plain moving, or even retreating. my DM blames it on the mage slayer feat. really all the contributing feats were in PHB1 or PHB2 except mage slayer, same with the classes except hellreaver.
Restricted class use giving magic item creation a lower cost.
"I want a magic sword that can only be wielded by Barbarians for my Barb."
"My Staff of Power is just like the regular one put can only be used by Wizards"
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Lawful good. Hellreaver is one of those PRC's tailored to slaughtering evil outsiders. the Hellreaver PRC is the Hitler of paladins. no demon left alive, nor tiefling, nor fiendish blooded sorcerer nor even a cleric of Asmodeus.
i don't know how the guy was allowed to be still lawful good.
but i don't see alignment restrictions as a way to balance classes.
but restricted use magic items are a bad thing too.
i thought i was asked what alignment the guy was.
Pun Pun?
Restricted class use giving magic item creation a lower cost.
"I want a magic sword that can only be wielded by Barbarians for my Barb."
"My Staff of Power is just like the regular one put can only be used by Wizards"
Haha, I once did this but got really outrageous with it. I made a staff that was only usable by lawful good human wizards. My DM let me do it, but then turned me into a Satyr. Lesson learned. :)
Haha, I once did this but got really outrageous with it. I made a staff that was only usable by lawful good human wizards. My DM let me do it, but then turned me into a Satyr. Lesson learned. :)Restricted class use giving magic item creation a lower cost.
"I want a magic sword that can only be wielded by Barbarians for my Barb."
"My Staff of Power is just like the regular one put can only be used by Wizards"
I thought when you got polymorphed you kept your type :)
I thought when you got polymorphed you kept your type :)Haha, I once did this but got really outrageous with it. I made a staff that was only usable by lawful good human wizards. My DM let me do it, but then turned me into a Satyr. Lesson learned. :)Restricted class use giving magic item creation a lower cost.
"I want a magic sword that can only be wielded by Barbarians for my Barb."
"My Staff of Power is just like the regular one put can only be used by Wizards"
Died via poison and reincarnated as a Satyr since "no clerics" were available and it was the party's decision, not mine. Jerks. :)
No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.I always thought of the spiked chain as more of a meteor hammer or a rope dart. It's not really as much of a stretch as you'd think. (unless you're looking at the pics with the spikes along nearly the entire length of it.)
Yeah, I always figured that picture was drawn by someone who'd never seen any actual chain weapons. To me, a spiked chain is effectively a 6 foot manriki-gusari with morning-star heads.
Yeah, I always figured that picture was drawn by someone who'd never seen any actual chain weapons. To me, a spiked chain is effectively a 6 foot manriki-gusari with morning-star heads.
Exactly. Think Gogo Yubari from Kill Bill.
Yep... my take on the (PF) spiked chain basically lets you use it as a thrown weapon to 10 feet. Only 5' threat, and you provoke for attacking at range.
Biggest cheese: wizard.
Or clever use of google. :)
Biggest cheese: wizard.
Oh come now you're not one of THOSE are you?
Okay, let me clarify: with the exception of a few hilariously bad feats and spells (easily laughed out of the game before they do any harm), nothing is inherently cheese; it only becomes such after being sniffed out by cheese-seeking CharOp fetishists. Wizard is the golden boy in that department.
So if by "those" you meant wizard-nerf-demander, no, I'm not one. Wizards are totally cool by me.
I'm going with an answer completely different from those before. Here's what I think is the biggest cheese of D&D.
"Bandits are making the roads unsafe. What do we do?" "Go to their hideout, explore it, kill the bandits, and take their treasure."
"My girlfriend got captured! What do we do?" "Go to the dungeon where those monsters took her, explore the dungeon, kill the monsters, and take their treasure."
"There's a disease breaking out! What do we do?" "Go to the dungeon where the cure lies, explore it, kill the monsters there, and take their treasure."
"We have a problem. There's a..." "Go to the dungeon, explore it, kill the monsters there, and take their treasure." "I didn't even say what the problem is!" "It doesn't matter. The solution to ANY problem is to go to a dungeon, explore..." "All right, all right!"
