So, in the "Pathfinderize D20 Modern" thread, James states the following:
One of the problems with d20 Modern is that it doesn't know what kind of game it wants to be. Is it a modern-day spy game? An apocalyptic game? A space opera game? With Pathfinder and D&D, there's an implied world and setting behind the rules, and that allows the game itself more focus and more detail.
I'm pretty sure that if we do a modern or sci-fi game, we'll not take the "generic" approach. We won't try to build a game that could be rules for ANY setting... the SRD already does that, actually. It'd be best if a sci-fi/modern game picks its world and presents rules for that specific world, I think.
Assuming James' prediction holds true, what implied setting would YOU want Paizo to do?
My Preferences:
Genre: Science-fiction (specifically: magic-free space opera)
Influences/Implied Setting Sources:
(New) Battlestar Galactica
Lost
Firefly
Mass Effect (sans psionics or with psionics as an optional rule)
Dead Space
Babylon 5
Alien & Aliens (nothing after)
Predator (nothing after)
Blade Runner
Tech:
1. Interstellar Spacecraft (with thrusters/engines - not Star Trek-style nacelles)
2. Interstellar society with aliens (again, more Mass Effect - less Star Wars/Star Trek)
3. Robots
4. Artificial Gravity
5. Near-AI capable computers (optionally, rules for AI PCs/NPCs)
6. Cyberware (lower end of the scale vs. full-body cyborgs)
7. Genetic Engineering/Bioware
8. Artificial life (mutated humans/animals, biological androids)
NO MAGIC!!!
Things to Avoid:
1. Star Wars-style science fantasy. Star Wars cinematic adventure is ok, just not so over-the-top.
2. Star Trek preachiness and uber-tech (no transporters, warp 23,etc.)
3. The Uber-gun or Uber-armor that causes every party to be outfitted in the same fashion.
4. MAGIC!! NO!!
Give me a setting that can handle interstellar war, interstellar trade, noir, gritty horror. Basically, a PG-13 treatment like what's been done with Golarion.
d20 Firefly!!!!!!!
Maybe some aliens, but more Alien Aliens, not Star Trek Aliens.
Biotech ships.
No FTL, or FTL with consequences, like time dilation, etc.
Western/Noir.
No God-like powers through technology.
Lots of biotech.
Maybe CJ Cherryh-style aliens (Chanur, Foreigner, etc.)
Anything not in anway similar to Firefly/Serenity or BSG would be great, as all of those shows/movies were atrocities. I'd prefer something more Steampunk, with space vessels driven by some nonsensical method such as steam or solar radiation.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Despite James' statement, I think this would be the wrong way to go. The modern/sci-fi RPG doesn't have as large of an audience as it is, and to pick one implied setting only would, I think, limit sales.
One of the things that I've always loved about D20 Modern is that it was a toolbox system that adapted well to many settings, modular rulesets, and game styles. I've used it to play secret agent style games, zombie apocolapse, and a D20 Modern version of Fallout, not to mention a few sessions with the Urbana Arcana setting.
If Paizo were to pick just one setting, say space opera, that wouldn't interest me enough to buy it, no matter how great of a job Paizo did - I'd probably stick with the existing D20 Modern then for a variety of settings.
I'm pretty happy with most of the options I already have through other systems, so I'd say only the following:
Generic space opera
Post-apocalyptic
Agents... (X-Files, James Bond, Cthulhu)
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Genre: Science-fiction (specifically: magic-free space opera)
Influences/Implied Setting Sources:
(New) Battlestar Galactica
Lost
Firefly
Mass Effect (sans psionics or with psionics as an optional rule)
Dead Space
Babylon 5
Alien & Aliens (nothing after)
Predator (nothing after)
Blade Runner
what ? No Pitch Black ?
No Dead Space ?Otherwise, I'd agree with your list. Just what I'd like
But I have hopes that Sinister will eventually deliver their two sci-fi books soon, even I am wary about their actual release date.
Also, I enquired recently about Rogue Trader.
Cheers
Genre: Science-fiction (specifically: magic-free space opera)
Influences/Implied Setting Sources:
(New) Battlestar Galactica
Lost
Firefly
Mass Effect (sans psionics or with psionics as an optional rule)
Dead Space
Babylon 5
Alien & Aliens (nothing after)
Predator (nothing after)
Blade Runner
what ? No Pitch Black ?
