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The Dune Saga, the Foundation, Man-Kzin Wars/Ringworld, Starship Troopers (the novel), Enders Game. This is the stuff we should be thinking about.
Instead of "modern space opera", we should be aiming for the height of classic space opera, of which the modern stuff is only a pale shadow.
Tried reading those.. *shudder*. Foundation's good though.
Though you do have a point referencing the classic stuff. That would be right up Paizo's alley, I think, given their interest in things like Planet Stories. I'd personally prefer more modern stuff, and I reckon a well made d20 Sci Fi ruleset would be easily adaptable for both modern and classic Space Opera. Heck, that'd be the first two sourcebooks right there. :D
The Frank Herbert Dune stuff is amazing, it just asks a bit more of the reader than your average novel. I honestly feel that Herbert is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi. Guess it's not for everyone.
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[sorry about the typoes - keyboard failure this morning] I would almost suggest the setting I was working on fie years ago but abandoned due to hakers. RUUL 6 is a kolony world where a single spaseship has made landing. It drops a terraform pod into a miles long alley where primitie peoples hafe been lifing. With the indigenous population wiped out (mostly), they begin produking marines from the kloning banks. The marines are dispatked oeurland to a series of MFG droppods whik hafe been deployed to mining sites and failed to aktuate (EAKH WITH MEGABRAIN KONTROLLERS AND ROBOT WORK KREWS). Unfortunately they run into assorted hostile life in the terraform region and indigenous peoples in the wasteland beyond. Think of it like AUATAR FILM but with desert - not jungle. EARTH KOLONISE USING KLONE FAKTORIES - NOT LIFING KREWS.
I think Paizo would be limiting themselves if they went with a licensed setting. I'd rather see something they brew up or at least bring an old game back to life.
I'd also like to see a less setting-reliant "Starfinder" type product. (I'm personally less intersted in Modern, but it certainly has a place.)
I'm imagining a Pathfinder-like core book that has no more specific setting material than the Pathfinder book does. Sure, there are many, many assumptions in place, and even a few sneak peeks into setting like the Cleric's gods.
But, in general, I'd rather see a book that defines "D&D in space" (sans magic and fantasy, personally speaking) and lets players run wild with setting specifics.
When I say "D&D in space" what I mean is a game system for sci-fi adventures. You still kill things and take their stuff. It's just sci-fi adventure, instead of fantasy adventure.
For example, the version I'd like to see might have the following classes:
Soldier
Marine
Medic
Ghost / Stalker / whatever title
Tech / Engineer
Space Ranger
Outlaw
Officer
Psychic / whatever title
I'm thinking a kind of "StarCraft" type universe. Player find derelict space stations and blast the heck out of aliens there, finding some cool new "tech items" along the way. Later they visit a moon with alien ruins. Etc. etc.
I honestly feel that Herbert is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi.
I'd have to agree. The only problem is that he, like Tolkien, was in desprate need a better editor. Six book and I have yet to meet anyone who made it through all of them. In my college SF club, bragging rights belonged to the one that made it the furthest. As a writer myself, I'd take that as a mark against me.
I honestly feel that Herbert is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi.I'd have to agree. The only problem is that he, like Tolkien, was in desprate need a better editor. Six book and I have yet to meet anyone who made it through all of them. In my college SF club, bragging rights belonged to the one that made it the furthest. As a writer myself, I'd take that as a mark against me.
It's rough to get though, to say the least.
To remind myself, I watch the SciFi Channel Director Cut's release. Much better than the theatrical one, IMHO.
That would be a great start Matt.
I'd also like to see a less setting-reliant "Starfinder" type product. (I'm personally less intersted in Modern, but it certainly has a place.)
I'm imagining a Pathfinder-like core book that has no more specific setting material than the Pathfinder book does. Sure, there are many, many assumptions in place, and even a few sneak peeks into setting like the Cleric's gods.
But, in general, I'd rather see a book that defines "D&D in space" (sans magic and fantasy, personally speaking) and lets players run wild with setting specifics.
When I say "D&D in space" what I mean is a game system for sci-fi adventures. You still kill things and take their stuff. It's just sci-fi adventure, instead of fantasy adventure.