It seems corny to me that all problems have the same answer. Oh, occasionally an adventure can come up with a twist (e.g. make FRIENDS with the monsters and GIVE them treasure,) but the rule is to use the same old formula, because it works, and it's fun. But it does seem corny.
And what's the solution? Explore the dungeon, kill the monsters...
If by cheese you mean awesomeness, casting call lightning storm, turning into a shambler, grappling someone, and calling down lightning on yourself and purposefully failing your reflex save to gain con and inflict full damage on the guy you're sitting on..shambling on?
Recently my group was having the discussion of what requires the biggest "stretch of imagination" to allow when playing Pathinder/3.5
Allowing for such things as spells, prayers, monk powers, etc We came to the conclusion that the spiked chain was the biggest stretch. No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.What do you all see as "the biggest cheese"?
LOL
No disrespect to the spiked chain wielders of the world
The spiked chain is quite similar to the chain weapons that Japenese ninja's used. The kusarigama is a chain weapon with steal ball on one end and hooked blade on the other. As well other chain weapons were used that you can google to see pictures. So I don't think the spiked chain is cheese.
The spiked chain is quite similar to the chain weapons that Japenese ninja's used. The kusarigama is a chain weapon with steal ball on one end and hooked blade on the other. As well other chain weapons were used that you can google to see pictures. So I don't think the spiked chain is cheese.
ah but ya see to use it at rang ya need to whip it around your head..needing a 20' fighting space with the range it has at the very lest a 10' fighting space, it would be prob take a full round action to make one attack(maybe not} and you would have to switch styles(holding in it like 2 weapons) to use adjutant and it would be unlikely to threaten anything other then anyone in your party close to you
Now if it did not threaten AoO's and needed a move action to switch styles I could see it but it did not. so yeah pure cheese
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The spiked chain is quite similar to the chain weapons that Japenese ninja's used. The kusarigama is a chain weapon with steal ball on one end and hooked blade on the other. As well other chain weapons were used that you can google to see pictures. So I don't think the spiked chain is cheese.Recently my group was having the discussion of what requires the biggest "stretch of imagination" to allow when playing Pathinder/3.5
Allowing for such things as spells, prayers, monk powers, etc We came to the conclusion that the spiked chain was the biggest stretch. No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.What do you all see as "the biggest cheese"?
LOL
No disrespect to the spiked chain wielders of the world
Yup, the spiked chain is just a victim of a badly drawn series of images.
Now the Urumi is a screwed up weapon Linky, but I still allowed stats for a slashing spiked chain to be used (not able to sunder with it though) because the player showed me pics and stuff.Biggest cheese to me? The 500-600 different WOTC prestige classes produced for 3.5 that lead to everyone* wanting to take 3 classes, 3 prestige classes and a series of feat combos to make their PC broken.
*everyone is not implied to actually mean everyone, it is sarcasm wrapped in irony and laced with contempt.
try that with a spiked chain and ya bleed to death :), yeah the art was bad...sooooooooo bad. I always used it as Bludgeon and more like a MA chain then that dumb pic
Edit: My own house rule was it took a move action to change styles and it did not threaten an area
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The spiked chain is quite similar to the chain weapons that Japenese ninja's used. The kusarigama is a chain weapon with steal ball on one end and hooked blade on the other. As well other chain weapons were used that you can google to see pictures. So I don't think the spiked chain is cheese.
ah but ya see to use it at rang ya need to whip it around your head..needing a 20' fighting space with the range it has at the very lest a 10' fighting space, it would be prob take a full round action to make one attack(maybe not} and you would have to switch styles(holding in it like 2 weapons) to use adjutant and it would be unlikely to threaten anything other then anyone in your party close to you
Now if it did not threaten AoO's and needed a move action to switch styles I could see it but it did not. so yeah pure cheese
A lot of the maneuvers that are used don't require needing 20' of fighting space, there are thrusting moves and other sequences that require a very small amount of room. People who train for years with these types of weapon aren't a danger to everyone around them while wielding them, at least not anymore than the 7' half-orc that swings his 6' long greataxe about like he is harvesting wheat is a danger to his buddy the fighter standing right next to him or the rogue behind the dude being hacked.