No Dead Space ?Otherwise, I'd agree with your list. Just what I'd like
But I have hopes that Sinister will eventually deliver their two sci-fi books soon, even I am wary about their actual release date.
Also, I enquired recently about Rogue Trader.
Cheers
Well OF COURSE Pitch Black! (And Dead Space is there!)
Can't believe that I forgot to list Halo, especially after ODST-goodness. Also System Shock 2.
And I agree, I'm really interested to see what Sinister does with their sci-fi books. 'Course I'd like to wait a lot less...
Actually, none.
I want it to be able to handle spy games. And Dresden files like modern phantasy. And Masquerade-like Vampire hunts. And so much more.
Ideally, the Pathfinder Modern would be a modular sandbox, allowing Modern, Past, and Future campaigns of all kinds of stripes. I REALLY love the idea of Strong Hero, Fast Hero, etc. I also like the Starting Occupations idea to flesh out the character concepts. I'd want more Talent Trees for the base classes (right now, a Strong Hero with an average Dex is a better ranged combatant than a Fast Hero with a high Dex. Does that seem right to you?).
Maybe change the rules a bit to give Strong Heroes Good BAB for melee & CMB and Medium BAB for ranged & CMD, and give Fast Heroes Medium BAB for melee & CMB and Good BAB for ranged and CMD. And maybe a rule for Tough Heroes where their BAB increases from Medium to Good if they're at less than half their hit points?
RPG Superstar 2013
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I think you'd definetly have to have separate sets of rules for a farther future game and a true modern game.
Several years ago, I adapted Alternity (Dark Matter) and some home-brewed d20 Modern rules (they weren't out yet) for a very Fringe/X-Files campaign with a very heavy plot. Probably the most work I've done on a campaign pre-game or during the game. I think the DND basic rules we used fit in well and we had little trouble adapting to paladins and assasins with guns.
However, a far future game (admittedly, a low-tech space-travel game seems best for power creep) would require different rules for how people survive things, heal woulds, get from a to b, and more. Unless you just want to port the Pathfinder system over and rename 'repeating crossbow' to 'semiautomatic side arm'.
But I prefer different systems with different rules. I prefer Pathfinder as a base to work out a system for modern or post-modern play, and also a different system for space-opera play.
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I don't know if a modern product would be a Paizo-required product, or if a third party would be better to provide the various options. I have enjoyed Dragonstar, Spellslinger, and MC's World of Darkness (not to mention Palladium's Rifts..). I've actually taken the Pathfinder rules, and used them to adapt the Steampunk setting from an old Dragon magazine, as well as set PF in modern setting using the "Greyhawk 2000" and MC's WoD information.
The problem lies in trying to put something out there that would satisfy everyone who is looking for a "non-medieval" setting. There's too many options. If Paizo did decide to do a modern setting-specific, I think it would have to try to accomodate various "moods" and settings to be successful. Perhaps split the book up into sections: classes, tech/magic options, setting1 (victoriana/steampunk), setting2 (Y2K era), setting3 (space exploration). Have the book itself fully compatible with the PF rules will allow it to be a supplement, and GMs can refer to the core book and bestiary for race options and other nuts-and-bolts.
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Two "settings" I'd be most interested in would be..
1) Buffy-esque. Monsters & magic in modern day with a select few knowing about it while the rest of the world is blind to it.
2) Zombie Apocalypse. Enough said.
Zombies is easy enough to do with apocalypse rules and if post-apocalypse settings were to be made, it's just a variant ruleset of nuclear fallout. HOWEVER to ignore the buffy-like genre is a bad idea IMHO.
Hey - could a magic HEAVY space opera be marketed to Spelljammer fans?Have you seen Fantasy-Flight's "Dragonstar" setting? Magic and technology mixed together.
Pity that Fantasy Flight had to drop the product (Mind Flayers were intergral to the setting. :( )
I would like to see either a post apocolyptic setting ala Gamma World or a sowrds and planets setting ala Iron Lords of Jupiter.
Lords Of Jupiter from Dungeon was Awesome!
I do not own it myself so I'm not sure how well it'd work... but...
