Hawkstar |
Hi everyone,
I thought about a new Heavy Armor Feat, for those Fighters who don't want to play a high Dex Character but not loose to much Ac, so I thought about something:
Steadfast Armor
Your Physical durability allows you to shrug of attacks that would cripple a lesser person. While wearing heavy Armor you depend more on your raw toughness, than on your Agility.
Prerequisites:
Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Con 13
Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier to AC. You still use your Dexterity modifier when calculating your Touch Ac.
What do you think, would this be playable or is it to strong, to weak ?
Hawkstar |
Yeah, your right, but i thought giving both bonuses (DEX and CON) would be to good. I thought of it more as an Armor equivalent for Weapon Finesse, which gives you the ability to change your STR Bonus to attack with your DEX Bonus if you are using a light weapon.
The Natural armor thing could be an alternative, but there again you would add 2 Attribute Bonuses to Ac which could easily be overpowered
Laurefindel |
Hi everyone,
I thought about a new Heavy Armor Feat, for those Fighters who don't want to play a high Dex Character but not loose to much Ac, so I thought about something:Steadfast Armor
Your Physical durability allows you to shrug of attacks that would cripple a lesser person. While wearing heavy Armor you depend more on your raw toughness, than on your Agility.Prerequisites:
Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Con 13Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier to AC. You still use your Dexterity modifier when calculating your Touch Ac.What do you think, would this be playable or is it to strong, to weak ?
Balance-wise, it sounds OK to me. I would stress that Dex penalties still apply to AC however; this feat shouldn't let someone to use Dex as a dump stat and get away with it.
Rationally, it seems a bid weird to be more "steadfast" in heavy armor than in no armor. I know that you imply that some of the bonuses to AC granted by a heavy armor are 'wasted' by its sheer weight and bulkiness, but that is already represented in the game by the armor check penalty and max Dex bonus. A reduction to the armor check penalty and Max Dex bonus limit that is proportional to your Con bonus may represent this concept better, but again, this would benefit only high-Dex character (which is counter-intuitive to your original intentions).
Otherwise, I think the idea behind the feat is sound and should constitute a fine houserule.
'findel
anthony Valente |
Hawkstar:
Have you thought about the feat granting some DR/- based off of the Con bonus? It would be tricky to write out and be balanced I think, but would differentiate a high Dex defense from the Steadfast defense.
Maybe something like:
"While wearing heavy armor, you gain DR1/-. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the DR increases by 1, up to your Con modifier. This DR stacks with all other forms of DR of the same type."
Not sure if it steps on the barbarian's toes by trumping their DR. But the barbarian could invest to get it too.
Laurefindel |
Hawkstar:
Have you thought about the feat granting some DR/- based off of the Con bonus? It would be tricky to write out and be balanced I think, but would differentiate a high Dex defense from the Steadfast defense.
Maybe something like:
"While wearing heavy armor, you gain DR1/-. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the DR increases by 1, up to your Con modifier. This DR stacks with all other forms of DR of the same type."Not sure if it steps on the barbarian's toes by trumping their DR. But the barbarian could invest to get it too.
Actually, I would argue that it steps on the toes or Adamentine armors. Giving DR as a feat save the fighter A LOT of $$$.
I think that the parallel between the OP's suggested feat and Weapon Finesse is a good comparative value. Both offer stat substitution with a narrow range of equipment. Steadfast Armor has Endurance as a pre-requisite, which is both limiting and fitting.
The main difference is that although heavy armors should be wearisome to wear, the system doesn't go in that level of realism (and honestly its better that way). So by RAW, having a high Con has no impact on wearing armor that the character can improve. Instead, the awkwardness of wearing an armor is already addressed in the armor's skill check penalty and max Dex bonus. Logically, this is where the feat should take effect but again, there are no Stat involved to substitute Con with.
Personnaly, I'd write something along the line of:
Steadfast Armor
Your physical endurance allows you to ignore some of the exhaustion caused by heavy armors while taking full advantage of its protective value. While others quickly tire-out, you can easily shrug-off the weariness and stay just as efficient despite all that heavy weight.
