Druid Wild Shape - Why no Beast Shape IV?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Deyvantius wrote:
hogarth wrote:


The rogue.

(Note: I'm basing my answers on my personal experience, of course.)

The Rogue? Wow, so no sneak attack damage and no magical trap finding or disabling of devices? There is no trait in core that allows Disable Device as a class skill so skill focus is going to leave you behind a true rogue ann the disable curve. So you are potentially walking into a fight with either someone having 30+ less hps (getting hit by the trap) or a healer with a few less spells (due to healing the semi-trap finder). That's some sound strategy there partner. A ranger or monk would have a better time replacing the rogue due to their evasion but the Druid? I expected someone to say mage, but rogue? I don't know man we must be gaming two entirely different ways.

I say dump the fighter. I have read here so many times that a good wizard is better then the "meatshields", as they put it. Half a dozen wands, couple of scrolls. Maybe a staff or 2. Then make the 5th guy another wizard, optimized to perfection the same way.

Not all classes fit well in every group or with all players. The topic wasnt 'how bad does the druid suck, if at all?', it was quesioning why they dont have a certian ability. When I first read the question I thought it was valid. Reading many of the replys on the topic, it kinda makes sense now. The best part is no one used numbers in the defence of their position!


James Jacobs wrote:


Animals are creatures that are "realistic." Most exist in the real world or have existed in the real world. There are some exceptions, like the roc or the goblin dog; these would have once been "beasts" because they're fantasy animals... but doing so put them out of a druid's reach which made no sense.

The Roc remains out of the Druids reach. As do Dire Crocodiles, Dire Sharks, the T-Rex and more due to Druids maxing out at Huge sized animals.

It would have been nice to see a high level Druid feat that would have made gargantuan animals a possibility for an advanced wildshape...


Huh. Yeah. In the Beta, I could wildshape into a T-Rex, and there didn't really seem to be many (or any) gargantuan animals to shape into. Looks like I'm going to be sticking with the elephant for trample like I was already doing.

Of course, the main reason I didn't bother with T-Rex was that my bite damage would be the same as if I turned into something else huge with more attacks, since the T-Rex's bite damage was derived in part from Improved Natural Attack, and feats don't carry over.


Disciple of Sakura wrote:

Huh. Yeah. In the Beta, I could wildshape into a T-Rex, and there didn't really seem to be many (or any) gargantuan animals to shape into. Looks like I'm going to be sticking with the elephant for trample like I was already doing.

Of course, the main reason I didn't bother with T-Rex was that my bite damage would be the same as if I turned into something else huge with more attacks, since the T-Rex's bite damage was derived in part from Improved Natural Attack, and feats don't carry over.

I'm just starting to evaluate this stuff in detail, but my suggestion to you would be to lower yourself a size category and look at the Rhino (Wooly) if you are looking for 1 really good attack.

Thats a 4d8 natural attack, if you take Vital Strike (and why not, you're attacking 1/round anyways) that's 8d8 (+Str) - that's some good damage.

You don't get powerful charge - but still...that's a lot of d8's before Str bonus.

When you can change into Huge elementals - remember that the Elder elementals are Huge and therefore are fair game. An Elder Earth Elemental is going to net you a +8 str, +6 NA for example. Better bonuses than elephant.

Hmmm...just noticed that Elemental Body: Earth elemental grants you the push ability...however, that ability doesn't seem to exist on the Earth Elemental description in Pathfinder.

In 3.5, the Push ability gave Earth Elementals the ability to Bull Rush without provoking an attack of opportunity. I suppose that's what it does.


Treantmonk wrote:


Hmmm...just noticed that Elemental Body: Earth elemental grants you the push ability...however, that ability doesn't seem to exist on the Earth Elemental description in Pathfinder.

In 3.5, the Push ability gave Earth Elementals the ability to Bull Rush without provoking an attack of opportunity. I suppose that's what it does.

I noticed this a while back and posted so. That have given them improved bullrush as a bonus feat, which is the equivilant of push anyways, but now actually gives them a bonus. I so would prefer the new push, but oh well.