How well would BESM D20 revised convert to the Pathfinder Ruleset?
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While he says it can't be "generic", I don't see how the setting choosen CAN'T be at least mostly generic, or mainly "kitchen sink". It needs to have rules for things people might want, but the modularity to drop those same things for people who don't want them. While magic is probably right out, psionics of some stripe (as well as aliens and magic-like super-science) probably need to be in the core setting. Those who don't want those elements should be able to drop them entirely for their home games.
Likewise, tech should be tiered, so that you can "fine tune" your home setting by adjusting the tech level. The core assumption should have blasters and FTL, but by tuning the tech down you should be able to use the same set of rules for post-apocolyptic, x-files, or modern mercs.
Modularity should go both ways, so those who want "elves in spaaaaace" should be able to port what they want over from PRPG/other d20 OGL stuff to make their own homebrewed Spelljammer.
Now, if I had to pick an implied setting there can be only one:
Omega World!!
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Personally I'd like to see them adopt my 'Samurai in Space' setting. It can handle intrigue-heavy conspiracies, and also "kicking alien butt" scenarios, with equal aplomb.
However, Paizo are the masters of fluff. If they put their collective heads together and come up with a modern/future setting, I can guarantee it will be much better than anything we can suggest.
Provided it includes samurai in there somewhere ...
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I struggle to see a society that resists change building spaceships and reaching out to the stars. Of course, if you started with samurai, then removed the ancestor worship and added a sense of an all-powerful, cosmic force, you could...
..oh. Never mind.
I started with a bunch of dirt poor but information rich colonists on Alpha Centauri, visited by a bunch of aliens who needed some proxies in a space war. The colonists decided that a faux medieval Japanese set of social mores "corrected" by modern theory on group dynamics might enable them to win the specific war in question when others had failed.
As a result, resisting change isn't an issue, as the technology was gifted to them, and any technological development wouldn't kick in ntil the war had been won or lost.
Ancestor worship encourages the current generation, as the ancestors pledged the honour of themselves and their descendants when they vowed to defeat the enemy.
All-powerful cosmic force? I have no idea what you mean, unless you mean midi-chlorians, which have no place in the setting. In fact, if you think Jedi and samurai are in any way related then we'd both be better off not communicating further.
Anyway, never mind.
Two "settings" I'd be most interested in would be..
1) Buffy-esque. Monsters & magic in modern day with a select few knowing about it while the rest of the world is blind to it.
2) Zombie Apocalypse. Enough said.
Zombies is easy enough to do with apocalypse rules and if post-apocalypse settings were to be made, it's just a variant ruleset of nuclear fallout. HOWEVER to ignore the buffy-like genre is a bad idea IMHO.
I played in 2 games just like those.
We did the Zombie Apocalypse first. The baddies weren't just zombies; there were also evil biker gangs from the Road Warrior. I played a Tough Hero who was a former firefighter/EMT, so he was able to provide some healing and was an excellent driver (like Kramer on the back of the firetruck!). I used a fireman's ax against zombies.
We did the Buffy thing too. But instead of being perky teenaged girls, we were celibate priests from a secret society based out of the Vatican. One of the most memorable battles in any setting was when we got bushwhacked in a private plane. 3 unarmed PCs versus 3 guntoting baddies of equal or higher level on a battle grid that was 1 square by 8--and that included the pilot's seat! I played a Dedicated Hero with an 18 in Int and Wis, a surgeon and Jesuit priest who kept Uzis in his medical bags.
The reason that d20 Modern is in the state that it is is that it tried to be 'everything to everyone'. I salute Mr Jacobs for deciding to take a step away from that.
While I'd bend over backwards and do many other things for Paizo to do a Pathfinder Modern, I agree it would need to appeal to a specific market rather than trying to be a Generic modular system. There's really nothing to stop someone from taking the current PFRPG system and bending it to their homebrew. Sure, there's no classes and races and the like. With the Bestiary, there's plenty of rules for making your own.
To put forth my opinion, which I believe to be the purpose of this thread to begin with, I'd like to weigh in favor of "Crunchy Sci-fi" on one hand, and "Science fantasy" on the other. I like both almost equally, and it really depends on my current mood which I prefer more. I adore the hard sci-fi of Asimov and his generation. I also have a serious geek-on for Spelljammer.
