Shifting-focused Druid?

[A Man In Black]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

I like the test where the druid dominates the dire lion and has it attack the earth elemental, then becomes one himself and goes after it also.

Hey, I've been suggesting that you lean on spellcasting more than wild shaping since my first post. ¬_¬

[grasshopper_ea]

A Man In Black wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

I like the test where the druid dominates the dire lion and has it attack the earth elemental, then becomes one himself and goes after it also.

Hey, I've been suggesting that you lean on spellcasting more than wild shaping since my first post. ¬_¬

You have also been stating that wild shape is not useful in melee. It is a bonus to your stats that stacks with almost any other bonus your character can expect to get. My 3.5 druid casts more than wild shapes, usually summoning, because it typically benefits the party more, but I see wild shape as a very big boost to the character, even with it being toned down.

[A Man In Black]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

You have also been stating that wild shape is not useful in melee. It is a bonus to your stats that stacks with almost any other bonus your character can expect to get. My 3.5 druid casts more than wild shapes, usually summoning, because it typically benefits the party more, but I see wild shape as a very big boost to the character, even with it being toned down.

A Man In Black, first page wrote:

Now, I'm not saying that druids can't get things accomplished in melee, but rather than hanging in the front like a paladin or fighter or barb or cleric, you'll need to play more like a rogue or ranger and wait for unfair fights.

A Man In Black, also on the first page wrote:

Instead, I'm advising the OP to focus on shifting as a problem-solving tool, since the balance of your fight-winning mojo is now more heavily weighted towards in spells. Druids can still finish a melee fight, but getting stuck in it is exceedingly dangerous and there isn't a lot you can do about that until you can afford +4 equiv armor.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

A Man In Black wrote:

It means that the druid is completely hopeless against the two DR 5/whatever foes[snip]

wouldn't amulet of mighty fist +3, +4 or +5 allow a druid to penetrate various Damage Reductions?

[A Man In Black]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

wouldn't amulet of mighty fist +3, +4 or +5 allow a druid to penetrate various Damage Reductions?

No. Magic weapons do that, and Amulets of Mighty Fists are not magic weapons. (It makes for a reasonable houserule.) Also, level 5 druids (like my example) cannot, as a rule, afford 45K or more gold for a magic item.

Also, one of the example DRs is DR 5/-.

[insaneogeddon]

The point is there in melee druids need party backing "in order to be a melee combatant, you damn well had better be capable of sticking it out in melee with level appropriate threats" however this hardly means you need to engage in static melee and "stick it out" on their terms or play away from your strengths.

Druids have woodland stride and longstrider, magic fang, terrain control, healing etc. They also heve strong will saves and larger forms than most can manage which usually has a single attack that does str x 1.5 and does P/S/B damage.

All this points to Spring Attack then Vital Strike.

Only a monk will have your move flexibility or be even close to your base damage die and their better off with their super flurries. Why compete in areas others skeletons better support? Fine fighters standing still will best you in melee but they won't bouncing in and out. Be it a croc or a dire boar with magic fang or a t-rex : vital strike and spring attack are made for druids.

The big damage, magic fang, mixed damage type makes DR far less an issue. Fights shouldn't stretch. If they do... bet on the warrior with the bigger will save and healing in my experience.

Lets face it Paizo mixed up the bag. 2 wpn or rapid shot attacks are now great for paladins (their like pre-formed arcane archers), and fighters more than rangers. Some post better for barbarians as well. Stuff changes. The old pounce druid is less where its at... The old board rorts don't fit. Time will tell.

[A Man In Black]

insaneogeddon wrote:

All this points to Spring Attack then Vital Strike.

They don't work together, and that's 15 levels worth of feats.

[insaneogeddon]

At +4 and +6 bab. Easy to get WELL before 15th level. Why cannot they be used together?

Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: You can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses.

[grasshopper_ea]

A Man In Black wrote:

insaneogeddon wrote:

All this points to Spring Attack then Vital Strike.

They don't work together, and that's 15 levels worth of feats.

Vital strike lets you use a have extra dice on a single attack action. Spring attack is a single melee attack, not a standard action. I think you're thinking of vital strike not combining with charge/cleave.

[Hartbaine]

So... just make a Shifter Prestige Class for Pathfinder.

Use it to further augment the shifting powers a druid already has.

