What the deal with increaseing the number of negative levels on Raise Dead?
What the deal with increaseing the number of negative levels on Raise Dead?
They're negative levels, as opposed to lost levels. Therefore curable. It's actually a much smaller penalty.
They're negative levels, as opposed to lost levels. Therefore curable. It's actually a much smaller penalty.
Uhm no, not curable. It says that they are permanent.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell gains two *permanent* negative levels when it is raised, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature.
They're negative levels, as opposed to lost levels. Therefore curable. It's actually a much smaller penalty.Uhm no, not curable. It says that they are permanent.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell gains two *permanent* negative levels when it is raised, just as if it had been hit by an energy-draining creature.
Some abilities and spells (such as raise dead) bestow permanent level drain on a creature. These are treated just like temporary negative levels, but they do not allow a new save each day to remove them. Level drain can be removed through spells like restoration. Permanent negative levels remain after a dead creature is restored to life. A creature whose permanent negative levels equal its Hit Dice cannot be brought back to life through spells like raise dead and resurrection without also receiving a restoration spell, cast the round after it is restored to life.
Uhm no, not curable. It says that they are permanent.
In the same sense as a "permanent" spell duration. They persist until removed by another effect (generally the restoration spell); temporary negative levels have a daily saving throw to vanish on their own.
Edit: Sniped!
Just to be completely pedantic, it says in the Restoration spell that the cost of restoring a permanent negative level is a diamond worth 1000 gp. Just to give you an idea of the cost. :]
Kyrt: well... to be honest, that's called "a penalty for death." ;)
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Kyrt: well... to be honest, that's called "a penalty for death." ;)
There's penalizing someone for dying, then there's making the game harder than it already is.
You have to remember the gold lost to pay for that means resurrecting a character and returning them to normal is 7000 gold.
5000 for the ritual and an additional 2000 for the restorations to remove those levels. That's also IF a party member casts it. If not then there is another (roughly) 400 gold cost to pay someone to remove them FOR you per casting.
That's a lot of gold that suddenly doesn't count for wealth by level. And its going to be hard to catch up because of it.
There's nothing wrong with making death hurt. I go for the permanent loss being permanent, until they level up again. Though they only lose 1 level.
Gold, who cares. That doesn't hurt enough.
So ... basically leveling up just to get rid of the negative levels first?
I.E. - you are sticking with permanent level drain of TWO levels.
I -THINK- the idea was that one would no longer have those negative lvls AND THEN get your new lvl?
I -THINK- the idea was that one would no longer have those negative lvls AND THEN get your new lvl?There's nothing wrong with making death hurt. I go for the permanent loss being permanent, until they level up again. Though they only lose 1 level.
Gold, who cares. That doesn't hurt enough.
So ... basically leveling up just to get rid of the negative levels first?
I.E. - you are sticking with permanent level drain of TWO levels.
Sorry... removed my post as it was not really conveying what I was thinking.
Sorry... removed my post as it was not really conveying what I was thinking.I -THINK- the idea was that one would no longer have those negative lvls AND THEN get your new lvl?There's nothing wrong with making death hurt. I go for the permanent loss being permanent, until they level up again. Though they only lose 1 level.
Gold, who cares. That doesn't hurt enough.
So ... basically leveling up just to get rid of the negative levels first?
I.E. - you are sticking with permanent level drain of TWO levels.
Well im pretty sure it goes like this
Bob the 7 lvl fighter comes along and some stoned golem sits down on him by accident.
He then gets revived costing him a fortune :/ ! But otherwise "only" looses ...
QUOTE:
"cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls,
combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense,
saving throws, and skill checks (per negative level) . In addition, the creature
reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative
level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level
lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as
spellcasting)"
But not two REAL levels.
When Bob goes up a lvl he gets whats coming to him and gets rid of those nasty penalties :)
Would that be about right azhrei_fje/Lewy ? :)
In 3.5 - if you died... you lost one level. This could hurt... but if the DM was generous enough you could eventually "just" catch back up with the rest of the party.
I used to reward experience based on the level of the PC. Lower level PC's could gain more experience than their higher level brethren. Correctly done against certain enemies they might be the only ones to gain experience. My players would make use of this and hunt out opponents for just that reason.