Prerequisites:
Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Con 13
Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to AC. A negative Dexterity modifier still impose a penalty to AC as normal, and you still use your Dexterity modifier for the purpose of determining Touch AC. As with the Dexterity bonus, you do not benefit from your Constitution bonus to AC when flat-footed.
KaeYoss |
T O wrote:KaeYoss wrote:Too powerful.What a thoughtful analysis.I just left out the juicy bits.
Wasn't that post longer?
Anyway, I think it's too powerful.
We already know that.
And here's why:
Got you again!
For many characters, AC is about the only really important thing they are getting out of AC. They don't care about the skills, they don't use bows. They won't cry a tear over going last in the fight, and their reflex save isn't that big to start with, and they can suck up the extra damage.
They can definetly suck up the extra damage with better con.
Those characters get to boost their AC big time and they still get to use dex as a dump stat.
One thing that should be clarified is whether there is a "max con bonus" that replaces max dex bonus. You could argue that with this all being about being a tough fella, armour encumbrance doesn't matter.
And if you use it like that, it is even worse.
anthony Valente |
anthony Valente wrote:Actually, I would argue that it steps on the toes or Adamentine armors. Giving DR as a feat save the fighter A LOT of $$$.Hawkstar:
Have you thought about the feat granting some DR/- based off of the Con bonus? It would be tricky to write out and be balanced I think, but would differentiate a high Dex defense from the Steadfast defense.
Maybe something like:
"While wearing heavy armor, you gain DR1/-. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the DR increases by 1, up to your Con modifier. This DR stacks with all other forms of DR of the same type."Not sure if it steps on the barbarian's toes by trumping their DR. But the barbarian could invest to get it too.
Adamantine wouldn't be stepped on because both sources would stack.
I think just switching Dex bonus w/ Con bonus to AC is simply too good, because it completely circumvents the Max dex bonus mechanic which supposedly keeps the various armor types in check. Having Con bonus to AC with no limitation (like Dex bonus has), might very well unbalance heavy armor, making it too good. It's not an even trade like the Weapon Finesse feat is.
Hawkstar |
@KaeYoss
I was thinking about what you wrote, and yeah i didn't say it but the Max Dex bonus should apply to your Kon Bonus to Ac.
I think its fair compared to the benefits of Weapon Finesse, which allows for example a thief to to use Str as a dump score(which they couldn't realy use for anything else but BAB) and still get a high Attack Bonus. And here it isn't even topped
I tried to give a high level Fighter a possibility to use his Full possible max Dex bonus to Ac (+5 for a Fullplate at 15th Lvl) without using all Attribute advancements on Dex.
so the full new text for the Feat would be (Thanks to Laurefindel for a better Text):
Steadfast Armor
Your physical endurance allows you to ignore some of the exhaustion caused by heavy armors while taking full advantage of its protective value. While others quickly tire-out, you can easily shrug-off the weariness and stay just as efficient despite all that heavy weight.
Prerequisites:
Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Con 13
Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to AC. A negative Dexterity modifier still impose a penalty to AC as normal, you still use your Dexterity modifier for the purpose of determining Touch AC and the maximum bonus is still determined by the Max Dex Bonus off the Armor you are using. As with the Dexterity bonus, you do not benefit from your Constitution bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Weylin |
I would not use it as a feat personally. I would make it an optional Fighter Class ability to replace Armor Training.
Instead of increasing the Max. Dex Bonus, increase the AC for the given type of armor by one starting at 3rd level and increasing every four levels thereafter. 3rd: +1 AC, 7th: +2 AC, 11th: +3 AC, 15th: +4 AC.
I would still lower the Action Penalty, as this is a person who has still learned to move well in his armor.
Where the usual Armor Training means increased overall mobility, this variant would represent someone who has an inherent knowledge of the weak spots and strong spots of the armor he is wearing and instincively moves to receive blows on the strong parts.
Would also keep the standard movement in medium armor and at 7th standard movement in heavy armor. This is someone who powers through the encumberance.
-Weylin
anthony Valente |
@KaeYoss
I was thinking about what you wrote, and yeah i didn't say it but the Max Dex bonus should apply to your Kon Bonus to Ac.