[hogarth]

A Man In Black, also on the first page wrote:

Druids can still finish a melee fight, but getting stuck in it is exceedingly dangerous and there isn't a lot you can do about that until you can afford +4 equiv armor.

If you're willing to wander around in a particular animal form all day, regular barding also does the trick (and is a heck of a lot cheaper than Wild armor). It doesn't work with all wild shapes, though (snake barding? air elemental barding?).

[insaneogeddon]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

insaneogeddon wrote:

All this points to Spring Attack then Vital Strike.

They don't work together, and that's 15 levels worth of feats.

Vital strike lets you use a have extra dice on a single attack action. Spring attack is a single melee attack, not a standard action. I think you're thinking of vital strike not combining with charge/cleave.

Surely not. If you can move and vital strike or vital strike then move then spring attck which allows you to move before and after an attack means you can spring attack and vital strike.

Just like you can in a full attack where each attack is an attack action but more than one makes it a full attack.

[grasshopper_ea]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Surely not. If you can move and vital strike or vital strike then move then spring attck which allows you to move before and after an attack means you can spring attack and vital strike.

Just like you can in a full attack where each attack is an attack action but more than one makes it a full attack.

I think your post makes sense, but it's like listening to who's on first :)

[Hartbaine]

It also has nothing to do with Druids or their shapeshifting abilities.

[insaneogeddon]

Hartbaine wrote:

It also has nothing to do with Druids or their shapeshifting abilities.

Feats (and stats) can make a shifting focused druid a viable option, unlike 3.5 they need to put effort into melee ability so its of some relevance as both their stats and feats are of real importance (as previous posters proved: base druid shifting is pwetty unimpressive in combat comparisons pre-feat selection).

Its the only way I can see to answer the OP question which infered a desire to be a "combat monster" as unfortunately I lack the wit to see how your posts approach to the question answers this.

[A Man In Black]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Feats (and stats) can make a shifting focused druid a viable option, unlike 3.5 they need to put effort into melee ability so its of some relevance as both their stats and feats are of real importance (as previous posters proved: base druid shifting is pwetty unimpressive in combat comparisons pre-feat selection).

Its the only way I can see to answer the OP question which infered a desire to be a "combat monster" as unfortunately I lack the wit to see how your posts approach to the question answers this.

Basically, no, they can't. You're trying to do the rogue spring attack thing, and while Vital Strike makes it less terrible than it used to be, lemme tell you that 6d6 plus str and miscellaneous doesn't cut it at the levels where you can actually do it, especially when you are a full spellcaster.

It's stylish and cool and the GM should probably accommodate it but it's mechanically weak.

Do I need to stat up a level 12-ish druid to illustrate?

[Randall Jhen]

A Man In Black wrote:

Do I need to stat up a level 12-ish druid to illustrate?

I built one to see how it would compare to the PCs in the one-shot I ran. Haven't taken a close look at it yet, though.

My take on a druid:

Common, Orc, Giant, Druidic; Darkvision 60 ft., Perception +18
AL N

Half-orc druid 12

Str 22 = 15 + 2 race + 1 stat point + 4 enhancement
Dex 12 = 12
Con 16 = 14 + 2 enhancement
Int 13 = 13
Wis 16 = 14 + 2 stat points
Cha 8 = 8

Speed 30 ft.
Init +1
HP 118 = 58 + 36 + 12 + 12
Armor Class 26 = 10 + 1 Dex + 10 armor + 3 shield + 1 insight + 1 deflection [bramble armor (free action) 12 rounds/day: any foe that hits with an unarmed strike or a melee weapon without reach takes 1d6+6 points of piercing damage]
touch 13
flat-footed 25
CMD 29 = 10 + 12 + 6 + 1
BAB +9/4

Fort +12 = 8 + 3 + 1
Ref +6 = 4 + 1 + 1
Will +12 = 8 + 3 + 1
+4 vs. spell-like and supernatural abilities of fey
Immune to poison

Attacks
Unarmed: +15/+10 | 1d3+6 plus 1d6 cold plus 1d6 electricity, 20/x2 | Wooden fist (free action) 6 rounds/day: unarmed strikes don't provoke, deal lethal damage, +6 to damage.

Racial Traits: Darkvision 60 ft., intimidating, orc blood, orc ferocity, weapon familiarity (greataxe, falchion, orc weapons).

