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Also, one of the most devistating characters I ever made was a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian. Between a charging, raging, spiked chain with sneak attack against a flat footed room, with great cleave and combat reflexes, it was extremely broken.No, it probably wasn't. With some actual details on the character, I could comment in greater detail as to why.
+1
You tell me he was level 8, I'll believe you were relevant. Any higher and you're just a pack mule, still stuck chewing through HP. Maybe you squeezed enough to deal noticable damage, but you're still chipping away at HPs.
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Top of my head, human 10 Fighter, 4 Barbarian, 6 Rogue.
Str:28
Dex: 22
Con: 24
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 6
+4 flaming, shocking, mage bane, tripping, adamantine spiked chain
Feats: Power Attack, Imp. Init., Cleave, Great Cleave, Leap Attack, Weapon Focus, Specialization and Imp. Crit Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip.
He didn't chip at HP, he dropped it first in surprize rounds. Note this was 3.5 and I specifically made this character to show the DM something, (in epic). I only got to play for maybe 7 levels, but the damage output was rediculous.
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I get the feeling you are just trying to shut everything I specifically say, down. I played the character and so I really don't need anyones opinion to tell me if it is broken, factually. It was. Yes, up to 20th level, but it started getting rediculous around 10th.
The biggest mistake that people that use ratios and numbers to calculate builds is that they assume that such characters will only be fighting singular CR appropriate monsters. With Multiclassing, (and lesser extent any character evaluation) there are a lot of things to look at, not just one.
In my experience, I was a rogue who basically wanted to be the great stealther, but every time I tried to stealth on things, peeking around corners even, I was automatically OUT OF STEALTH and failed automatically on my stealth role. I decided...okay, I'm going to have to play it up even more that I am a stealthy rogue. So I get myself a mirror to peer around corners, I still fail.
/scratch head
/light bulb turns on!
/takes a level in Shadowdancer
/GM cries
/Player rejoices
End of the story, it works a lot of times, but I would have to agree, that if you're a caster, be a solid caster.
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I'll agree. It can work well if your character concept is not based around a single classes features. If your wanting to be a spellcaster with a little more, it usually works that you are a little more with weak spellcasting.
I generally concider prestige classing different than multiclassing, though, so prestige classing with a caster can be a very different story.
I dont know if anyone tried the Ultimate Magus in 3.5. I was looking at it the other day and realized how underpowered he is for pathfinder. In 3.5 he wasnt too shabby especially if you were a specialist and you wanted to get spells from the prohibitted schools. But now with all the goodies Sorcerers and Specialist wizards got it went pretty much defunct.
I have a friend who's working on getting to it in my 3.5 game, with Warmage/Wizard...it's an interesting concept/build....lots of blowy up on the one side, and then all the flexibility/control on the other.
We know it's not the most powerful, but it certainly provides for a lot of options!
he should definitely look into ultimate magus with practiced spellcaster warmage. Tons of metamagic possibilities and adding spells to a warmage's list is very powerful.
OK, so we've hashed out what is, and is not the Most Effective multi-classing. Let's look at the other end of the spectrum.
Can you come up with a multi-class combination that doesn't run into alignment issues that sucks worse than this one?
Half Elf
STR: 13, DEX: 13, CON 13, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 13+2 (15 points)
Ranger 7, Bard 4th, Mystic Theurge 9.
Stat bonuses go to raise CON to 14, WIS to 14, CHA to 16, DEX to 14 and STR to 14 (like it'll matter at 20th).
Your challenge, if you are up to it, is to come up with three other character builds using the core PC classes and prestige classes that do NOT outshine this character.
(With any luck, someone is reading this post and giggling hysterically. And maybe a min-maxer's brain is sizzling like bacon.)
OK, so we've hashed out what is, and is not the Most Effective multi-classing. Let's look at the other end of the spectrum.
Can you come up with a multi-class combination that doesn't run into alignment issues that sucks worse than this one?
Half Elf
STR: 13, DEX: 13, CON 13, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 13+2 (15 points)
Ranger 7, Bard 4th, Mystic Theurge 9.
Stat bonuses go to raise CON to 14, WIS to 14, CHA to 16, DEX to 14 and STR to 14 (like it'll matter at 20th).
Your challenge, if you are up to it, is to come up with three other character builds using the core PC classes and prestige classes that do NOT outshine this character.
