the fact that it's mechanically possible by the RAW is enough to disprove the premise "the mystic theurge cannot be an effective combatant."Except that nobody but you has been arguing about that premise this entire time, and everyone has been pointing out to you "Those circumstances are really specific and unlikely so they don't really matter and unless you have those circumstances the MT blows at melee."
It took me a bit to find this:
Theurges are not good at hitting people in the face and expending resources to try and do that is a bad idea as a theurge, nine times out of ten.
That's rather different statement.
If what you meant was "the mystic theurge can't count on being able to buff up before every fight," I would have agreed; your statement reads more like "the mystic theurge sucks at combat and trying to fight with one is a complete waste of time."
Even without those pre-combat opportunities, the mystic theurge with false life and heroism up, in addition to magic vestment and greater magic weapon is not far behind the straight cleric (less than 10 hp difference on average between 8th-14th level and +1 behind on the attack bonus during 11th-14th level). Given that divine favor (+1 per three caster levels on attack rolls and damage rolls; max. +3) gives almost the same benefit as divine power (+1 per three caster levels on attack rolls, damage rolls, Str checks, and Str-based skill checks; max. +6) until CL 12, the combat effectiveness is pretty much the same, too. At 9th level, the cleric gets righteous might, which is a bit nicer than enlarge person because of the DR; however, at 10th level the mystic theurge gets stoneskin.
more incorrect stuff
Ok we're going to take a level 12 non-multiclassed cleric (or magical knack cleric with 2 levels multi-classed), full casting and we'll see if you're right that he can't keep up with the fighter or mystic theurge.
assuming 12 cleric access to 6th level spells
Buckler 4 shield AC(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
breastplate(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
weapon(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)
+1 defending gauntlet(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)
To buy these benefits would cost the fighter the price of the masterwork items + 9K for the +3 buckler, 9k for the +3 breastplate, 18k for the +3 weapon, and 50k for the gauntlet
it costs the cleric the price of the mundane items, a masterwork gauntlet, and 8k for +1 defending.
Now alternatively the cleric could put +1 flaming/freezing on his weapon and enhance it to +3 furthering the gap.
First round of battle fighter is closing with his enemy, cleric can lead with with a self-buff, possibly a quickend buff from a rod in a glove of storing since he saved all that money on enhancing his weapons. If he's an archer cleric he can drop an anti-life shell and start full attacking, or if he's fighting mooks he can help his group by droping a holy smite and blinding most of them. Second round, full attack with the bow drop an enemy possibly 2. Third attack full attack with bow, drop another enemy. Forth round, full attack, everyone's dead.
Your MT is casting enlarge person. Second round Your MT is casting shield. Your MT is casting haste. Your MT is wondering what happened to all the enemies.
*sits down with popcorn*
LOL: Me too.
more incorrect stuffOk we're going to take a level 12 non-multiclassed cleric (or magical knack cleric with 2 levels multi-classed), full casting and we'll see if you're right that he can't keep up with the fighter or mystic theurge.
assuming 12 cleric access to 6th level spells
Buckler 4 shield AC(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
breastplate(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
weapon(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)
+1 defending gauntlet(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)To buy these benefits would cost the fighter the price of the masterwork items + 9K for the +3 buckler, 9k for the +3 breastplate, 18k for the +3 weapon, and 50k for the gauntlet
it costs the cleric the price of the mundane items, a masterwork gauntlet, and 8k for +1 defending.
Now alternatively the cleric could put +1 flaming/freezing on his weapon and enhance it to +3 furthering the gap.
First round of battle fighter is closing with his enemy, cleric can lead with with a self-buff, possibly a quickend buff from a rod in a glove of storing since he saved all that money on enhancing his weapons. If he's an archer cleric he can drop an anti-life shell and start full attacking, or if he's fighting mooks he can help his group by droping a holy smite and blinding most of them. Second round, full attack with the bow drop an enemy possibly 2. Third attack full attack with bow, drop another enemy. Forth round, full attack, everyone's dead.
Your MT is casting enlarge person. Second round Your MT is casting shield. Your MT is casting haste. Your MT is wondering what happened to all the enemies.
And the Mystic Theurge can't the same extended spells because ....
I think all you proved is the utility of extend spell :D
edit- even taking into account that the MT has to deal with arcane spell failure, if he grabs a mithral BP and takes arcane armor training a few times, he is golden. He might have to cast shield instead of carrying one, but that opens his other hand up for wielding a bigger weapon, or pulling out a scroll, or flipping off the opponent.
what I am boggled by, is why anybody would want to spend 5-6 spells trying to be frontline combatant when your party members are crying out for healing or fireballs. The MT strength in is his versatility. He can cast twice as many divine or arcane spells. That's crazy awesome.