Skills (5/level) (Format: Name + total bonus = ranks + ability + class skill + check penalty + misc. bonuses; situational modifiers in brackets):
Concentration +15 = 12 + 3a [+4m to cast defensively]
Fly +11 = 8r + 1a + 2cl
Intimidate +6 = 4r - 1a + 2m
Knowledge (geography) +16 = 12r + 1a + 3cl
Knowledge (nature) +18 = 12r + 1a + 3cl + 2m
Perception +18 = 12r + 3a + 3cl
Survival +20 = 12r + 3a + 3cl + 2m
Wild Empathy +11 = 12 - 1a

Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Defensive Combat Training, Natural Spell, Toughness, Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear; light and medium armor and nontower shields, must be nonmetallic

Class Abilities: Nature bond (plant domain), nature sense, orisons, wild empathy, woodland stride, trackless step, resist nature's lure, wild shape 5/day (animals diminutive-huge, beast shape 3; elementals small-huge, elemental body 4; plants small-huge, plant shape 3), venom immunity.

Magic: Base DC = 13 + spell level
0th (4): Resistance, Guidance, Flare, Stabilize.
1st (4): Endure elements, longstrider, obscuring mist x2 + entangle
2nd (4): Cat's grace, lesser restoration, flaming sphere x2 + barkskin
3rd (4): Greater magic fang, sleet storm, spike growth, call lightning + plant growth
4th (3): Flame strike, ice storm, spike stones + command plants
5th (3): Death ward, stoneskin, wall of thorns + wall of thorns
6th (2): Stone tell, mass cure light wounds + repel wood

Equipment: +1 wild dragonhide (red) full plate, +1 wild dragonhide (red) heavy shield, belt of physical might (Strength +4/Constitution +2), amulet of mighty fists (frost/shock), ring of sustenance, dusty rose ioun stone, ring of protection +1, wand of cure moderate wounds (2d8+5, 50 charges), scroll of greater dispel magic, scroll of tree stride, scroll of reincarnate, cloak of resistance +1, 2 scrolls cat's grace, scroll of protection from energy x3, scroll of call lightning storm x2.

Money: 86 gp.

To be fair, there are a couple of things people might nitpick: the wild shield (since wild specifically states "armor bonus," not "shield bonus"), and the fact that wooden fist only applies to unarmed strikes, not natural attacks, per RAW. But he still looks decent to me.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

wild shield +1? why? go for animated darkwood shield +2 for the same price...

[Ceefood]

is that belt of physical might legal ? - I was always under the impression that all the stats on an item like this had to be the same so all +2 or +4 etc not a combination of both

if it is can someone show where it says it is

thanks
Cee

[Randall Jhen]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

wild shield +1? why? go for animated darkwood shield +2 for the same price...

Animated only lasts for four rounds. I'd probably drop the shield and bump the ring of protection up to a +3. It'll lose 1 AC, but it's probably more "legal" than the wild shield.

Ceefood wrote:

is that belt of physical might legal ? - I was always under the impression that all the stats on an item like this had to be the same so all +2 or +4 etc not a combination of both

if it is can someone show where it says it is

thanks
Cee

The belt doesn't appear in the book, but it's priced appropriately. Figure it as a belt of giant strength +4 (cost = 16,000 gp) plus a belt of mighty constitution +2 (cost = 4,000 gp * 1.5 to add a second quality to a single item) for a total of 22,000 gp.

[AlKir]

Hartbaine wrote:

So... just make a Shifter Prestige Class for Pathfinder.

Use it to further augment the shifting powers a druid already has.

I'm halfway there. I have a player who is really, really wanting to take the Master of Many Forms from the Complete Adventurer. He, however, understands the changes to wildshape introduced in Pathfinder and knows that in combat he will be a support fighter similar to a rouge, monk, bard, or ranger (Debatable wether or not its a front line fighter now). I've included it below. Major drawbacks include the need to design a whole new slew of sorcerer/wizard polymorph spells to support things.