Under some DM's though, that single level loss could indeed be deadly as you just could not cope with the higher challenge encounters. Under those DM's a 2 level loss would indeed prove a death sentence for the character and you'd almost be better bringing in a new PC at the other players level. (If allowed!)
Under Pathfinder however... if you allow the negative levels to be curable, then eventually the PC's could do a few side quests (and extra role-play) to gain sufficient funds to restore their comrade to full strength.
At lower levels... death is permanent for most PC's. However once the option of bringing characters back to life is feasible. You could use the opportunity for further role-play.
Depending on the experience progression you are using, there is plenty of room to gain extra experience and gaining a little extra gold is not going to hurt as long as you mostly match wealth by level for the group.
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Sorry... removed my post as it was not really conveying what I was thinking.I -THINK- the idea was that one would no longer have those negative lvls AND THEN get your new lvl?There's nothing wrong with making death hurt. I go for the permanent loss being permanent, until they level up again. Though they only lose 1 level.
Gold, who cares. That doesn't hurt enough.
So ... basically leveling up just to get rid of the negative levels first?
I.E. - you are sticking with permanent level drain of TWO levels.
Well im pretty sure it goes like this
Bob the 7 lvl fighter comes along and some stoned golem sits down on him by accident.
He then gets revived costing him a fortune :/ ! But otherwise "only" looses ...
QUOTE:
"cumulative –1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls,
combat maneuver checks, Combat Maneuver Defense,
saving throws, and skill checks (per negative level) . In addition, the creature
reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative
level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level
lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as
spellcasting)"But not two REAL levels.
When Bob goes up a lvl he gets whats coming to him and gets rid of those nasty penalties :)
Would that be about right azhrei_fje/Lewy ? :)
More for my game, having got sat on by the golem (love the scenario by the way, he'd certainly Bob after!) then he'd be 6th level. Half way to 7th.
It places him just behind the others but not so far that he can't catch that back up over time. I also record the xp amount at the point and a restoration spell will get Bob back to his original xp total once cast.
As for gold, if there's expensive material components, sure they'll need those. Always fleece the players!
This certainly works in my game. Having said that I've always played level drain as permanent (boy players fear undead!), though I have incorporated into this the 3rd Ed change to give a save first. In 1st and 2nd ed they didn't even get that. Again a restoration would work the same.
I'm also going to be using the "they're permanent until you next level" house-rule.
Death in 3.5 required you to un-make your character and drop behind in XP, both being a pain in the a*** for DM and player.
Pathfinder, so you have some minus 1's until you level, that'll be why you want to avoid death.
Death needs to hurt, and be avoided. As RAW in PF, death is just a few gold pieces of irritation, which is, imo and by the looks of this thread others too, not enough hurt.
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Death needs to hurt, and be avoided. As RAW in PF, death is just a few gold pieces of irritation, which is, imo and by the looks of this thread others too, not enough hurt.
its worth noting that RAW under Pathfinder RPG rules, you can only magically restore one "permanent" level loss due to death and raising, at a time - in fact you can only restore one per week.
Thus even if you happened to have the coinage on hand and diamonds to cast both raise dead and restoration on the spot, you'll still have to continue questing with that 1 "permanent" level loss for one week's adventure time; and with the 10 minute adventuring model still often in effect - that's alot of potential encounters.
So it still does hurt.
So it's alot like someone said - you work off you lost level then you level up and get the lost level back at the same time. However in this case, you can level up 4 levels theoretically in one week's time (depending on the amount of power gaming that is going on) and still have that negative level in effect; until a week has past and a second Restoration can be cast.
Robert
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Alot of the comments about death needing to hurt reminds me of something James Jacobs posted not too long ago, where essentially some of his opinions had been skewed by too much time behind the screen. He'd recently reevaluated some of his previous ideas after he'd taken some time to be a player again and realized how much not fun it is to have a character die, or be out of the game for any length of time.
Death is death, this isn't WoW where you toss a bit of gold at a vendor and shrug about the wipe. Death should be permanent typically my group gives 2 options on penalty. -1 con everytime your rez'd or -1 level every time your rez'd. I seriously doubt we will adopt new " restoration lawl " rule, death is MENT to be a big deal. In fact i believe my friend and i(both DM's) pretty much agree'd that wouldn't be a whole lot of raise dead spells available, players would NEVER have access to it directly and would have to be a big frikkin' deal to even allow players to be brought back.