(With any luck, someone is reading this post and giggling hysterically. And maybe a min-maxer's brain is sizzling like bacon.)
Half elf is too optimized :) that free floating stat and two favored classes is great.
The one multi-class character we've got in the party I'm in right now is projecting Fighter 18/Sorcerer 2.
20 point stat build, Human:
STR 16+2, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 12
1st level Fighter 1
Feats are Dodge, Power Attack and Weapon Focus [Greatsword]
2nd Level Sorcerer 1 (Arcane) (Item Focus - Masterwork Greatsword)
1st Level Spells are Feather Fall, True Strike (3+1+1 spells/day)
0th Level Spells are Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending (4+1+1 spells/day).
3rd Level Sorcerer 2: Add 0th level spell Message
Feat: Arcane Strike
In Melee,
BAB is 2+4[STR]+1[WF]+1[MW], -1 for Power Attack. Total of +7
Damage is 2d6+6[STRx1.5]+3[PAx1.5]+1[AS] = 2d6+10, which is pretty impressive for a 3rd level character (will reliably one shot most 3 HD opponents.)
True Strike means that that first shot is at +27. He won't miss any 3 HD opponents, provided he's willing to attack once every other round.
Neither True Strike or Feather Fall have Somatic components, so his armor doesn't affect them. His Eschew Materials from Sorcerer means he pretty much says "Shazam!" or "I-don't-wanna-splat!".
Plus, he now has the requisite abilities to use arcane Wands.
The three he's looking for are:
Expeditious Retreat (AKA "Yes, You're In Range For My Greatsword")
Enlarge Person (AKA "No, Really, You're In Range For My Greatsword.")
Bull's Strength (AKA "Don't Get Up. Really.")
Plus, for ranged combat, there's always the Wand of Fireballs or Wand of Scorching Ray.
Enlarge Person is the highest priority due to the extra reach - it effectively adds 1d6+1 damage - 3d6+11 is just shy of a one shot kill on a 4 HD opponent. If the Bull's Strength spell happens, it's 3d6+14, which is pretty close to a one shot kill on a ranged opponent.
Let's look at his next few levels:
4th Level Fighter 2nd
Feat: Combat Reflexes
Stat Bump: +1 STR
5th Level Fighter 3rd
Feat: Mobility
Power Attack is now -2 to hit, and +6 damage; if using the Wands of Self Buffing option, he's now hitting for 3d6+17. Without the buffing, he's at 2d6+13, which is respectable. He has 30' move in a breastplate.
6th Level Fighter 4th
Feat: Weapon Specialization [Greatsword], Spring Attack
Without buffing, he's at 2d6+15. With a Wand of "I'm In Your Face Now", he can move 30', attack someone and move 30' back.
7th Level Fighter 5th
Feat: Not sure what feat to take here.
Weapon Training 1: Without buffs, his native damage with PA is 2d6+16.
He finally has a BAB of +6/+1.
8th Level Fighter 6th
Feat: Not sure yet
Stat Bump: +1 STR
Without buffs, his native damage with PA is 2d6+17 now. With the full buffing routine mentioned above, he's at 3d6+22...and can still use True Strike to ensure that he doesn't miss.
9th Level Fighter 7th
Feat: Improved Critical
Can now move full speed in Plate Mail.
Without buffs, his native damage is 2d6+20 (PA added 3 more), with buffage, he's at 3d6+25.
Through most of the 'power 12' levels where the game gets played, he's pretty ruthlessly effective. All figures here assume nothing but wands (low magic campaign).
This is a question of interest to me as well. Not so much from as how it benefits my character but more from a necessity for our group. My group tends to be more of a fighter based group with myself and another player as a fighter, another as a barbarian who is looking to take on some sorcerer levels and a ranger who will take some rogue levels. With this configuration we have no healing ability other than Heal checks and cure light wound potions. I was thinking of taking on a few cleric levels just so our group has someone who can heal. I've played clerics before but was hoping to just see what a straight-up fighter was like in PF. My character has two levels as a fighter and working on 1st level cleric (we do a buy in system where you can buy level abilities individually as you gain xp rather than waiting until you reach the amount of xp for each level to get all the abilities at one time.) Any comments or ideas regarding the fighter/cleric combo?