Master of Many Forms(A Work in Progress)

Spoiler:

Master of Many Forms
Hit Die: d8
Requirements
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Special: Wildshape Class Feature
Skills
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature, Perception, Spellcraft, Stealth, Swim, Survival
Skill Points at each level: 4 + Int Modifier

Level Base Atk Fort Ref Will Abilities
1 +0 +1 +1 +0 Shifter's Speech, Wild Shape(Alter Self).
2 +1 +2 +2 +0 Wild Shape (Beast Shape II), Wild Shape (Elemental Body I)
3 +2 +2 +2 +1 Fast Wildshape (Beast Shape III)
4 +3 +3 +3 +1 Wildshape ( Elemental Body II, Form of the Fey I)
5 +3 +3 +3 +1 Wildshape (Vermin Form I)
6 +4 +4 +4 +2 Wildshape (Abberation Form I, Elemental Body III, Form of the Fey II,
7 +5 +4 +4 +2 Extraordinary Wildshape, Wildshape (Plant Form I, Vermin Form II)
8 +6 +5 +5 +2 Wildshape (Ooze Form I, Abberation Form II, Form of the Fey III, Form of the Dragon I )
9 +6 +5 +5 +3 Wildshape (Giant Form I, Plant Form II, Vermin Form III)
10 +7 +6 +6 +3 Evershifting Form, Wildshape (Ooze Form II, Abberation Form III, Form of the Dragon II)

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Masters of many forms gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Shifter’s Speech (Ex): A master of many forms maintains her ability to speak normally (including verbal components of spells) regardless of the form she takes. Furthermore, she can communicate with other creatures of the same kind while in wild shape, as long as such creatures are normally capable of communicating with each other using natural methods.
Improved Wild Shape (Su): A master of many forms may use her wildshape class abililty an additional time per day per each class level gained.
Fast Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a master of many forms can use her wild shape ability as a move action, rather than as a standard action.
Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.
Evershifting Form(Su): A 10th-level master of many forms has reached the pinnacle of her shapechanging abilities. She gains the shapechanger subtype and becomes immune to any transmutation effect unless she is willing to accept it. In addition, she no longer takes ability penalties for aging and is not subject to magical aging, though any aging penalties she already may have taken remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and a master of many forms still dies of old age when her time is up

New Spells

FORM OF THE FEY I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a mushroom or a fresh picked wildflower)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)

You assume the form of any small sized creature of the Fey subtype. You gain a +2 size bonus to Dexterity and a +4 dodge bonus to AC.

FORM OF THE FEY II
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a mushroom or a fresh picked wildflower)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)

You assume the form of any small or tiny sized creature of the Fey subtype. You gain a +4 size bonus to Dexterity and a +4 dodge bonus to AC.

FORM OF THE FEY III
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a mushroom or a fresh picked wildflower)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)

You assume the form of any small sized creature of the Fey subtype. You gain a +6 size bonus to Dexterity, a -2 size penalty to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Constitution and a +6 dodge bonus to AC.

VERMIN FORM I
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a dried insect husk, or bit of carapace)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)

You assume the form of any small or medium sized creature of the Vermin subtype. You gain a +2 size bonus to Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus to AC.

VERMIN FORM II
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a dried insect husk, or bit of carapace)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)

You assume the form of any large sized creature of the Vermin subtype. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +4 natural armor bonus to AC.

VERMIN FORM III
School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a dried insect husk, or bit of carapace)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min/level (D)

You assume the form of any huge creature of the Vermin subtype. You gain a +6 size bonus to Strength, -2 size penalty to Dexterity, +2 size bonus to Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus to AC.

Obviously the next thing to do is to study the abilities granted by the various polymorph spells to determine which types never become available, and those that do with what progression in the chain. If anyone has witnessed one such thread from a Paizonian where the philosophy behind the which abilities are granted and which are not, I'd be most appreciative.

[insaneogeddon]

A Man In Black wrote:

insaneogeddon wrote:

Feats (and stats) can make a shifting focused druid a viable option, unlike 3.5 they need to put effort into melee ability so its of some relevance as both their stats and feats are of real importance (as previous posters proved: base druid shifting is pwetty unimpressive in combat comparisons pre-feat selection).

Its the only way I can see to answer the OP question which infered a desire to be a "combat monster" as unfortunately I lack the wit to see how your posts approach to the question answers this.

Basically, no, they can't. You're trying to do the rogue spring attack thing, and while Vital Strike makes it less terrible than it used to be, lemme tell you that 6d6 plus str and miscellaneous doesn't cut it at the levels where you can actually do it, especially when you are a full spellcaster.

It's stylish and cool and the GM should probably accommodate it but it's mechanically weak.

Do I need to stat up a level 12-ish druid to illustrate?

A rogue has less chanct to hit, lower will saves, stealth, sneak attack dependancy, no healing, no exclusive movement, no additive effects on attacks (like being grappled by huge creatures) etc so is ill advised to spring attack.