For example, the version I'd like to see might have the following classes:
Soldier
Marine
Medic
Ghost / Stalker / whatever title
Tech / Engineer
Space Ranger
Outlaw
Officer
Psychic / whatever title
I'm thinking a kind of "StarCraft" type universe. Player find derelict space stations and blast the heck out of aliens there, finding some cool new "tech items" along the way. Later they visit a moon with alien ruins. Etc. etc.
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I'd have to agree. The only problem is that he, like Tolkien, was in desprate need a better editor. Six book and I have yet to meet anyone who made it through all of them. In my college SF club, bragging rights belonged to the one that made it the furthest. As a writer myself, I'd take that as a mark against me.
I just read all six last year straight through. I was tempted to read the stuff done by his son and the other guy (can't remember his name) but have heard way to many complaints about their style. I have to agree though about Herbert being Sci-Fi's Tolkien.
A side note for a fantasy comparison, have you checked out Dragon Age? Computer/consule game or the new RPG by Green Ronin? There's kind of a Dune angle going on with the source for mages' mana. GR's system is also interesting and very rules light. I recommend it if you're looking for something different along the quick pickup game format.
I think a PFSRD based Alien vs. Predator vs. Colonial Marine type setting could be grand. Time setting could be approximately 500 years after the last AvP movie. As the technology derived from the predator's shoulder cannon is now being fully exploited. There is a lot of unexplored story in-between AvP: Requiem and Alien.
And it's possible that the Firefly 'verse is the same as the Alien/Predator universe. The big gun that Mal uses to bring down the Alliance ship in the episode "Serenity" has Whelon-Yutani markings. Maybe the bit about the Earth-that-was being used up was really alien xenomorphs took it over. Or Terminators. Or it became a hunting ground for Predators. Or it's just a big scam and Earth is OK and no longer hyper-over-populated. Or it's overrun with Dollhouse zombies.
Heck, Joss Whedon wrote the 4th Aliens movie, and he's (at least half-heartedly or sarcastically) interested in buying the rights to the Terminator franchise. Blue Sun might be a subsidiary of the Whelon-Yutani (or vice-versa).
I think the default setting should be modular, so you can pick and choose what you like for your own campaign.
I honestly feel that Herbert is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi.I'd have to agree. The only problem is that he, like Tolkien, was in desprate need a better editor. Six book and I have yet to meet anyone who made it through all of them. In my college SF club, bragging rights belonged to the one that made it the furthest. As a writer myself, I'd take that as a mark against me.
I've read all the way through Chapterhouse Dune. They are not difficult reads, they merely ask that you actually pay attention to what is happening, instead of being able to autopilot through the book like most novels.
Tolkien was a master wordsmith and craftsman of language, and needs no editor. Instead, you need a reading tutor.
I honestly feel that Herbert is the Tolkien of Sci-Fi.I respectfully disagree. Isaac Asimov is the Tolkien of science fiction.
Herbert himself said this, as well. He drew much of his inspiration for writing Dune from having read Foundation.
Having said that, though, I think both of them told similar stories, but while Asimov came first and was Herbert's muse, Herbert himself was the superior author and the Dune books became part of the public literary consciousness in a way that Foundation did not.
the other guy (can't remember his name)
Kevin J. Anderson. I actively avoided those books simply because his name was on the cover. I read his star wars books. He was completely unable to come up with an original plot and Macguffin, all his villains were paper thin and had anti-climactic deaths. I much preferred Stackpole's Star Wars books.
Now if Stackpole had helped write the new Dune books I'd be all over them.
I always get upset when people talk about Herbert being a great world builder, when C.J. Cherryh is much better at it. She also wrote about 10 times as many books. And is still writing. :-)
EDIT:
Just wikied them. Herbert has 23 novels published, Cherryh 64, plus various novellas and short stories. Also, it looks like she started publishing in the 70's, and Herbert in the 50's. CJ. Cherryh has 3 Hugos and a Locus, Herbert has at least a Nebula and Hugo.
Well my two faves were Alternity settings but I doubt they'll ever be licensed; Dark Matter & Stardrive.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Whatever setting it is, I want stats for this and a race of bald, cigar-smoking, super-intelligent aliens for whom it's a preferred mode of transportation.
Whatever setting it is, I want stats for this and a race of bald, cigar-smoking, super-intelligent aliens for whom it's a preferred mode of transportation.
That's awesome!
Buy me that!
Buy me that!
Buy me that!