Death should mean something, we have noticed significantly that players play smarter...in compensation we are using 4e rule for negative hp. meaning you do have 1/4 of your max hp in negative numbers before you truely expire its worked well.
no don't have to agree with me just making a point... if you die shouldn't be a shrug your shoulders event, it should carry a toll and a big penalty personally not one for level drains as i find that effect to weird for my tastes, permanent stat loss, some weird dehabilitating effect are lots of ways to do it...but simply saying *raise dead, restoration* your fixed at first sign of a death is just silly... imagine if in dragon lance when flint died, just *raise dead, restoration* him back from the dead! how pointless would that have made battle?
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Death is death, this isn't WoW where you toss a bit of gold at a vendor and shrug about the wipe. Death should be permanent typically my group gives 2 options on penalty. -1 con everytime your rez'd or -1 level every time your rez'd. I seriously doubt we will adopt new " restoration lawl " rule, death is MENT to be a big deal. In fact i believe my friend and i(both DM's) pretty much agree'd that wouldn't be a whole lot of raise dead spells available, players would NEVER have access to it directly and would have to be a big frikkin' deal to even allow players to be brought back.
Death should mean something, we have noticed significantly that players play smarter...in compensation we are using 4e rule for negative hp. meaning you do have 1/4 of your max hp in negative numbers before you truely expire its worked well.
no don't have to agree with me just making a point... if you die shouldn't be a shrug your shoulders event, it should carry a toll and a big penalty personally not one for level drains as i find that effect to weird for my tastes, permanent stat loss, some weird dehabilitating effect are lots of ways to do it...but simply saying *raise dead, restoration* your fixed at first sign of a death is just silly... imagine if in dragon lance when flint died, just *raise dead, restoration* him back from the dead! how pointless would that have made battle?
Considering the resources and the amount of time it takes putting in for it and its hard enough as it is. Saying "Restoration Lawl" doesn't actually cover the situation at all. First off, you have to purchase diamonds worth a certain amount, then you have to have a divine caster spend ten minutes casting the spell. Up until true resurrection you have to at the very least have the body, which could be a problem. If the body is destroyed resurrection only works if you have a part of that body.
At that point you're paying so much it could very well be bankrupting to bring back a character. If that's the case, most players will just say "Screw this I'm making a new one anyways".
And I would not say building a new character is punishing enough. I mean think about it, he has to sit out at most the rest of the night. Imagine f this occurred in the first hour. If you're lucky he'll be sitting out for an HOUR before he finally is ready to play again.
Death is punishing enough. Its when DM's screw the rules and throw money at the players that it becomes trivial.
imagine if in dragon lance when flint died, just *raise dead, restoration* him back from the dead! how pointless would that have made battle?
You can't really apply the same rules for a dramatic novel to a game, while similar in many aspects, D&D is still a game and can still be 'unfun.'
Few months ago, our 5th level group is in a fight with a large orc raiding party. Fight is nearly over, it's been rough for most of the party but my pally has been able to go through nearly unscathed due to alot of luck. Still mounted with a path to the orc leader now opened up, he uses the superior movement of the horse to close but misses his attacks. Next initiative is the Orc leader, DM rolls 20...confirm 20...now its a mortal threat...20! The Orc leader pulled him out of the saddle and cut his throat as he struggled to get up.
In this case what's the need to make that character be penalized? The character was a major part of the plot, that's now gone if I decide not to bring him back, not only hurting the DM's storyline for that adventure, but making a low level character gimped if we keep alot of penalties (he had high level allies willing to help him as he was key to certain events). He was also the first character to die that campaign so it came out of left field. All of our characters fear death, they all understand that there's no guaranteed resurrection waiting on them and we certainly roleplay that fear of the unknown. Also there's that distinct hit the pride of your character when one goes down, they're not invincible, they can die, etc. My entire group would agree with me when I say it sucks when characters die, but not for any mechanical reasons, its just an inherent hit to the history of that character. Other groups may not look on it that way, but I would say that many agree. Character death doesn't need to be some large weight to drag the game down for players.