I will not be holding my breath for such a product, as Paizo has their hands full currently. And I'd rather they not bite off more than they can chew. The quality is astounding, and I want to see that level continue.
Thanks for starting this thread, and for being so coherent about it.
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I would love to see a Rifts style game using the Pathfinder rules.The idea of dimensional rifts were used in at least one d20 game, in MC's WoD, throw in some robotic armor, cyborgs, space ships, a few alien races, make it completely compatible with PfRPG and you have a setting that could allow for nearly any style of game. d20 Modern tried, but didn't quite pull it off. One of the things my group didn't like about d20 modern was the lack of actual classes at 1st level. None of us liked the fast hero, smart hero, that just feels too generic. Plus we almost never use prestige classes, so waiting till higher levels to be the class you want to be kind of put most of my group off of the game.
I spend a small fortune on Rifts books and if I my group could play the same type of games using our default system, I could save a lot of money.
I'd also like to see a zombie, supers, steampunk and pulp setting. My primary concern would be that any other genre would have to the same rules and not just be "compatible". I want to be able to use materials from PfRPG product X in product Y without any conversion or modification. If I want to create a mixed genre game where one player is a modern super, another is a fantasy fighter, some one is an alien bounty hunter and someone else is a cyborg, they can all work under exactly the same rules. I would like the rules and power levels of the PC's to be as equal as possible.
I know that if anyone can make this work it is Paizo.
It just occurred to me that the other settings, classes, etc could be released as a subscription like the PF Companions and Adventure Paths. A quarterly line of 100 pg books called Pathfinder Alternatives, or something much cooler, could be much better than actual full blown rule books. Each issue could focus on certain a certain setting, you could subscribe or only buy the issues that pertain to the settings you want.
I would like to see either a post apocolyptic setting ala Gamma World or a sowrds and planets setting ala Iron Lords of Jupiter.Lords Of Jupiter from Dungeon was Awesome!
Anyone know which issue that was in?
Anyone know which issue that was in?I would like to see either a post apocolyptic setting ala Gamma World or a sowrds and planets setting ala Iron Lords of Jupiter.Lords Of Jupiter from Dungeon was Awesome!Dungeon Issue #101
Polyhedron #160
Who actually owns the rights to that setting? :/
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I would assume Wizards does.Who actually owns the rights to that setting? :/Anyone know which issue that was in?I would like to see either a post apocolyptic setting ala Gamma World or a sowrds and planets setting ala Iron Lords of Jupiter.Lords Of Jupiter from Dungeon was Awesome!Dungeon Issue #101
Polyhedron #160
I believe that to be the case as well. Mainly because the fine print at the bottem of the page says "...Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and are used by Paizo Publishing under license."
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I would love to see a Rifts style game using the Pathfinder rules.The idea of dimensional rifts were used in at least one d20 game, in MC's WoD, throw in some robotic armor, cyborgs, space ships, a few alien races, make it completely compatible with PfRPG and you have a setting that could allow for nearly any style of game. d20 Modern tried, but didn't quite pull it off. One of the things my group didn't like about d20 modern was the lack of actual classes at 1st level. None of us liked the fast hero, smart hero, that just feels too generic. Plus we almost never use prestige classes, so waiting till higher levels to be the class you want to be kind of put most of my group off of the game.
I spend a small fortune on Rifts books and if I my group could play the same type of games using our default system, I could save a lot of money.
I'd also like to see a zombie, supers, steampunk and pulp setting. My primary concern would be that any other genre would have to the same rules and not just be "compatible". I want to be able to use materials from PfRPG product X in product Y without any conversion or modification. If I want to create a mixed genre game where one player is a modern super, another is a fantasy fighter, some one is an alien bounty hunter and someone else is a cyborg, they can all work under exactly the same rules. I would like the rules and power levels of the PC's to be as equal as possible.
I know that if anyone can make this work it is Paizo.
It just occurred to me that the other settings, classes, etc could be released as a subscription like the PF Companions and Adventure Paths. A quarterly line of 100 pg books called Pathfinder Alternatives, or something much cooler, could be much better than actual full blown rule books. Each issue could focus on certain a certain setting, you could subscribe or only buy the issues that pertain to the settings you want.