It's a shame it's not true. Heck, I compared their spell access last page. By level 15 the MT has a dozen spells over the cleric, but they're all four or more spell levels behind the curve.
Indeed. Christ people, the math is posted on the damn thread. MT as "I have tons of spells" is a myth unless you're talking about 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells - and by the time you have noticeably more of them their relevance in combat is largely at an end since people often have magic items that provide permanent bonuses that equal or exceed those that could be granted by the spells, while their save DCs are so low that foes only fail on a natural 1 or 2.
Ahem. Who is the one who posted the following regarding divine power?Someone who was talking about something relevant to this thread, in context, no doubt.
Yes, the context was I did not "understand" CoDzilla. You then stated that casting divine power at the start of combat ("a single spell"), along with long-term buffs (magic vestment and greater magic weapon) allowed the cleric to outfight the fighter. Unfortunately, that statement is incorrect, as demonstrated in my earlier post. A further proof is below.
Ok we're going to take a level 12 non-multiclassed cleric (or magical knack cleric with 2 levels multi-classed), full casting and we'll see if you're right that he can't keep up with the fighter or mystic theurge.
assuming 12 cleric access to 6th level spells
Buckler 4 shield AC(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
breastplate(+3 extended magic vestment, 24 hours)
weapon(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)
+1 defending gauntlet(+3 extended greater magic weapon, 24 hours)
The cleric will be fighting with two weapons (weapon and gauntlet); a curious choice. Read the description of defending (PF RPG pg. 470): "As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon's enchantment bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon..." (emphasis mine) Also, read the description of the buckler on pg. 150: "You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon... but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn." Additionally, read the description on pg. 146: "This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack." Unless the cleric takes Improved Unarmed Attack, making an attack with the gauntlet provokes an AoO.
The cleric's AC is 23+Dex bonus weapon/buckler or 22+Dex bonus weapon/gauntlet and his total attack bonus is +12+Str bonus for a melee weapon (damage X+3+Str bonus) or +12+Dex bonus for a missile weapon (damage X+3; if the cleric uses a bow built for Str, then add the Str bonus), +11+Str bonus (+8 if using the defending ability) for the gauntlet (damage 1d3+3+half Str bonus; 1d3+0+half Str bonus if using the defending ability), full attacks with weapon for +12/+7 (plus Str or Dex bonus) or gauntlet for +11/+6 (plus Str bonus; +8/+3 if using defending) or with both weapon and gauntlet for +8/+3 and +3 (plus Str bonus; if the cleric has Two-Weapon Fighting, that improves to +10/+5 and +9 plus Str bonus; if using defending, reduce it to +0 or +6). Divine power adds +4 on attack rolls and damage for +16 or +16/+11 (plus Str or Dex bonus) with the weapon (damage X+7+Str bonus) and +15 or +15/+10 (plus Str bonus; +12 or +12/+7 if using defending) with the gauntlet (damage 1d3+7+half Str bonus; 1d3+4+half Str bonus if using defending).
Even if I'm misreading what you are intending, attacking with just a gauntlet while using the buckler, that's still AC 26+Dex bonus and total attack bonus of +13 or +13/+8 (plus Str bonus) if using defending (damage 1d3+4+Str bonus).
To buy these benefits would cost the fighter the price of the masterwork items + 9K for the +3 buckler, 9k for the +3 breastplate, 18k for the +3 weapon, and 50k for the gauntlet
The fighter is more likely to spend 13,200 gp for a +3 mithral breastplate (+9 AC, +8 Max Dex, no Armor Check penalty, full movement rate; counting mithral and Armor Training), 9,167 gp for a +2 bashing heavy wooden shield with shield spikes (a light piercing martial weapon that does 1d8/x2; treated as a +1 enchanted weapon), 18,315 gp for a +3 longsword, and 8,400+gp for a +2 composite longbow built for his Str bonus; he also invests in some potions of fly for 750 gp each, some potions of haste for 750 gp each, and some potions of enlarge person for 50 gp each. He wouldn't bother with the gauntlet, since he has used 5 of his feats to gain Improved Shield Bash, Shield Slam, Shield Master, Shield Focus, and Greater Shield Focus; he can bash with the shield without losing its AC bonus, gains a free bull rush with a successful shield bash, takes no two-weapon penalties when bashing with a shield and attacking with another weapon, adds the shield's shield bonus (+4, counting enhancement) to attack and damage rolls with the shield, and gains an additional +2 AC bonus (+6 total). His other 8 feats (human) are used for Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword), Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), and Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword). He has Weapon Training in Heavy Blades (+2 attack/damage) and Close (+1 attack/damage).