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My favorite sci-fi / fantasy setting is Shadowrun. I enjoyed the d20 Modern urban arcana (?) setting a lot for its similarity. I know Shadowrun being its own intellectual property would be off limits. but a similarly toned sci-fi game with magic would be great. The biggest bogdown of shadowrun is that its not a tactical combat game for fights. you think D&D combats stretch out? shadowrun combats can take three or four times as long, and the tables are typically smaller than d&d tables. so i'd vote for a futuristic Pathfinder setting, with magic and technology, maybe space travel ( spelljammer was great, except for powering the ship with your spells )
My favorite sci-fi / fantasy setting is Shadowrun. I enjoyed the d20 Modern urban arcana (?) setting a lot for its similarity. I know Shadowrun being its own intellectual property would be off limits. but a similarly toned sci-fi game with magic would be great. The biggest bogdown of shadowrun is that its not a tactical combat game for fights. you think D&D combats stretch out? shadowrun combats can take three or four times as long, and the tables are typically smaller than d&d tables. so i'd vote for a futuristic Pathfinder setting, with magic and technology, maybe space travel ( spelljammer was great, except for powering the ship with your spells )
What Shadowrun are you playing? I'm running a 3rd edition game, and I've always loved how fast, smooth, and elegant the firefight and combat mechanics are in Shadowrun. Most of the combats I've run are resolved much more quickly, and are much more deadly, than D&D combats.
I suppose that if you had a GM that didn't know the rules and didn't know what he was doing, it might stretch out. But that's true of any RPG.
I believe that the d20 license for Traveller will be available soon. I cannot think of a better fit for that version of Traveller than to have it graced by Paizo and its Pathfinder engine.
I don't really think the d20/D&D system is well suited to simulating Gunbattles and Firefights, especially if things like powered armor and such are involved. Especially if cybernetics and biotechnology are available.
Plus, "Classes" do not really work for a modern/future setting. In real life, people, even in the military, do not fall into Archetypes and Tropes. I supposed you could dumb it down and just lump everyone into a couple of Combat-arms and Support classes, but that would be stupid.
They need to have a classless system if they do a Future book.
I believe that the d20 license for Traveller will be available soon. I cannot think of a better fit for that version of Traveller than to have it graced by Paizo and its Pathfinder engine.I don't really think the d20/D&D system is well suited to simulating Gunbattles and Firefights, especially if things like powered armor and such are involved. Especially if cybernetics and biotechnology are available.
Plus, "Classes" do not really work for a modern/future setting. In real life, people, even in the military, do not fall into Archetypes and Tropes. I supposed you could dumb it down and just lump everyone into a couple of Combat-arms and Support classes, but that would be stupid.
They need to have a classless system if they do a Future book.
I really like the 6 base classes based on Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha. Then you can take Advanced classes at 4th level that fill more specific roles, like Soldier, Martial Artist, Gunslinger, Infiltrator, Bodyguard, Daredevil, Combat Medic, Investigator, Personality, Negotiator, etc. It's a really flexible system, and with the changes to skills that Pathfinder made, really enhances that.
Since there is an emphasis on multiclassing so much, I would like to see the new core D20 Modern/Future rules use fractional BABs.
Gun battles can be made more deadly by treating any hit against a flat-footed opponent as an automatic crit-threat (still needs to be confirmed normally); this, combined with the Massive Damage Threshold equaling a character's Consitution Score instead of 50, makes firearms, particularly critical hits from firearms, quite lethal.
The powered armor (Mech) rules in d20 Future generally gave the wearer an enhancement bonus to Strength, some DR, Armor bonus to AC, and bonus hit points, possibly with an increase to Speed and alteration to Dex (+ or -).
If there's going to be generic classes I'd rather they be something like fighter, expert and spellcaster then based around ability scores.
If there's going to be generic classes I'd rather they be something like fighter, expert and spellcaster then based around ability scores.
I'd rather just have a shadowrun-style point-buy system for the character's skills and powers. You could have sample Templates in the book that give players an idea of what party roles might be like, but still have the actual character system be open.
For example, there is no hard, fast difference between a "Street Samurai" and "Mercenary" and "Weapon Expert" and "Covert Ops Specialist" in Shadowrun. The difference is in degrees, in the way each build is tweaked, and the way the emphasis is placed. And even then, an individual player wouldn't have to pick any of these, because they're not classes, just sample templates created using the build system.
About the only thing that seperates characters is whether they are Magically Active or not. But even then, it only divides them into two general, large populations, and everything it still customizable from there.