+1
The best setting would be somewhere in the near future, ala cyber punk setting. Just like a fantasy has a close tie to ancient earth, a future setting should parallel it as well. The other key is establishing some type of techology timeline, so you could have modern espionage with a hint of high tech, post apocalyptic, occult, or farther in the future with cyber implants, psionics, jump gates, etc.
Per a monster manual you can bring in aliens, magical creatures, etc.
I believe space opera would be some type of advance guide when you start talking about world jumping, space ships and going between universes.
I loved the concept of Rifts. I loved the setting. I loved the character...+1I would love to see a Rifts style game using the Pathfinder rules.The idea of dimensional rifts were used in at least one d20 game, in MC's WoD, throw in some robotic armor, cyborgs, space ships, a few alien races, make it completely compatible with PfRPG and you have a setting that could allow for nearly any style of game. d20 Modern tried, but didn't quite pull it off. One of the things my group didn't like about d20 modern was the lack of actual classes at 1st level. None of us liked the fast hero, smart hero, that just feels too generic. Plus we almost never use prestige classes, so waiting till higher levels to be the class you want to be kind of put most of my group off of the game.
I spend a small fortune on Rifts books and if I my group could play the same type of games using our default system, I could save a lot of money.
I'd also like to see a zombie, supers, steampunk and pulp setting. My primary concern would be that any other genre would have to the same rules and not just be "compatible". I want to be able to use materials from PfRPG product X in product Y without any conversion or modification. If I want to create a mixed genre game where one player is a modern super, another is a fantasy fighter, some one is an alien bounty hunter and someone else is a cyborg, they can all work under exactly the same rules. I would like the rules and power levels of the PC's to be as equal as possible.
I know that if anyone can make this work it is Paizo.
It just occurred to me that the other settings, classes, etc could be released as a subscription like the PF Companions and Adventure Paths. A quarterly line of 100 pg books called Pathfinder Alternatives, or something much cooler, could be much better than actual full blown rule books. Each issue could focus on certain a certain setting, you could subscribe or only buy the issues that pertain to the settings you want.
I love RIFTS too.. why didn't you just convert to SDC ? I am if I ever run it again.
Back to topic:
I'm all for :
1) P-A setting such as James' setting.
2) Zombie Apocalypse inspired by Deadworld.. magic , demons & intellegent Zombies riding Harleys ..Hail King Zombie!!! Mature rating a must ;)
3) A Space opera ispired by Star Wars, Warhammer 40k & Dune.
The reason that d20 Modern is in the state that it is is that it tried to be 'everything to everyone'.
Really? I thought it was in the state it was in b/c it was treated like a red-haired step-child by WotC. They also opted to run with "D&D in Modern Times" as their intro setting which certainly didn't help highlight it's strengths & differences over D&D.
Also, since a lot of D20 Modern-ims made their way into Star Wars SAGA, I believe D20 Modern can handle science fantasy just fine.
One question, though for those who aren't fans of the D20 Modern classes:
Does you issue/dissatisfaction stem from disliking the mechanics of the classes or from the names?
I'll be the first to admit the names aren't sexy but they are functional and I have yet to find a pulp/modern/sci-fi character concept I couldn't emulate using the base classes.
Ultimately, I think it's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario. Modern & Sci-Fi genres don't always lend themselves to the archetype model in the way fantasy does (which is part of the reason why you see so many point-buy modern & sci-fi games). If you go genre/setting specific, you lose the functionality of the toolkit design. While I'm not a fan of the base class naming conventions, I think it's hard to come up with something that evokes an archetype and can be applicable to multiple genres.
I want it to be able to handle... Dresden files like modern phantasy. And Masquerade-like Vampire hunts.
It must do these two thinds for me to buy it. I can't afford another setting unless it does these better than anything I have, and I believe Paizo could do that.
Otherwise, I have M&M and Star Wars Saga to handle what 3.P d20 doesn't.
I dunno, "Warrior" is pretty generic. So is "Tech Specialist", "Criminal" and "Scholar".
True. However, does Warrior HAVE to be equivalent to a high STR character? Criminal has to be the Dex-based hero? Tech Specialist & Scholar can both be Int-based.
I still think the D20 Modern names do the trick. Not sexy, I agree, but functional.