So, the fighter's AC is 25+Dex bonus and has a total attack bonus of +19+Str bonus with his longsword (damage 1d8+9+Str bonus), +18+Str bonus with his shield (damage 1d8+6+Str bonus), full attacks with both longsword and shield for +19/+14/+9 longsword (plus Str bonus) and +18/+13 shield (plus Str bonus), and +14+Dex bonus with his bow (damage 1d8+2+Str bonus).
On the first round of combat, the fighter drinks a potion of haste, gaining +1 AC, +1 on attack rolls, an extra attack at his highest bonus with a full attack, and +30 ft of movement (60 ft total). He then can charge (moving up to 120 ft, gaining +2 on the attack roll and -2 to AC) and attack with a shield bash (gaining a +2 bonus on the free bull rush). Then, he starts full attacking with longsword (+20/+20/+14/+10 plus Str bonus) and shield (+19/+14 plus Str bonus), using the free bull rushes to shove his opponents around and set up AoOs. Alternately, if the opponents are flying, he can either attack with his bow or drink a potion of fly to engage in aerial battle. The potions of growth are used when facing tough opponents or when wishing to maximize AoO potential (reach + Combat Reflexes).
Do you want me to post an archer focused fighter to compare with the bow-using variant of your cleric above? Without any additional bonuses from feats or Weapon Training, and giving up a +1 on the weapon enhancement bonus, the fighter still has a total attack bonus of 2 less than the cleric with divine power and only does 5 points less damage per hit. Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Training, in combination, grant the fighter 12 a +4 to attack rolls and +6 to damage rolls on their primary weapon choice.
Your MT is casting enlarge person. Second round Your MT is casting shield. Your MT is casting haste. Your MT is wondering what happened to all the enemies.
what I am boggled by, is why anybody would want to spend 5-6 spells trying to be frontline combatant when your party members are crying out for healing or fireballs.
When people start recycling debunked arguments, you have to wonder about their reading comprehension. I have already addressed that 1 minute per level duration spells are supposed to be cast before initiative is even rolled.
If you wish to discuss GM fiat or playing style (no preparation/spellcasting before combat), that's fine. Do not try to pass it off as system mechanic restriction; especially since preparing before combat is a valid option in the RAW and, in fact, part of the baseline assumptions in the CR system.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. However, if you can't back them up with system mechanics, or they can be proven incorrect using the RAW, don't expect people to respect them.
to man in black
1. I'm extending spells so they're up for 24 hours because sometimes you don't know when you're getting in a fight like maybe when you're sleeping.
2. Defending isn't cheese, it's a core ability.
3. I like bucklers because they leave a hand free to cast and are useable with a bow, which is a great weapon.
4. I was replying to a comment about keeping up with the fighter.
5. I can tell you think you're really smart, you also have a really bad habit of coming off as conceited and rude. You might want to look into it, because it's going to cause you a lot of trouble someday.
6. If you look closely at the new divine power you will notice the bonus is no longer from strength, it's a luck bonus to attack/damage rolls. This means a level 20 cleric wielding a greatsword gets a +6hit/+6damage, not +6hit/+9 damage. This means with a bow you get the same bonuses +6hit/+6 damage and don't have to have another mighty bow. This is I think the new best tactic for a damage dealing cleric. You can use a buckler with a bow and have really nice AC. With medium armor you're going to want a mithril breastplate and 20 dex(modified) which qualifies you for all the archery feats. I haven't tested it yet, but IMO will be very powerful.
To dungeonchess
You've suggested the fighter gets mithral gear. I agree that is a good tactic. I don't think it beats the overall versatiliy of the cleric, which is more powerful than the MT going back to the original thread. Being able to debuff enemies before slaughtering them I think is where the cleric pulls ahead of the fighter. Also note that once the cleric gets miracle at level 17 he can cast any spell the mystic theurge can at level 20.
To all. This thread is getting very hostile. I am done posting here, you can read my points, debunk them or agree with them if you like. I for one have better things to do with my time if people can't be civil.
Smurf
How can you says its Smurf, when the math proves it's smuftity smurf!
:)
When people start recycling debunked arguments, you have to wonder about their reading comprehension. I have already addressed that 1 minute per level duration spells are supposed to be cast before initiative is even rolled.And then you were laughed out of the room.
One more time: If you wish to discuss GM fiat or playing style (no preparation/spellcasting before combat), that's fine. Do not try to pass it off as system mechanic restriction; especially since preparing before combat is a valid option in the RAW and, in fact, part of the baseline assumptions in the CR system.
You have not refuted [b]any/b] system mechanic argument in this thread with anything other than GM fiat or playing style restrictions. Let us know when you actually want to discuss system mechanics, instead of just spouting off without proof.
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On general multiclassing: It's really just a matter of customization, but for casters, it's hard to validate it unless you're using casting as a secondary trick, rather than full caster. There's a few base classes that do what multiclassing does, so you might want to check that out before messing with a good character concept.