This is a question of interest to me as well. Not so much from as how it benefits my character but more from a necessity for our group. My group tends to be more of a fighter based group with myself and another player as a fighter, another as a barbarian who is looking to take on some sorcerer levels and a ranger who will take some rogue levels. With this configuration we have no healing ability other than Heal checks and cure light wound potions. I was thinking of taking on a few cleric levels just so our group has someone who can heal. I've played clerics before but was hoping to just see what a straight-up fighter was like in PF. My character has two levels as a fighter and working on 1st level cleric (we do a buy in system where you can buy level abilities individually as you gain xp rather than waiting until you reach the amount of xp for each level to get all the abilities at one time.) Any comments or ideas regarding the fighter/cleric combo?
Did you consider going the Paladin route for a level, rather than cleric? and would your GM allow what you have done to go towards Paladin rather than Cleric?
As Farabor mentioned, Paladins can use wands of curing, which should help healing wise out of combat.
This is a question of interest to me as well. Not so much from as how it benefits my character but more from a necessity for our group. My group tends to be more of a fighter based group with myself and another player as a fighter, another as a barbarian who is looking to take on some sorcerer levels and a ranger who will take some rogue levels. With this configuration we have no healing ability other than Heal checks and cure light wound potions. I was thinking of taking on a few cleric levels just so our group has someone who can heal. I've played clerics before but was hoping to just see what a straight-up fighter was like in PF. My character has two levels as a fighter and working on 1st level cleric (we do a buy in system where you can buy level abilities individually as you gain xp rather than waiting until you reach the amount of xp for each level to get all the abilities at one time.) Any comments or ideas regarding the fighter/cleric combo?Did you consider going the Paladin route for a level, rather than cleric? and would your GM allow what you have done to go towards Paladin rather than Cleric?
As Farabor mentioned, Paladins can use wands of curing, which should help healing wise out of combat.
Thanks Forabor and Mistwalker for the input. We do have a Ranger in the group so perhaps he could be persuaded to buy a Wand of Healing and have everyone else stock up on potions. That would save me from having to multiclass which I really didn't want to do in the first place. Paladin is out of the question for two reasons, Paladins can only be lawful good and my character is neutral good. My fighter is a decent guy, but he's still a mercenary and not squeaky clean enough to be lawful good.
Thanks Forabor and Mistwalker for the input. We do have a Ranger in the group so perhaps he could be persuaded to buy a Wand of Healing and have everyone else stock up on potions. That would save me from having to multiclass which I really didn't want to do in the first place. Paladin is out of the question for two reasons, Paladins can only be lawful good and my character is neutral good. My fighter is a decent guy, but he's still a mercenary and not squeaky clean enough to be lawful good.
Then your best bet is probably having the ranger use a wand of cure light wounds. Rather than have him buy the wand, perhaps the group could buy a few (they go quite fast :)). You also may want to have a few other players get a few ranks in Use Magic Device to help out with the healing and in case the ranger goes down.
I've been on vacation for the last week, so I'm just getting back to the messageboards.
So, is a 17th level cleric really going to use his one 9th level spell slot on a Quickened flame strike (where the mystic theurge cast the fireball/flamestrike combo up to four times per day)? Not to mention that the mystic theurge can pull off the two spell trick using 6th level, 7th level, etc. spells without a 75,500 gp Quicken metamagic rod or a 170,000 gp greater Quicken metamagic rod.No, but that's because Flamestrike is terrible. There are lots of second to fourth level spells worth Quickening, and the MT can't really afford to use its few high-level spell slots to do that. The MT does get the signature schtick of casting two seventh-level spells at once, but it can hardly afford to do so very often.
<shrug>
The 16th+ character level mystic theurge can afford to double-cast 5th, 6th, and 7th level spells more often than a single class caster can afford to prepare Quickened versions of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells. There's also the issue with how combat effective (damage, battlefield control, etc.) most cleric spells are in relation to sorcerer/wizard spells (and flamestrike is a decent 5th level damage spell, mostly because half of the damage isn't subject to elemental resistance/immunity).
