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We recently converted a 3.5 game over to Pathfinder. One of the characters - a 3.5 pixie using Savage Species 5-level progression without Irresistible Dance- wants to go up for the Arcane Trickster prestige class. One of the prerequisites is the ability to cast an arcane spell of 2nd level or higher. A 3.5 pixie can cast permanent image, dispel magic, and detect thoughts once per day as spell-like abilities. Should these spells fulfill that prerequisite? From a story-based perspective, it seems logical that these would, but the rules are vague on this subject matter.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
In order to open up discussion further, I figured I should do some research. I've seen previous sourcebooks with outsiders, aberrations, etc. advance directly into Prestige Classes, but I've had a bit of bad luck finding an example that suits my particular situation (spells vs. spell-like abilities).
In the 3.5 sourcebook Complete Arcane p.72, I found two answers.
To paraphrase, here are my interpretations of my findings:
1) Spellcasting Level: "Able to cast 3rd level arcane spells" means you need to have advanced sufficiently in a class that casts arcane spells to understand the complexity of these spells, which a normal 1st level spellcaster would not be able to understand.
2) Specific Spell: If there is a requirement for a specific spell, spell-like abilities will suffice. For instance, "Able to cast darkness" would be satisfied by a tiefling.
I'm not certain which one applies. The Spells prerequisite is (bold emphasis mine):
Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher
.
Compare that to the Eldritch Knight prestige class:
Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
As the player, I'm biased. I would imagine that being able to cast dispel magic would count as fulfilling the "at least one" requirement.
The pixie's dispel magic is not a spell, it is a spell-like ability. Furthermore, it is neither arcane nor divine. Thus, it does not qualify as an arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Think of it like this. A spell-like ability works by having you concentrate for a second or two and then releasing the power. It's like turning on a flashlight: you don't need to know how it works, just hit the switch. Using a spell is actually understanding how to build the battery for the flashlight, and then creating light. Having a spell-like ability doesn't often get you into a PrC unless the class, as mentioned, requires a specific ability, in which case it might work. Your pixie has no idea how to prep arcane spells, he just knows how to use the magic within himself. He's the guy who can't make a battery. A wizard is the guy who can make the battery. As are sorcerers and bards.
But your GM may say otherwise, in which case have fun!
Compelling arguments, indeed. My GM's monitoring this forums, so this'll most likely give me a +2 to the Diplomacy DC to convince him otherwise. Failing that, I'll resign myself to the fact that I may have to wait until 11th level to enter the realm of Tricksters.
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So. Anyone else want to FAQ this?
“[R]equirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast… cannot be met by spell-like abilities.”
-Page 72 of Complete Arcane (3.5)
More on what you said:
“[S]pell-like abilities that generate the relevant effect meet the requirements for specific spell knowledge.”
-Also page 72 of Complete Arcane
And finally:
“For feats or prestige classes requiring a minimum caster level, creatures that use spell-like abilities… instead of spells use…their fixed caster level… to determine qualification.”
-As previous
I interpret this information as the following: if the pre-req requires you to be able to cast a specific level spell, spell-like abilities DO NOT count. If it requires a specific spell, like Darkness, it DOES count. If it requires a specific spellcasting level, then your fixed caster level DOES meet the pre-req.
So, from my understanding, your case still isn't quite covered. AT LEAST ONE 2nd level spell. Well, you got that. But it's not asking for a specific 2nd level spell, just a 2nd level spell. I think this should be FAQ'd. Just for clarification.
If it mentions the word "spell", such as in this case, you cant. If not, suge as the mage hand requirement, sla's work.
If this were legal, Drow Mystic Theurges would be amazing. Lose one level of Sorcerer-casting in exchange for eleven levels of Cleric-casting? Yes please.