On MT: Do you have time to cast all these pre buffs before every combat? Every single one?
If you're going up against the BBEG, yeah, you can probably guess when, but a lot of monsters use stealth when they attack, meaning you won't have the warning need'd to pile buffs on each other.
I've tried the MT, and I have to say, it takes a long trip through the valley of suck (where your char is far worse than it should be) even with stuff like Magical Knack and Pratice'd Spellcaster.
It also seems like all that multi classing would be murder on your BAB, making melee seem even less attractive.
I for one, don't like it, as well as having a char who's at his best when he can spiffy up for about 5 or so rounds ahead of time. One ambush attack and he's worthless, and probably the best target for any enemy to rip apart, especially if he's still taking time to buff himself or cast any "Below" level damage spells at anything worth fighting. CR may allow for buffing, but it also allows for ambush as well.
But I have to admit, this argument has brought up some valid buff points that I plan on using in my game, so I thank either side of this argument for the ideas. Kudos, all!
[
One more time: If you wish to discuss GM fiat or playing style (no preparation/spellcasting before combat), that's fine. Do not try to pass it off as system mechanic restriction; especially since preparing before combat is a valid option in the RAW and, in fact, part of the baseline assumptions in the CR system.
You have not refuted [b]any/b] system mechanic argument in this thread with anything other than GM fiat or playing style restrictions. Let us know when you actually want to discuss system mechanics, instead of just spouting off without proof.
I'm curious, can you cite a reference/reason why you believe the CR system has as a baseline assumption that you can cast minute per level buffs before each combat?
We seldom buff ourselfs before combat, because we seldom know when combat is comming. But then again some GM allow rogues to take 20 on perception ALL the time. Searching a room, cave or a whole dungeon using "take 20" is not really realistic, nor is buffing before every fight or even before most fights.
/IMHO
To dungeonchess
You've suggested the fighter gets mithral gear. I agree that is a good tactic. I don't think it beats the overall versatiliy of the cleric, which is more powerful than the MT going back to the original thread. Being able to debuff enemies before slaughtering them I think is where the cleric pulls ahead of the fighter.
The cleric is only incrementally better with buff spells (at specific levels) than the mystic theurge with the Magical Knack trait (the mystic theurge's cleric CL lags one level behind the straight cleric at the spell effect break-points). At CL 12, magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power all get a bump; so a 12th level cleric gets +3/+3/+4 one level before the mystic theurge can (at 13th character level, cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 7).
Anyway, the 12th level mystic theurge with Magical Knack (cleric) (cleric CL 11, wizard CL 9; access to 5th level cleric spells and 5th level wizard spells), Arcane Armor Training, and Arcane Armor Mastery obtains the following gear: mithral breastplate for 4,200 gp and a primary combat weapon (probably a heavy mace or their deity's favored weapon). Next, the mystic theurge scribes the following scrolls: two magic vestment (CL 8) for 300 gp each (600 gp total), two freedom of movement (CL 9) for 450 gp each (900 gp total), two flame strike (CL 11) for 687 gp, 5 sp each (1,375 gp total), eight enlarge person (CL 6) for 75 gp each (600 gp total), eight shield (CL 6) for 75 gp each (600 gp total), eight blur (CL 6) for 150 gp each (1,200 gp total), two false life (CL 9) for 225 gp each (550 gp total), two greater magic weapon (wizard, CL 8) for 300 gp each (600 gp total), eight haste (CL 6) for 225 gp each (1,800 gp), two heroism (CL 9) for 337 gp, 5 sp each (675 gp total), two stoneskin (CL 9) for 700 gp each (1,400 gp total), two overland flight (CL 9) for 562 gp, 5 sp each (1,125 gp total), and one teleport (CL 9) for 562 gp, 5 sp (making sure that there is a "very familiar" location, such as a home church or sanctum, as a destination within 900 miles). So far, the mystic theurge has spent 16,017 gp, 5 sp (plus weapon cost) on gear, only about twice as much as the 8,517 (plus weapon cost) spent by the cleric; a difference of 7,500 gp out of 108,000 gp (if the Wealth by Level table is followed). The mystic theurge also has available duplicates of all long-term buffs, in case they are dispelled or run out, and the teleport scroll to instantly return the party to a safe location if necessary (with only a 3% chance of error).
The mystic theurge casts greater magic weapon, magic vestment on the mithral breastplate, and overland flight from a scrolls, preserving his prepared spell slots. On reaching the adventuring location/cave/dungeon, the mystic theurge casts false life, freedom of movement, heroism, and stoneskin from scrolls, again preserving his prepared spell slots.