I would like an example please as your previous posts said
insaneogeddon wrote:
'All this points to Spring Attack then Vital Strike.'

A Man In Black wrote:
"They don't work together, and that's 15 levels worth of feats."

Which would not seem to be the case unless the rules forum on this board, and other inferior :p non-paizo boards, are sorely mistaken.

[insaneogeddon]

Randall Jhen wrote:

A Man In Black wrote:

Do I need to stat up a level 12-ish druid to illustrate?

I built one to see how it would compare to the PCs in the one-shot I ran. Haven't taken a close look at it yet, though.

** spoiler omitted **...

Nice build but you are hardly even scratcing the surface.

1. All here have moved past the Plant Domain for direct additive damage as it seems indeed they are not applicable to natural attacks.
2. The OP requested SHIFTING FOCUSED DRUID so we are constrained by those parameters in out assistance.

Off the top of my head and some IMing i think

At 12th level a +9 bab, + a mere 16 str for +3, + spring attack and vital strike and some shifting...

Huge Animal: +6 str, +6 Nat AC, -4 Dex
T-rex: 4d6
Triceratops: 2d10 (4d10 if powerful charge)
Vital strike doubles this for one attack.
Improved Natural Attack ups it as well (if your DM allows)

Greater M.Fang, Barkskin etc all add as well.

Or Elementals:
Their something like +4 to +8 str, con or dex +, +4 to 6 AC
2d8 or 2d10

Earth is +1 hit and damage on earth and push and can get total cover invunrability under ground, Air gets fly and WHIRLWIND.

Immune to crits and sneak attack and all those nasty sickening/stunning/staggering high level melee downers.

Oh and DR 5 or something.

Plant Domain also might mean every time your attacked THEY take damage.
We are also assuming the druid hasn't gotten overly creative with non direct damaging combat choices.

I think a druid alone could go thru alot more foes than most others if utilising good tactics, spells etc.

Then again if your all about a cage fight to the death in the fewest rounds possible as a definition of warrior might they do fall short but even then again the DR and crit immunity + healing (touch spells can be held on ones -unused- hand and cast pre-combat) might make them even win then. Might !.

[A Man In Black]

Spring Attack/Vital Strike is a lot of feats to do bad damage. The fact that it's also bad for rogues doesn't suddenly make it good for druids; the only reason I mention rogues is because they have had access to this bad tactic for a long time to realize that it's a bad tactic. It's just not very much damage.

Also, Spring Attack and Improved Grab do not play nicely together. I leave figuring out why this is as an exercise for the class.

[grasshopper_ea]

A Man In Black wrote:

Spring Attack/Vital Strike is a lot of feats to do bad damage. The fact that it's also bad for rogues doesn't suddenly make it good for druids; the only reason I mention rogues is because they have had access to this bad tactic for a long time to realize that it's a bad tactic. It's just not very much damage.

Also, Spring Attack and Improved Grab do not play nicely together. I leave figuring out why this is as an exercise for the class.

I think vital strike/spring attack is not the best option. In my book it's definitely sub-par to lots of attacks and stacking on the elemental damage, but if that's the route I was going I would use stegosaurus. 4d6 tail attack + trip + vital strike would be a nice combo limiting your opponent since let's be honest, you're probably going to trip him as a huge creature.

Spring attack isn't great for the damage it deals. It's great for the tactical movement you can achieve with it. You can skirmish a blocker and run by without having to make a tumble check and get back to the enemy wizard. multiclassed fighter/druid with stepup, disruptive, and spellbreaker plus spring attack could wreak some havok in this regard. For this purpose fast movement would be more ideal than max damage.

[insaneogeddon]

Thats just the point the damage done by a full attacking druid is less than a fighter full attacking, so why compete on that level?

For a single attack few can match:

Steg or Trex.

Assuming no improved natural attack or enlarge spells..

Steg is as above (8d6+greater magic fang+strength+trip is not shabby in many groups).

Trex is 8d6+greater magic fang+DOUBLE strength+grab+swallow whole (if sucessful the opponet is considered grappled and you are not so you can move away). No reason you cannot grab one opponent and then run or the mage d.door you away with your party (and stomach contents) to wail on a lone opponent. Without light weapons in hand even mighty fighters will also struggle to escape and it removes a threat from combat.

I am pretty sure either will give other warriors a run for their money.

Time shall tell.