A guisarme is a pole with a long slashing blade on it and people don't yell about how that is dangerous and takes up extra space to use.Spend a feat, do less damage, increase your combat options (which require more feats), and hear people whine.....or just take a polearm weapon and take the short haft feat for much the same result without as much whine.
People hate what they don't understand and the horribly drawn SC doesn't help people understand it.
Agreed...the problem with the spiked chain has always been two fold, one being the art, the second the relative craptasticness of almost all other exotics to the point of being wasted feats. When ever I picture a chain wielder I think Kill Bill, or Jackie Chan in Shanghi Noon with the Rope and Horseshoe. For the record I am playing my first one after it started out on the ground floor of 3.5 in my current campaign and he has only used it to trip once ( going a rogue build with vexing flanker) ...also the mini wields a length of chain with a spike on one end and a grapple looking weight on the other. Makes more sense for piercing damage and the trip attack.
If by cheese you mean awesomeness, casting call lightning storm, turning into a shambler, grappling someone, and calling down lightning on yourself and purposefully failing your reflex save to gain con and inflict full damage on the guy you're sitting on..shambling on?
Doesn't work. No polymorph spell or ability has ever given you the healed-by-lightning ability that shambling mounds have.
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If by cheese you mean awesomeness, casting call lightning storm, turning into a shambler, grappling someone, and calling down lightning on yourself and purposefully failing your reflex save to gain con and inflict full damage on the guy you're sitting on..shambling on?Doesn't work. No polymorph spell or ability has ever given you the healed-by-lightning ability that shambling mounds have.
No you're wrong colonel sanders! Mamma's right.
3.5 Shapechange
You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms.
Worst cheese to me? Divine Metamagic (complete divine) You can now use turn/rebuke undead attempts to fuel your metamagic spell level increases.
Cleric can turn undead 3 + Cha modifer times per day.
Now, throw that together with Persistant spell, and at first level, with a human and a flaw, I can persist a first level spell!
Human feat: Extend Spell
1st level feat: Persistant Spell
Flaw feat: Divine Metamagic
There are lots of items that increases your turn undead attempts per day (ever see the Nightstick from Libris Mortis? 4 times additional per day for 7.5k).
I was so glad to see Persistant spell removed from Pathfinder, I actually stood up and did a little jig.
Worst cheese to me? Divine Metamagic (complete divine) You can now use turn/rebuke undead attempts to fuel your metamagic spell level increases.
Cleric can turn undead 3 + Cha modifer times per day.
Now, throw that together with Persistant spell, and at first level, with a human and a flaw, I can persist a first level spell!
Human feat: Extend Spell
1st level feat: Persistant Spell
Flaw feat: Divine MetamagicThere are lots of items that increases your turn undead attempts per day (ever see the Nightstick from Libris Mortis? 4 times additional per day for 7.5k).
I was so glad to see Persistant spell removed from Pathfinder, I actually stood up and did a little jig.
I don't think persistant spell is open content. It was never core. I think it came out first as a Faerun setting thing and then was put in complete arcane with a much higher mod. Was originally 2 or 3 spell levels I think.
Worst cheese to me? Divine Metamagic (complete divine) You can now use turn/rebuke undead attempts to fuel your metamagic spell level increases.
Cleric can turn undead 3 + Cha modifer times per day.
Now, throw that together with Persistant spell, and at first level, with a human and a flaw, I can persist a first level spell!
Human feat: Extend Spell
1st level feat: Persistant Spell
Flaw feat: Divine MetamagicThere are lots of items that increases your turn undead attempts per day (ever see the Nightstick from Libris Mortis? 4 times additional per day for 7.5k).
I was so glad to see Persistant spell removed from Pathfinder, I actually stood up and did a little jig.
I had a person do this in a gestault game with paladin/cleric-Fist of something or other. he also had a bunch of those nightsticks, it was pretty rediculous all told. But it was a pretty high power game so it didnt matter a whole lot.
I don't think persistant spell is open content. It was never core. I think it came out first as a Faerun setting thing and then was put in complete arcane with a much higher mod. Was originally 2 or 3 spell levels I think.