The mystic theurge's baseline is AC 18+Dex bonus (and DR 10/adamantine) and an attack roll +10+Str or Dex bonus (+10/+5 on a full attack) with the weapon (damage X+4+Str bonus); the mystic theurge also has +1d10+9 (avg. 14-15) temporary hp, a +2 bonus on all skill checks, a +2 bonus to saving throws, flies at a speed of 40 ft, and retains all prepared spells. The cleric, to recap, has a baseline of AC 23+Dex bonus and an attack roll of 12+Str or Dex bonus (+12/+7 on a full attack) with the weapon (damage X+3+Str); the cleric has also expended two 5th level spells and two 4th level spells.
If given 18 seconds to prepare, up to 5 minutes before the start of a combat, the mystic theurge can cast blur, enlarge person, and shield from scrolls, giving him +4 AC (for AC 22+Dex bonus), +2 Str, -2 Dex, large size (dropping AC to 20+original Dex bonus), and an effect that causes 20% of all attacks to automatically miss; again, expending no prepared spells. At the start of every combat, the mystic theurge casts haste from a scroll (on himself and the rest of the party) for +1 AC (for AC 21+original Dex bonus), +1 on attack rolls (+11) and Ref saves (stacks with the +2 from heroism), an extra attack on a full attack (+11/+11/+6), and +30 ft to all movement (70 ft fly); since divine favor (a 1st level spell) still provides most of the same benefit as divine power (a 4th level spell) at CL 11, he also casts divine favor for +3 on attack rolls (+14 total or +14/+14/+9 on a full attack, plus original Str bonus, with a melee weapon; +12 total or +12/+12/+7, plus original Dex bonus, with a missile weapon) and damage (large weapon damage Y+8+original Str bonus; if the weapon is used with two hands, which the mystic theurge can do without losing the AC from the shield spell, that's Y+7+1.5 times total Str bonus). The cleric, recapping again, casts divine power to gain a +4 on attack rolls (+16 total, or +16/+11 on a full attack) and damage (X+7+Str bonus).
By preparing for each combat a few minutes ahead of time and spending one extra combat round to cast haste (benefiting the entire party), which the extra movement (70 ft for the hasted mystic theurge vs. 20 ft for the cleric wearing a breastplate) more than compensates for in most situations, the mystic theurge ends up with an AC of two less than the cleric (unless the cleric is punching enemies with his defending gauntlet, which reduces base weapon damage to 1d3 and reduces attack and damage bonuses for each "plus" used to boost AC), has DR 10/adamantine, has 20% of all attacks against him miss automatically (which more than compensates for a 10% greater chance of being hit from an AC of 2 less), hits 10% less often (20% less often with a missile weapon) per attack (but gets an extra attack at the highest bonus), and does more damage on a successful hit. Even if the cleric casts righteous might (a 5th level spell, of which the cleric only has two prepared slots left, plus a domain spell), the cleric is still about the same as the mystic theurge (except for movement, where the cleric doesn't even come close, even with air walk): AC 21+original Dex bonus for both, cleric DR 5/evil vs. mystic theurge DR 10/adamantine, cleric gains 24 hp vs. attacks against the mystic theurge automatically miss 20% of the time, cleric melee attack roll of +17 or +17/+12 (plus original Str bonus) or missile attack roll of +14 or +14/+9 (plus original Dex bonus) vs. mystic theurge melee attack roll of +14 or +14/+14/+9 (plus original Str bonus) or missile attack roll of +12 or +12/+12/+7 (plus original Dex bonus), cleric weapon damage of Y+9+original Str bonus vs. mystic theurge weapon damage of Y+8+original Str damage or Y+7+1.5 times total Str bonus).
This is one point I haven't raised explicitly, but deserves mention: I have been showing the mystic theurge as mainly using 1 minute/level spells only on the sorcerer/wizard list when preparing before each fight. The reason for this is to highlight the difference between the cleric and the mystic theurge. The cleric can use a variety of 1 min/level buffs to prepare before combat if he wishes (i.e., aid, align weapon, bear's endurance, bull's strength, etc.). However, the mystic theurge probably already has access to all of those spells (possibly even on both spell lists). Apart from a few combinations (such as antilife shell for an archer cleric), they either can be by both the cleric and the mystic theurge when preparing for a fight (having no effect on the relative "power level" between the two) or are high level spells that can't be cast for every fight (and the cleric is probably better off using one or more magic items to gain the same or equivalent effect, rather than expending limited spell slots).
Also note that once the cleric gets miracle at level 17 he can cast any spell the mystic theurge can at level 20.
Of course, at level 16, the mystic theurge gains Spell Synthesis. So one level before the cleric can cast miracle, the mystic theurge is casting two spells with a single action (for example, a CL 15 flame strike for 15d6 and an Empowered fireball for 15d6, a Combined Spell version of black tentacles plus acid fog which the mystic theurge surrounds with a 20 ft radius blade barrier on the next round, etc.).