What I want to know is if the plant domains
Bramble Armor (Su): At 6th level, you can cause a host of wooden thorns to burst from your skin as a free action. While bramble armor is in effect, any foe striking you with an unarmed strike or a melee weapon without reach takes 1d6 points of piercing damage + 1 point per two cleric levels you possess. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

would apply to opponents swallowed !

[lostpike]

The best damage I found for a 12th level druid is going to be Elemental with shilleliegh on a club(2 club attacks plus slam) or Dire Tiger if you want multiple attacks plus rake, pounce.

The dire tiger will end up being better as you can throw in Rhino Armor and Amulet of Might Fists on top making pounce very nice.

Another Idea for a melee druid is taking levels of monk especially with a monks robe. Has anyone explored this idea?

ON T-REX- you dont get swallow whole as you dont get Beast Shape 4

[A Man In Black]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Trex is 8d6+greater magic fang+DOUBLE strength+grab+swallow whole (if sucessful the opponet is considered grappled and you are not so you can move away). No reason you cannot grab one opponent and then run or the mage d.door you away with your party (and stomach contents) to wail on a lone opponent. Without light weapons in hand even mighty fighters will also struggle to escape and it removes a threat from combat.

You don't get gargantuan forms.

[insaneogeddon]

Jibbed again. Grab and grapple forms should be good enough tho to pin little foes out of relevance as their crushed.

[A Man In Black]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Jibbed again. Grab and grapple forms should be good enough tho to pin little foes out of relevance as their crushed.

Improved Grab doesn't work with Spring Attack, though, and all of the Improved Grab forms you can use that you'd want to use are better off full attacking than Vital Striking. I don't see why you'd want to take those two feat chains if you're planning on grappling as your main strategy. The only reason you'd want to SA/VS (assuming the GM allows you to do this) is because you have a form with a single attack with massive base damage. Such a form doesn't exist in PF.

As for grappling, you're again placing an enemy in a place where they can beat the hell out of you with their normal melee routine. See my explanation on why you wouldn't want to whirlwind people for why you wouldn't want to grapple. You only want to do it against vulnerable or weak foes, going back to "rely on spellcasting, wild shape and melee only against low-hanging fruit".

[grasshopper_ea]

lostpike wrote:

The best damage I found for a 12th level druid is going to be Elemental with shilleliegh on a club(2 club attacks plus slam) or Dire Tiger if you want multiple attacks plus rake, pounce.

The dire tiger will end up being better as you can throw in Rhino Armor and Amulet of Might Fists on top making pounce very nice.

Another Idea for a melee druid is taking levels of monk especially with a monks robe. Has anyone explored this idea?

ON T-REX- you dont get swallow whole as you dont get Beast Shape 4

I'm gonna be houseruleing druids get beast shape 4 for animals only but get the abilities. No reason wizards should be better at being animals than druids in my book. I think it was oversight because it only gave magical beast forms.

[LazarX]

ZappoHisbane wrote:

Something that a lot of folks seem to be overlooking is that with the new Wildshape, much of your magical equipment will remain function, unlike in 3.5 Attribute boosters, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, cloaks of resistance, they all continue to function. No more need for a pile of Wilding Clasps.

As far as I can tell all your toys still cease to function while you're wildshaped. Haven't seen anything in the Wildshape description or the spells it's founded on to indicate otherwise.

[Randall Jhen]

LazarX wrote:

As far as I can tell all your toys still cease to function while you're wildshaped. Haven't seen anything in the Wildshape description or the spells it's founded on to indicate otherwise.

In the Magic chapter:

PRD wrote:

Polymorph: ... When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

[insaneogeddon]

We played a 15th level wandering encounter fest vital Stike is great with the bigger grabby/charge/trip creatures.

With or without spring attack.

I was supprised to see spring was unneeded in the face of reach and such.. the 3 feat chain to spring attack was a waste just lunge and improved naturel attack did well.

Didn't get to see a springing elemental in action tho.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

lostpike wrote:

The best damage I found for a 12th level druid is going to be Elemental with shilleliegh on a club(2 club attacks plus slam) or Dire Tiger if you want multiple attacks plus rake, pounce.

The dire tiger will end up being better as you can throw in Rhino Armor and Amulet of Might Fists on top making pounce very nice.

Another Idea for a melee druid is taking levels of monk especially with a monks robe. Has anyone explored this idea?

ON T-REX- you dont get swallow whole as you dont get Beast Shape 4

I'm gonna be houseruleing druids get beast shape 4 for animals only but get the abilities. No reason wizards should be better at being animals than druids in my book. I think it was oversight because it only gave magical beast forms.