That may be. We've had to "house rule" very few things (as we generally don't abuse things badly), but this was one that definately had to be done. Persistant spell is bad enough once you get up in levels....divine metamagic though? No way, that's been deleted for us.
DMM (Persist) isn't so bad if you simply houserule that they can't raise spell to a higher level than they can already cast.
If the character can't cast 5th level spells, then they can't use meta-magic to raise a spell to 5th level or higher.
Actually, DMM persist isn't bad so long as you can't stack multiple nightsticks.If only one can work per day (or if they simply don't work at all, different DM's make different calls) then its no longer a major issue.
Actually, this was errated by WOTC somewhere. You can only have one "active" stick per day. It's still the point...persisting spells that easily (actually, I think persist is pretty powerful as it is) is crazy on our games.
yeah spiked chain, divine metamagic, and persistent spell all sit right up there together.
Recently my group was having the discussion of what requires the biggest "stretch of imagination" to allow when playing Pathinder/3.5
Allowing for such things as spells, prayers, monk powers, etc We came to the conclusion that the spiked chain was the biggest stretch. No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.
One of the latest WotC 3.5 books had a prestige class that allowed you to dual-wield spiked chains. That always struck me as quite unbelievable (both being able to do that efficiently, and that a PrC was made that allowed it).
Recently my group was having the discussion of what requires the biggest "stretch of imagination" to allow when playing Pathinder/3.5
Allowing for such things as spells, prayers, monk powers, etc We came to the conclusion that the spiked chain was the biggest stretch. No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.One of the latest WotC 3.5 books had a prestige class that allowed you to dual-wield spiked chains. That always struck me as quite unbelievable (both being able to do that efficiently, and that a PrC was made that allowed it).
I don't think it was dual wielding but using it as a double weapon? or are we thinking of different things?
I don't think it was dual wielding but using it as a double weapon? or are we thinking of different things?Recently my group was having the discussion of what requires the biggest "stretch of imagination" to allow when playing Pathinder/3.5
Allowing for such things as spells, prayers, monk powers, etc We came to the conclusion that the spiked chain was the biggest stretch. No one could logically see how someone could effectively wield a spiked chain in combat and yet it was one of the most powerful wapons in 3.5 before it's nerfing.One of the latest WotC 3.5 books had a prestige class that allowed you to dual-wield spiked chains. That always struck me as quite unbelievable (both being able to do that efficiently, and that a PrC was made that allowed it).
The Chain lash from Savage speicies was a double wpn with reach.
I don't think it was dual wielding but using it as a double weapon? or are we thinking of different things?
It was the Cavestalker from Drow of the Underdark, which gives you Two-Weapon Figthing and lets you consider Spiked Chains as one size category smaller :)
I don't think it was dual wielding but using it as a double weapon? or are we thinking of different things?
It was the Cavestalker from Drow of the Underdark, which gives you Two-Weapon Figthing and lets you consider Spiked Chains as one size category smaller :)
Well that is just awesome :)
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Warlock/wizard synergy. The wizards supplies Scribe Scroll, the warlock supplies the spell prerequisite using Imbue Item, and they Scribe Scrolls of every spell the wizard doesn't already know, so he can copy them into his spellbook. It isn't even obscure.
Now I want to add a houserule spell: Summon Bigger Cheese.
If by cheese you mean awesomeness, casting call lightning storm, turning into a shambler, grappling someone, and calling down lightning on yourself and purposefully failing your reflex save to gain con and inflict full damage on the guy you're sitting on..shambling on?Doesn't work. No polymorph spell or ability has ever given you the healed-by-lightning ability that shambling mounds have.I beg to differ, Shapechange grants extraordinary qualities, which it is.
Edit: I've always hated the half-dragon troll cheese. Its unoriginal and boring. You cant die, woo freakin ho, doesnt mean you cant suck.
Change him into a statue using flesh to stone(may be wrong name), or PAO then disintegrate him. :)
Forcecage him while he is inside the area of a cloudkill spell. Con damage is never nonlethal. :)
My cheese contribution: "The book does not say I can't so I can."
PS: I once had a player that would have tried that(troll/half-dragon if he would have thought of it.