You're already pretty deep into custom territory here, so it really just boils down to what the GM rules. It doesn't make a lot of sense to dig deep into RAW vs. RAI in this case because it's all based on custom implementation. You're using a 3rd edition source for a 3.5 character. Now you're trying to convert it into Pathfinder. The character is built with 3 different rule sets. I know this is true because you're using the pixie's 5 level progression. I'm not trying to be a rules Nazi - but my point is that it's already a custom Pathfinder character... striving to follow pre-req RAW/RAI correctly is fairly pointless.
That being said, the closest confirmation I could find to this ruling is here. SKR, a Pathfinder game designer, confirms here that innate spell-like abilities don't count as having actual spells, though it's for a purpose other than meeting a Prestige class per-requisite. Regardless, I think it's still sufficient enough evidence that you actually need to be able to cast the required spells to meet Arcane Trickster's requirements; spell like abilities don't work.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Cheapy with a better confirmation. Well played, sir.
What if we take out the pixie portion? I have a player wanting to play an Arcane Trickster and is playing a Musetouched Aasimar. Musetouched get Glitterdust (a 2nd level arcane spell) as a spell-like ability. Could they only take one level of sorcerer for mage hand to get that pre-req and move into Arcane Trickster with only one level of sorcerer?
I'm inclined to believe you can't, and all of this clarification makes that seem a little less balanced, but at least this way we aren't mixing systems.
Arcane trickster requires second level spells, and SLAs aren't spells. So nope! I don't even think SLAs are divine or arcane, but I'd have to do a bit more research on that first.
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Arcane trickster requires second level spells, and SLAs aren't spells. So nope! I don't even think SLAs are divine or arcane, but I'd have to do a bit more research on that first.
Bestiary, p. 304, or the PRD here, makes me think arcane by default: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."
It's still not legal to use as a prestige class prereq as spell like abilities are not spells, but I can certainly see homeruling it.
My reasoning for thinking they're neither is this, where it says
Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
Since it just resembles an arcane spell, my thinking goes that it's neither.
Thinking of it in game-world logic, these are things that you just think hard about, and then magical effects happen. You don't know why or how, it just happens. With casting a spell, you know the source is either a little miracle being granted by some otherworldly being or arcane.
I think the section you quoted is bound by the first sentence, so that's the only time they're counted as that. Of course, the thing I quoted could also be just due to the fact that it's a purely mental action, but it's still interesting that it refers to the SLA as "resembling" an arcane spell.
It's correct that SLA's are neither arcane or divine.
However, I'd like to add that AFAIK it would be possible to take arcane trickster if you had mage hand as a spell-like ability and the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells (other than mage hand). For example I think a witch3/rogue1 with minor magic talent (mage hand) could do it. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that is the case based on the mage hand prerequisite not being stated "as a spell" and SLA's generally working like spells unless otherwise noted.
I don't believe that when the devs say "cast spellname" they mean anything other than "cast spellname as a spell". Specifying that is really cumbersome, and "cast spellname" is just shorthand for it. The FAQs and the rules make it quite clear that spell-like abilities don't count as spells, and that things that require spells require actual spellcasting.
This question has come up 10 times in as many days. If that doesn't qualify as a frequently asked question, I don't know what does. Off to make a thread. Please FAQ that thread.
The rules are ambiguous on when SLA's work as spells and when they don't. That's an issue in itself, and I'll happily FAQ it. The pattern, from what I've been able to discern, is that when a feat/ability/rule refers to the word _spell_, SLA's don't count, but when they don't, they do count.
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I would say, for the purposes of Prestige Classes, a spell-like ability doesn't (normally) count when a spell is asked for.
My logic is based on the requirements for the Blackfire Adept and Riftwarden prestige classes, which specify that either spells or spell like abilities can fill their prerequisites, which most other PrC's don't specify.
you can go into eldritch knight at 2nd level but it wouldn't be worth it as you would lose out on the spell casting benefits if you didn't have a class that cast spells prior to picking it up. however u can go 1st level magus and then eldritch knight and continue to gain casting capability as a magus
At the indicated levels, an eldritch knight gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an eldritch knight, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
hope this helps
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