6. If you look closely at the new divine power you will notice the bonus is no longer from strength, it's a luck bonus to attack/damage rolls. This means a level 20 cleric wielding a greatsword gets a +6hit/+6damage, not +6hit/+9 damage. This means with a bow you get the same bonuses +6hit/+6 damage and don't have to have another mighty bow. This is I think the new best tactic for a damage dealing cleric. You can use a buckler with a bow and have really nice AC. With medium armor you're going to want a mithril breastplate and 20 dex(modified) which qualifies you for all the archery feats. I haven't tested it yet, but IMO will be very powerful.I won't argue with you about archer clerics, though; cleric archers leave non-caster archers very far behind, as always.
Except, of course, the archer specialized fighter.
I'm curious, can you cite a reference/reason why you believe the CR system has as a baseline assumption that you can cast minute per level buffs before each combat?One more time: If you wish to discuss GM fiat or playing style (no preparation/spellcasting before combat), that's fine. Do not try to pass it off as system mechanic restriction; especially since preparing before combat is a valid option in the RAW and, in fact, part of the baseline assumptions in the CR system.
You have not refuted any system mechanic argument in this thread with anything other than GM fiat or playing style restrictions. Let us know when you actually want to discuss system mechanics, instead of just spouting off without proof.
We seldom buff ourselfs before combat, because we seldom know when combat is comming. But then again some GM allow rogues to take 20 on perception ALL the time. Searching a room, cave or a whole dungeon using "take 20" is not really realistic, nor is buffing before every fight or even before most fights.
/IMHO
Just about every mid to high level party will have access to arcane eye, clairaudience/clairvoyance, commune, contact other plane, divination, legend lore, prying eyes, scrying, vision, etc. as well as other means of gathering information. In most cases (barring GM fiat "divinations don't work" or other constraints on time, location, etc.), they should be able to obtain the majority of details about the inhabitants and layout before they start kicking down doors. Few encounters will be a surprise for a party that does their research and planning before (and during) an adventure.
As far as CR system assuming 1 min per level buffs, it comes down to the original "resource use" definition in the 3.5 DMG on pg. 49-50, Easy, Easy if Handled Properly, Challenging, Very Difficult, and Overpowering. Easy- "The group should be able to handle an almost limitless number of these encounters." Easy if Handled Properly- "There's... a trick the PC's must discover to have a good chance of victory... If not handled properly, this kind of encounter becomes challenging or even very difficult." Challenging- "The average adventuring group should be able to handle four challenging encounters before they run low on spells, hit points, and other resources." (emphasis mine) Very Difficult- "One PC might very well die." Overpowering- "The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose." The "[running] low on spells... and other resources" can come from expending buff spells, combat spells, healing spells, or all three; for some groups, it's one specific category; for others, it's all three. Considering that many of the 1 min per level buffs are 1st or 2nd level, those spell slots can often be more usefully expended as buffs than as combat or healing spells as you move into high level play. Also, various discussions on high level play state that the majority of encounters assume a prepared party. In fact, that's one of the key gripes about the CR system in high level play: it's "swingy;" a challenging encounter for a prepared party can easily result in a TPK against a party that hasn't had a chance to prepare fully; conversely, a challenging encounter for an un- (or under-) prepared party is a cakewalk for a prepared one.
Of course, at level 16, the mystic theurge gains Spell Synthesis. So one level before the cleric can cast miracle, the mystic theurge is casting two spells with a single action (for example, a CL 15 flame strike for 15d6 and an Empowered fireball for 15d6, a Combined Spell version of black tentacles plus acid fog which the mystic theurge surrounds with a 20 ft radius blade barrier on the next round, etc.).And the cleric has the high-level spell slots to be Quickening spells, whereas the MT mostly doesn't.
So, is a 17th level cleric really going to use his one 9th level spell slot on a Quickened flame strike (where the mystic theurge cast the fireball/flamestrike combo up to four times per day)? Not to mention that the mystic theurge can pull off the two spell trick using 6th level, 7th level, etc. spells without a 75,500 gp Quicken metamagic rod or a 170,000 gp greater Quicken metamagic rod.
the real value of the MT is not scroll/wand access (which is had cheaply with a one-level dip or skill investment in UMD).
Please re-read the rules on Use Magic Device (PF RPG pg. 108-109) the DCs are quite high for a skill that doesn't allow you to take 10. It's a major investment that doesn't become a worthwhile regular action (90-95% success rate on the easiest checks) until you can attain a +17 or +18 on the skill check (probably around 12th-13th level, without an investment in the feats Magical Aptitude and/or Skill Focus). The one level dip will allow use of spell trigger devices (wands) without a check, but spell completion items (scrolls) require the minimum caster level in the class to be able to cast the spell or there is a chance of failure; see pg. 458.