I think its fair compared to the benefits of Weapon Finesse, which allows for example a thief to to use Str as a dump score(which they couldn't realy use for anything else but BAB) and still get a high Attack Bonus. And here it isn't even toppedI tried to give a high level Fighter a possibility to use his Full possible max Dex bonus to Ac (+5 for a Fullplate at 15th Lvl) without using all Attribute advancements on Dex.
so the full new text for the Feat would be (Thanks to Laurefindel for a better Text):
Steadfast Armor
Your physical endurance allows you to ignore some of the exhaustion caused by heavy armors while taking full advantage of its protective value. While others quickly tire-out, you can easily shrug-off the weariness and stay just as efficient despite all that heavy weight.Prerequisites:
Endurance, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Con 13Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to AC. A negative Dexterity modifier still impose a penalty to AC as normal, you still use your Dexterity modifier for the purpose of determining Touch AC and the maximum bonus is still determined by the Max Dex Bonus off the Armor you are using. As with the Dexterity bonus, you do not benefit from your Constitution bonus to AC when flat-footed.
This re-write isn't that bad! The max Dex from armor training becoming a max Con bonus balances it pretty good I think, which was one of the reasons I thought it looked a bit unbalanced. I have two recommendations:
1) it might be worth considering requiring "x" fighter levels in the prerequisites, as I don't think any other classes would gain any meaningful benefit from this feat.
2) To help clean up the wording:
Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier as a bonus to AC. A negative Dexterity modifier still imposes a penalty to AC as normal, and the maximum bonus granted by this feat is still determined by the Max Dex Bonus of the Armor you are using. The benefit of this feat does not apply to your touch AC or when you are flat-footed".
fanguad |
This re-write isn't that bad! The max Dex from armor training becoming a max Con bonus balances it pretty good I think, which was one of the reasons I thought it looked a bit unbalanced. I have two recommendations:
1) it might be worth considering requiring "x" fighter levels in the prerequisites, as I don't think any other classes would gain any meaningful benefit from this feat.
2) To help clean up the wording:
Benefit:
While wearing Heavy Armor, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your...
Since you've added the restriction of Max Dex, that reduces the utility of this feat somewhat, especially if any non-fighters want to take it (without armor training, this feat kinda sucks). I wonder if you couldn't drop the restriction of heavy armor. I'm imagining a gladiator-type character wearing light armor, but for whom this feat might be appropriate.
I think a comparison to Weapon Finesse is very appropriate...
(WF = Weapon Finesse, SF = Steadfast)
WF: Dex instead of Str for attack rolls
SF: Con instead of Dex for AC
WF: Still use Str for weapon damage
SF: Still use Dex for touch AC
WF: Normally, Dex isn't used for offense
SF: Con is already used for defense (HP)
WF: Restricted to light weapons
SF: Restricted to heavy armor
Hmmm... maybe the heavy armor restriction should stay. SF already is one up over WF since Con now pulls double-duty for defense. Letting people using it with Light Armor is probably a bit much. Allowing it for Medium Armor might make it a little too good for Barbarians.
anthony Valente |
Another idea to consider: I have a copy of a Dragon magazine (I left it at a friend's house, so I can't currently site the issue #), in which an article lists alternatives bonuses that the masterwork quality can grant. One quality is having the masterwork quality of armor increase its max Dex bonus.
Just a thought, to help make this feat more beneficial to non-Fighter classes, namely the Paladin.
Pathfinder Database Pimp |
If you've got a final version of this, why not post it over at the Pathfinder Database?
Weylin |
Another idea to consider: I have a copy of a Dragon magazine (I left it at a friend's house, so I can't currently site the issue #), in which an article lists alternatives bonuses that the masterwork quality can grant. One quality is having the masterwork quality of armor increase its max Dex bonus.
Just a thought, to help make this feat more beneficial to non-Fighter classes, namely the Paladin.
The Black Company Campaign Setting from Green Ronin has a fantastic alternate masterwork system for armor and weapons beyond just +1 to hit and -1 to action penalty. Everything from adding to initimidation to extra damage to neing lighter.
-Weylin