I believe that the d20 license for Traveller will be available soon. I cannot think of a better fit for that version of Traveller than to have it graced by Paizo and its Pathfinder engine.
As I understand it (qualifications: I'm a Traveller 3rd party publisher), Mongoose has an exclusive license for ... years (until something like 2018). All non-Mongoose (and Steve Jackson) licenses are sunsetting and not being renewed, nor are new ones being issued.
One of the great strengths of Pathfinder's Golarion setting is it's ability to accommodate various moods, playstyles and adventure types with as much or as little interaction as you want. I believe this versatility should also be the cornerstone of a Pathfinder modern setting as well, with lore existing to accommodate it Want to run a spy game in old Europe? A Bruckheimer-level action fest in America? Secret giant mecha battling Kaiju in Japan? An adaptation of any of the original D20 Modern settings? A mix-and-match of any of the above? All should be possible. A toolbox setting for a toolbox game, if you will.
Future should probably be a separate setting for obvious reasons, but with the same level of versatility. Blade Runner, Star Trek, Firefly and the Alien films should all be possible within. Probably a lot harder to do logically, but it would avoid a discontinuity between the rules.
Just my two cents.
Oh, and one small request? Make something happen down here in Australia? By RPG standards Australia is the most boring continent on Earth. And that includes Antarctica.
Hey folks, you need to check this thread out. Make your voices heard.
*cough* freestuff *cough*
ahem...
I'm totally getting into this discussion late, but wanted to drop in my two cents anyways.
Personally, what I've found lacking in d20 sci-fi gaming isn't the rules but a good batch of adventures to run. If Paizo cooked off a good sci-fi AP, I'd be in heaven.
Much like Rise of the Runelords, a sci-fi AP (and I love the name 'Starfinder') would set a foundation that would later sprout into a campaign setting. My base assumption is that it'd be a space-travel type setting with lots of different planets and stellar phenomenon which would allow them to set up different types of sci-fi campaigns just as they've done with Golarion:
A region of planets under imperial control (with maybe a local rebellion going on).
A planet that's collapsed into a post-apocalipstick setting.
A sector of space being threatened by bug aliens.
A galactic shogunate that's developed battle mecha as their weapon of choice.
And so on...
While many of those sound pretty generic, I think where Paizo excels is in making the details really gripping. Fer instance, there's nothing *really* new about Golarion's goblins, but the way they were presented in RotRL was invigorating. Likewise, I trust them to be able to come up with refreshing ways of presenting space travel or aliens or whatever in ways that bring lots of flavor to those sci-fi RPG concepts that people are most comfortable with.
A Dragonstar/SpellJammer type setting would be something I would support. Redo things so that you could have something other than illithids as the main villain race. Heck, there was a weird monster in Council of Thieves in one of their bestiaries that combined aspects of mind flayers and beholders you could tap to replace them if necessary. Or use the Denizens of Leng that I hear will be coming in Bestiary 2. There are ways around it. I want it so I can use the furry races I created and posted to the database as alien races for PCs.
Well my two faves were Alternity settings but I doubt they'll ever be licensed; Dark Matter & Stardrive.
I second this. I loved the setting.
For my own choices...
1. Aftermath!
2. Morrow Project
3. Hammer's Slammers
4. Nightbane
5. Something new where the PCs are part of a Universe Hopping Police / Detective Org that goes from place to place and puts out 'problems'
6. Terminator, the dark side of the story. Either Human or Term side!!
7. Lost in Space... you KNOW you want it >.<
8. Metamorphisis Alpha ( REALLY dating myself here now.)
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
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I agree with other posters, we should have a P20 Modern AND a P20 Sci Fi.
For a P20 Modern the implied setting should allow for the following types of campaign:
Urban fantasy (Urban Arcana, World of Darkness, Dresden Files)
Espionage (Top Secret, Bond, 24, Bourne)
Military (Ghost Recon, etc.)
Horror / Occult (Dark Matter, Shadow Chasers, Buffy, Lovecraft)
Conspiracy / Weird (Dark Matter, X Files, Fringe)
Crime / Mystery
I would have to say i think if there is going to be a default setting to a modern game. it should be a modern setting. One that could allow for regular violence. Maybe a war type setting or something akin Fringe/x-files... [looks up at Yojimbouk's last post] Yeah what he said.