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All of which is based on the assumption that 1 min per level spells can't be cast outside of combat and that there's no "down time" between adventures (and scrolls can be scribed very quickly at 1,000 gp market cost per day, 2 hours if 250 gp or less). This is a GM fiat/play style issue, not a RAW issue. Leave it at that.
I can just see it. You burn 500-1000 gold worth of scrolls, wands, etc kick in the door only to find 3 zombies or a permanent ghost sound effect.
The problem with relying on buffs, in particular ones you pay for is sometimes you don't get a chance to apply them, or sometimes you burn resources when you don't need to. Buffing before an encounter starts is valid but it's only situationally good. You are essentially expending a bunch of resources to catch up to what a fighter can do out of the box.
Even if you can outdo the fighter in some situations where you have the time to buff your baseline is so much lower you are better focusing on things which are good at.
The problem with relying on buffs, in particular ones you pay for is sometimes you don't get a chance to apply them, or sometimes you burn resources when you don't need to. Buffing before an encounter starts is valid but it's only situationally good. You are essentially expending a bunch of resources to catch up to what a fighter can do out of the box.
Even if you can outdo the fighter in some situations where you have the time to buff your baseline is so much lower you are better focusing on things which are good at.
This pretty much applies to both the cleric and the mystic theurge. In both cases, the caster is burning resources (consumable items and/or spell slots) to do most of the same things a fighter can accomplish with feats and class abilities. There are a few exceptions (spells to increase size, grant DR, give additional movement, etc.), but in many cases it's probably more efficient to cast those spells on the fighter, instead of casting 3-4 spells to catch up to the fighter and then some more spells to give extra abilities. If the player of the caster protests spending actions, consumable items/item charges, and/or spell slots buffing the fighter, the fighter can always either 1) invest in potions or 2) offer to pay the creation cost +10-20% to a fellow party member with item creation feats (Brew Potion, Craft Wand, Craft Wondrous Item, Scribe Scroll; this is a win-win solution, since the fighter gets buffing items at less than the market price and the item creator gets some extra money).
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Since this is at least the second time you've raised this issue, I will address it in detail. I'm making some assumptions based on your comments earlier, so feel free to correct my estimate of what ability scores you feel a cleric should have. Ground rules: 15 point buy, PF RPG races.
Human Cleric: 12 Str (2 pts), 10 Dex (0 pts), 14 Con (5 pts), 8 Int (-2 pts), 16 Wis (5 pts; +2 racial bonus), 14 Cha (5 pts); switch Str and Dex for a bow-wielding cleric; all ability score advancements in Wis; favored class is cleric (+1 hp per level); skill ranks in Knowledge (Religion) and Use Magical Device.
Human Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge: 12 Str (2 pts), 10 Dex (0 pts), 14 Con (5 pts), 14 Int (5 pts), 15 Wis (3 pts; +2 racial bonus), 10 Cha (0 pts); switch Str and Dex for a bow-wielding cleric; split ability score advancements between Int (+2) and Wis (+3) over 20 levels; favored class is cleric (+1 skill rank per level); skill ranks in Diplomacy, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Religion), Linguistics (when Int hits 16), Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.
I think the overall point is that doing so consistantly is pretty unreliable and terribly noncost effective.
"Unreliable" is a GM fiat/play style issue, not a RAW issue.
"Terribly noncost effective," now: The mystic theurge spent 11,817 gp, 5 sp on consumables; over the course of eight Average (Table 12-1, PF RPG pg. 397) encounters, the party earns (Table 12-5, PF RPG pg. 399) 48,000 gp using the Slow advancement rate (slightly better than breaking even, assuming a party of 4 and the use of all consumables), 72,000 gp using the Medium advancement rate (6,000 gp ahead), and 108,000 gp using the Fast advancement rate (15,000 gp ahead). It all depends on which advancement rate you use; if you are using the Slow advancement rate, then heavy use of consumables is not that useful, but it can be in the other two rates.
What level are these characters? I'm wondering, with those stats if they can honestly even cast their upper level spell slots. Unfortunatly, that MT just has no money to purchase (or make) a +Wis or + Int item, (and very likely has run the entire party into a deficet).
The ability scores are the ones at initial creation. The ability score advancements characters receive every four levels (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th) are allocated as stated: the cleric puts them all against Wis (17 Wis at 4th, 18 Wis at 8th, etc.) while the mystic theurge splits them between Int and Wis (16 Wis at 4th, 15 Int at 8th, 16 Int at 12th, etc.).