Beast Shape 4 does not give you Swallow Whole.

[LazarX]

Randall Jhen wrote:

LazarX wrote:

As far as I can tell all your toys still cease to function while you're wildshaped. Haven't seen anything in the Wildshape description or the spells it's founded on to indicate otherwise.

In the Magic chapter:

PRD wrote:

Polymorph: ... When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

Hmm... well without armor, you're still a squishy combat druid. And of course you don't have the stats that you once could get by taking on shapes like dire tigers or grizzly bears. The days of Druids striding the field of combat like they once did are definitely over.

[grasshopper_ea]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

grasshopper_ea wrote:

lostpike wrote:

The best damage I found for a 12th level druid is going to be Elemental with shilleliegh on a club(2 club attacks plus slam) or Dire Tiger if you want multiple attacks plus rake, pounce.

The dire tiger will end up being better as you can throw in Rhino Armor and Amulet of Might Fists on top making pounce very nice.

Another Idea for a melee druid is taking levels of monk especially with a monks robe. Has anyone explored this idea?

ON T-REX- you dont get swallow whole as you dont get Beast Shape 4

I'm gonna be houseruleing druids get beast shape 4 for animals only but get the abilities. No reason wizards should be better at being animals than druids in my book. I think it was oversight because it only gave magical beast forms.

Beast Shape 4 does not give you Swallow Whole.

which doesn't have anything to do with my statement :) I didn't say druids could swallow whole, that was insanearmagaedon. I said I'm going to let them get beast shape 4 for animals only at the appropriate level to gain those abilities.

[eirip]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

In our campaign I first had my druid take a level of fighter for martial weapon lance and heavy armor proficiency, and then had him take all the mounted combat feats plus animal companion large lion. Try wildshaping into a medium plant (anything with opposable thumbs that can wield a lance, for +2 STR, CON and Nat Armor; my half-orc usually takes volodni form and looks as close as himself as possible - the dry, barky skin and fresh pine scent being the only give away! :P).

On a charge, not only do you have a 10 foot reach via lance and can do 3d8+24+2d6 (Rhino Hide), but when you crit (and it happens to me about once per game) the dmg goes up to 5d8+40+2d6.

I'm not saying I could fill the barbarian's role properly, but I can say that this guy was as good as the group's meleeists when he was able to do his thing and charge foes with his lance. Not a lot of people take the Mounted Combat route because it is too situational, but if you play a druid (i.e. support guy and other critical party roles have been filled), these Mounted feats combined with the Animal Companion features pack a heck of punch. Greater Magic Fang the Animal Companion and give it Improved and Greater Overrun, and coupled with your Spirited Charge/Trample/Ride-by feats, you have a situation when you first attack the enemy with your lance, continue to ride via Ride-by, then the Animal Companion gets to try to overrun and claw/hoof via your Trample feat, and via the Overrunning mechanics, continues to the end of its move (repeat everyround).

Mix the above move with Wall of Thorns, and wow! Druid can move through thorns, so if you can pass that skill down to your Animal Companion via spell or magic item or something, then you can surround your foes with a ring of thorns and charge them/run them over and dissapear at the end of the round through the thorns! (i.e. charging through one end of the circle and out the other, rinse, lather and repeat!)

Impressive!! I am playing my first Druid and I had never thought of doing something like this.

[insaneogeddon]

I always liked in 3.5 the Wildshape druid being a T.Rex on a 'animal growthed' Triceretops animal companion. Spirited Charging T.Rex bites is fun and lets face it T rexes bodies look perfect to be jockies. Its a little known fact that they were the jockies of the dinosaur world.

[A Man In Black]

insaneogeddon wrote:

I always liked in 3.5 the Wildshape druid being a T.Rex on a 'animal growthed' Triceretops animal companion. Spirited Charging T.Rex bites is fun and lets face it T rexes bodies look perfect to be jockies. Its a little known fact that they were the jockies of the dinosaur world.

I hate to pick on you like this insaneogeddon, but a natural attack is not a melee weapon. :(

Spirited Charge, in both 3.5 and PF wrote:

When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

[insaneogeddon]

A Man In Black wrote:

insaneogeddon wrote:

I always liked in 3.5 the Wildshape druid being a T.Rex on a 'animal growthed' Triceretops animal companion. Spirited Charging T.Rex bites is fun and lets face it T rexes bodies look perfect to be jockies. Its a little known fact that they were the jockies of the dinosaur world.