Please re-read the rules on Use Magic Device (PF RPG pg. 108-109) the DCs are quite high for a skill that doesn't allow you to take 10. It's a major investment that doesn't become a worthwhile regular action (90-95% success rate on the easiest checks) until you can attain a +17 or +18 on the skill check (probably around 12th-13th level, without an investment in the feats Magical Aptitude and/or Skill Focus).Coincidentally, right about the same time that the MT comes into its own. (And the feat is worth it if you're lacking a pure spellcaster of some sort, especially with PF's cheaper feats.)
Actually, my posts demonstrated that the mystic theurge can "come into it's own" (at least in terms of the specific function of acting as a combatant at around the same ability as an equal level cleric) at 8th level. It's interesting that you feel a feat or two to beef up a major investment in a non-class skill (for a class that doesn't get many skill ranks in the first place and probably has a low Int) is acceptable, but a feat or two to wear armor without a chance of arcane spell failure for the mystic theurge is "a waste."
All of which is based on the assumption that 1 min per level spells can't be cast outside of combat and that there's no "down time" between adventures (and scrolls can be scribed very quickly at 1,000 gp market cost per day, 2 hours if 250 gp or less). This is a GM fiat/play style issue, not a RAW issue. Leave it at that.Correct me if I'm wrong, but nothing I said was predicated on the assumption that scrolls cannot be cast out of combat or that there's no downtime between quests. I simply pointed out that you've made a character who burns 15K gold a week to be, at best, marginally inferior to other characters, under the strict circumstances that best favor the MT.
If your playstyle is the most favorable possible to the MT, it's almost a level-appropriate melee combatant. You'll make the monk jealous.
Almost all of your arguments have been about "opportunity cost/rounds in combat casting spells," "GMs will disrupt any chance for characters to prepare before combat," etc. in relation to 1 min/level spells; that's pretty much an assumption that scrolls with those spells can't be cast out of combat. The comments on scribing scrolls are a bit of a preemptive strike.
Apart from the fact that the ~16K gold specified included a ~4K gold mithral breastplate, burning 12K gold for a payoff of 18K gold (Medium advancement) or 27K gold (Fast advancement) could be considered by many people a decent return. As far as "marginally inferior" goes, I have yet to see anything in system mechanics showing the "overwhelming superiority" of the cleric in the same role, nor has anyone refuted the post regarding a mid to high level party with access to a variety of divinations being in a position to gather enough data about the location and its inhabitants to be able to prepare for the majority of encounters; and no one has showed a cleric that is a better combatant than a fighter specialized in the same fighting style (melee or ranged). If you want to be a "level-appropriate melee combatant," be a fighter; if you want to be a so-so melee combatant who can cast spells, there's not a lot of difference between a cleric and a prepared mystic theurge.
Here's the thing, though. Based on the average advancement, you are saying that essentually you can devote 10% of your total treasure for consumable spell items, (potions, wands, and scrolls). However, you are looking at 1.) 13 encounters per level (so basically every single level you own "the bank" an additional 30% of what you should have made and yourself have 0 GP and also that you are counting on being extremely lucky and gaining all the items (scrolls, wands, etc. . .) that you need to burn through almost daily.
13 encounters to level is a 3.5 mechanic. Pathfinder uses a different advancement system.
In fact, going by the rough estimate of a 12th level character using ~11-12K gold on consumables (out of 108K gold using the Wealth By Level guidelines, about 11%) for eight CR 12 encounters (averaged among the combat encounters), that same character (in a party of 4) would earn approximately 8 * 4,800 = 38,400 XP. Since the game isn't only about combat, there will also be "... traps, obstacles, and roleplaying encounters..." (PF RPG, pg. 399), as well as the possibility of Story Awards.
Again, if the 12th level character "spends" 12K gold for a return of 18K or 27K gold, many would consider that a profit. Even if the character goes through three iterations (Medium advancement) to gain a level, the character is up about 18K gold. The gain on the Wealth By Level table is 32K gold; if the character has some item crafting feats (in addition to Scribe Scroll), that gap is easily overcome.
Also, read pg. 400. "Table 12-4 lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level... It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls)... Table 12-4 can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level... For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items."
The Building a Treasure Hoard section is another worthwhile read. Specifically, coins, gems, fine artwork, jewelry, and treasure maps/other intelligence can all be sold at full market value. It's only masterwork tools, mundane gear, and magic items that need to be sold at half price (if they aren't useful to the party, in which case they will be kept).