If the Wealth By Level guidelines are followed, the cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 6 above still has almost 92,000 gp unallocated. Are you assuming that a 10,000 gp market price (5,000 gp creation cost) headband of mental prowess (+2 Int, +2 Wis) is unaffordable? Unless the campaign is using the Slow advancement rate, the mystic theurge can afford to re-scribe all of the scrolls and create/purchase additional items.
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But thats if you build it starting at level 12 (and I'm not so sure that is accurate). Earning those levels means your spending most of your money in order to make and buy those scrolls, wands, etc. . ., not to mention that you are not counting all those wizard spells you probably want to buy to scribe, material components, the fact that when you trade in an item for a better one you are not getting full price value, and a lot of little things that already weigh-down the single class caster.
I still honestly think you are defending this too hard to see the many drawbacks. I se no reason not to stick single class cleric (or whatever) and heck take leadership for a Wizard cohort, if that is really what you want. Then you really have twice as many spells pretty much all the way, not wasting all your feats, and you can still burn through scrolls and wands, except it is done in twice the time.
But thats if you build it starting at level 12 (and I'm not so sure that is accurate). Earning those levels means your spending most of your money in order to make and buy those scrolls, wands, etc. . ., not to mention that you are not counting all those wizard spells you probably want to buy to scribe, material components, the fact that when you trade in an item for a better one you are not getting full price value, and a lot of little things that already weigh-down the single class caster.
Unless the campaign is using the Slow advancement rate, a character can afford to allocate about 10% of their total wealth on consumables and still be able to improve/replace gear (at Slow advancement, about 5% is a decent rule of thumb). On the other points:
"wizard spells" - The wizard starts with all 0-level spells and 3+Int bonus 1st level spells and gains two additional spells per level of casting ability (all at no cost, see PF RPG pg. 79). A cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 6 automatically has all 0-level, 5+Int bonus 1st level, 4 2nd level, 4 3rd level, 4 4th level, and 2 5th level spells of his choice, just from advancing in level. The spells I named are: 1st- enlarge person, shield, 2nd- blur, false life, 3rd- greater magic weapon, haste, heroism, 4th- stoneskin, 5th- overland flight. That still leaves 3+Int 1st level, 2 2nd level, 1 3rd level, 3 4th level, and 1 5th level spells to be determined.
"material components" - the material component cost for stoneskin was included in the scroll creation cost (as per the scribing rules). None of the other named spells requires costly material components, so a 5 gp Spell Component Pouch is all that's required.
"selling items at half value" - that is already a consideration factored into the Encounter Reward system and the Wealth By Level guidelines.
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Here's the thing, though. Based on the average advancement, you are saying that essentually you can devote 10% of your total treasure for consumable spell items, (potions, wands, and scrolls). However, you are looking at 1.) 13 encounters per level (so basically every single level you own "the bank" an additional 30% of what you should have made and yourself have 0 GP and also that you are counting on being extremely lucky and gaining all the items (scrolls, wands, etc. . .) that you need to burn through almost daily.
Add to the fact that, starting at level 1, you do not have these option, and really may not have them until near level 3 or 4 in any real way, it just does not work. Even granted that PF has gone further and lets you recharge staffs, which would be a lot better than suggesting you go through the motions of buffing yourself up every 10 mins or so.
I've removed a few posts. Debate is welcome here, but insults and threats of violence are simply uncalled for.
Threats of violence? I must have missed it.
Threat, in this era, is a very loosely defined term. Wishing someone ill is threatening them, as is expressing such wishes.
I'm not sure how this conversation turned to a debate on how effective Mystic Theurge can be in melee. There are classes which are good at melee and the Theurge is clearly not well suited for it.
If you want to talk about what MT is BEST at is buffing other characters, casting utility spells, acting as a secondary healer, and casting low level battle field control spells during combat. They aren't going to be nearly as good as people dedicated to these roles but they will be pretty fair once they get out of the valley of suck (3 levels before and 3-4 levels after taking the class).
I kind of peg Mystic Theurge as interesting NPCs, either as opponents or allies. As enemies you can bump their ECL up by one or two to make them viable. As an NPC ally you can make a single character who can act as an effective buffer/ casting ally without outshining any of the PCs in the party.
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I don't know about barbarian of hand, but both the ranger and monk have awesome 20th level capstones. Monk becomes an outsider with DR 10/chaotic and has a bunch of cool abilities by then.
While the ranger has a chance to instakill a favored enemy and can track at full speed, and again a lot of little benefits built up.
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I don't know if they are better than each other. Barbarians get things of bonuses from Level 1 like the increased HP and your forgetting about the +8 Str and Con they can switch on and off now, and the last rage trick.
Also, one of the most devistating characters I ever made was a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian. Between a charging, raging, spiked chain with sneak attack against a flat footed room, with great cleave and combat reflexes, it was extremely broken.