Question is though, could you get greater bull rush using improved bullrush from being in elemental earth form as the prerequisite.


Lael Treventhius wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:


Hmmm...just noticed that Elemental Body: Earth elemental grants you the push ability...however, that ability doesn't seem to exist on the Earth Elemental description in Pathfinder.

In 3.5, the Push ability gave Earth Elementals the ability to Bull Rush without provoking an attack of opportunity. I suppose that's what it does.

I noticed this a while back and posted so. That have given them improved bullrush as a bonus feat, which is the equivilant of push anyways, but now actually gives them a bonus. I so would prefer the new push, but oh well.

Question is though, could you get greater bull rush using improved bullrush from being in elemental earth form as the prerequisite.

yes, if you had all the other pre-reqs, but it would only function in that form.

You could use wild shape to qualify for power attack, but you can't use it if your str is under 13.


hogarth wrote:
Beast Shape IV doesn't give any new animal forms; those are all covered by Beast Shape I-III. But it would still be useful to get access to the Rend special ability or 120' flight speed, I suppose.

Agreed. It would be nice if there was some way for Druids to acquire an add-in for their missing animal abilities, such as Rend and Death Roll. Allowing the form you've already turned into to perform inherent actions intrinsic to its shape (AFTER you've already filled out the Beast Shape progression) seems reasonable. Perhaps a new 10th level ability, or 11th level feat, something like Improved Form Mastery adding one extradordinary ability or attack form not already listed to the form, followed by Greater Form Mastery, allowing all the missing tricks?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deyvantius wrote:

Come on man it doesn't take that long to reach lvl 20 nor is it necessary to play every level before evaluating a class. In my current gaming group, I have played a Druid for quite some time now (Every Sunday since GenCon) and I can speak from personal experience the class lags behind the others. I'm having a a hell of a fun time playing him, but he is no match for the other guys even with my great stats.

Mileage does vary. My spouse absolutely rocks with his Flame Druid. He's infamous for leaving no opera house standing in any city he's visited.

Scarab Sages

I am playing a druid currently and I have a Roc for my animal companion. I am level 6 and don't find myself feeling like a lesser character in anyway. My animal companion is the tankiest one in the group often having an AC of 28 and that is only with Barkskin and no other defensive buffs. My druid uses produce flame and flameblade to devastating effect. Touch AC attacks all day long. When I wildshape I out damage everyone but our barbarian but that is all he can do. While I do like most of a druid's spells, I do concede that compared to a cleric or a wizard their spells tend to be not as good.


TomasMurdoc wrote:
I am playing a druid currently and I have a Roc for my animal companion. I am level 6 and don't find myself feeling like a lesser character in anyway. My animal companion is the tankiest one in the group often having an AC of 28 and that is only with Barkskin and no other defensive buffs. My druid uses produce flame and flameblade to devastating effect. Touch AC attacks all day long. When I wildshape I out damage everyone but our barbarian but that is all he can do. While I do like most of a druid's spells, I do concede that compared to a cleric or a wizard their spells tend to be not as good.

Are you sure you aren't actually a necromancer instead of a druid? Seeing as how the majority of this thread is from 2009 (with 2 posts in 2013) that is some mighty powerful necromantic magics being thrown around.


Jeraa wrote:
TomasMurdoc wrote:
I am playing a druid currently and I have a Roc for my animal companion. I am level 6 and don't find myself feeling like a lesser character in anyway. My animal companion is the tankiest one in the group often having an AC of 28 and that is only with Barkskin and no other defensive buffs. My druid uses produce flame and flameblade to devastating effect. Touch AC attacks all day long. When I wildshape I out damage everyone but our barbarian but that is all he can do. While I do like most of a druid's spells, I do concede that compared to a cleric or a wizard their spells tend to be not as good.
Are you sure you aren't actually a necromancer instead of a druid? Seeing as how the majority of this thread is from 2009 (with 2 posts in 2013) that is some mighty powerful necromantic magics being thrown around.

Its funny to see people from back then actually thinking Druids are weak though. Insisting that a Fighter or Rogue is irreplaceable, no less.

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