The whole point of multiclassing is not to pound a round peg into a square hole, and no, you are not impressing anyone by pointing out exactly how heavy the hammer needs to be and how many times you need to pound on it. It's just unworkable without the entire group and the GM all being on board in order to give you your moment to shine in the one thing your character does absolutely worst in the world mechanically.
QFT
<my play-style is the One True Way>
Obviously you don't want to discuss system mechanics (apart from simply comparing spell slots). Characterizing options explicitly in the rules as requiring GM approval?
<shrug>
Whatever.
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As far as I know, the only thing we are sayig that needs GM approval would be access to all the wands and scrolls that you want. Most of the time, they are not just there for you to buy at your leisure.
No one is saying theirs is the "one true way", but rather, what your group seems to be okay with simply would not work in most other games. Mystic Theurge is a very poor choice in most games.
As far as I know, the only thing we are sayig that needs GM approval would be access to all the wands and scrolls that you want. Most of the time, they are not just there for you to buy at your leisure.
No one is saying theirs is the "one true way", but rather, what your group seems to be okay with simply would not work in most other games. Mystic Theurge is a very poor choice in most games.
I believe that it all depends on the play style of the group.
I have seen a Mystic Theurge done well and done very badly.
As far as I know, the only thing we are sayig that needs GM approval would be access to all the wands and scrolls that you want. Most of the time, they are not just there for you to buy at your leisure.
No one is saying theirs is the "one true way", but rather, what your group seems to be okay with simply would not work in most other games. Mystic Theurge is a very poor choice in most games.
I agree, rarely if ever can my players buy everything they want. Heck often they have to either make it, or make do. I don't have Walmarts of magic anywhere in my world.
I like the Mysitic Theurge, don't know anything about it powerwise vs other builds but generally don't care either.
It's not the choice for folks who want thier Wizards to be GOD to use Treatmonk's flavor of speech. That said, it has it's merits in it's really really big toolkit of spells and devices one can access it's the ulitmate tradeoff of raw power for casting flexibility. By the way if you're dissing level 1 buffs, never, never, underestimate the utility of a good old Protection from Alignment spell when dealing with mind control effects. If you have the forwarning and the opportunity, that's the first spell you slap on your big dumb barbarian/fighter type. Not to mention being able to cast a party full of Endure Elements in harsh weather conditions may mean edge in survival all by itself.
I believe that it all depends on the play style of the group.
I have seen a Mystic Theurge done well and done very badly.
Keep in mind that the protection from series of spells got a big nerf.
Human
Barbarian level 2 with moment of clarity
Sorcerer level 3 copper dragon sorcerer
level 4 dragon disciple
i used to play a sorcerer and got beaten to many times
The players i am with don't know much about team work and i always ended up were i didn't want to be or dead
Now i can old my own without being the one man show of the team and have 10 times more fun
Paladin 5
Sorcerer 1
Arcane Archer 2
Sorcerer 2-13
You get to the point where you can Imbue an arrow with Anti-Magic Field (or Wall of Stone) and can then use the bow itself with the AA abilities and Bonded Weapon from the Paladin side of things, plus Smite Evil.
This is a character that lives by CHA and DEX.
This is why my usual 'preferred' multiclass build looks like this:
Human
1st: Fighter 1
F: Weapon Focus: Greatsword
F: Power Attack
F: Dodge
2nd: Sorc 1 (Arcane Bloodline, bonded item)
Spells: 0: Mage Hand, Mending, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1: Feather Fall, True Strike
3rd: Sorc 2
F: Arcane Strike
Spells: 0: Prestidigitation
4th: Fighter 2
F: Mobility
5th: Fighter 3, Armor Training 1
F: Spring Attack
6th: Fighter 4
F: Weapon Specialization, Greatsword
7th: Fighter 5, Weapon Training
F: Vital Strike (4d6+6+6+1+2 damage when he hits.)
... and from there, it's pretty much straight fighter, and slapping on any thing that will let him do more damage when he does True Strike on a target.
Plus the ability to use all Arcane wands. (Useful ones are Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person and Bull's Strength)
As a Sorcerer, he's a mistake. As a 'I gotta make this hit *count*' BSF, he's pretty keen.
The real problem with caster multi-classing is that you can't stack caster levels for determining spell effects; unlike the melee classes you don't get additive benefits, and your spellchucking is going to suffer mightily.