I hate to pick on you like this insaneogeddon, but a natural attack is not a melee weapon. :(

Spirited Charge, in both 3.5 and PF wrote:

When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).

I believe it was savage species or something that allowed metal teeth coverings to count as a melee weapon or some such. Where there is a will, there is a way.

[Lokie]

DM_Blake wrote:

Zurai wrote:

Daniel Moyer wrote:

Zurai wrote:

... crafting takes time. It's not something you can really do while you're adventuring, unless you're an artificer with a portable hole and a homunculus that can craft for you.

So your adventuring partys never rest or train? Unless you have a particular adventure that needs to be done within a specific time frame, an adventurer should have plenty of time to craft during rest/training.

Generally speaking, adventures need to be done within a certain amount of time, and you can't just take off two weeks in the middle of one because your druid finally got enough ready cash together to enchant his +2 amulet of mighty fists to +3 (25k difference in price = 12.5k difference in cost = 13 days to enchant).

And no, we don't use any homebrew training rules. We use the ones in the book, the ones that say your characters are training while they're adventuring and thus don't need to spend time or money training to gain a level.

Even worse, since it takes 25 days to upgrade the +2 amulet to a +3 amulet (25k difference in the base price = 12.5k difference in material costs = 25 days to enchant).

As for me, in the last 4 or 5 years time during which I have been a player and/or a DM all of that time, with multiple DMs in different campaigns, I have never had any adventure where we had 25 days just sitting around with nothing to do.

Yeah, sure, we could have made the time, sometimes. Not while the princess was tied to the altar and we had to rescue her immediately or she would be sacrificed (never happened; I'm just using a cliche here), but maybe after we got her safely home and before we started off to the distand jungles in search of new adventure. Maybe if we had had anyone who wanted to kill 25 days in town cooling our heels to make a magic item, we might have made the time. Sometimes.

The fact is, most of our adventures were somewhat time sensitive. Usually there was an overarching...

Allot of this is very true...

I'm curious though - How do you handle changes in the seasons? Being snowed in? Hurricane/Typhoon Season? Etc...?

In my games I try and include these.

Letting nature run its course adds a bit of realistic time flow to games. During those kinds of seasons most people just shut themselves up under cover and wait it out. It also builds in "extra time" for the PC's to build/craft items and otherwise restock consumables at a "discount" by doing it themselves.

[Lokie]

eirip wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

In our campaign I first had my druid take a level of fighter for martial weapon lance and heavy armor proficiency, and then had him take all the mounted combat feats plus animal companion large lion. Try wildshaping into a medium plant (anything with opposable thumbs that can wield a lance, for +2 STR, CON and Nat Armor; my half-orc usually takes volodni form and looks as close as himself as possible - the dry, barky skin and fresh pine scent being the only give away! :P).

On a charge, not only do you have a 10 foot reach via lance and can do 3d8+24+2d6 (Rhino Hide), but when you crit (and it happens to me about once per game) the dmg goes up to 5d8+40+2d6.

I'm not saying I could fill the barbarian's role properly, but I can say that this guy was as good as the group's meleeists when he was able to do his thing and charge foes with his lance. Not a lot of people take the Mounted Combat route because it is too situational, but if you play a druid (i.e. support guy and other critical party roles have been filled), these Mounted feats combined with the Animal Companion features pack a heck of punch. Greater Magic Fang the Animal Companion and give it Improved and Greater Overrun, and coupled with your Spirited Charge/Trample/Ride-by feats, you have a situation when you first attack the enemy with your lance, continue to ride via Ride-by, then the Animal Companion gets to try to overrun and claw/hoof via your Trample feat, and via the Overrunning mechanics, continues to the end of its move (repeat everyround).

Mix the above move with Wall of Thorns, and wow! Druid can move through thorns, so if you can pass that skill down to your Animal Companion via spell or magic item or something, then you can surround your foes with a ring of thorns and charge them/run them over and dissapear at the end of the round through the thorns! (i.e. charging through one end of the circle and out the other, rinse, lather and repeat!)

...

Now try this with a Fighter/Druid Halfling or other small creature on a riding dog. It becomes much less situational because you only take up a medium square and can do your mounted combat stuff in a dungeon. Trade-off is that you are not quite as large and powerful.