Can you use Weapon Finesse with a melee Touch Attack? Is a touch attack a light weapon? A natural weapon?
|
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
Italics has the important bit. As long as you're touching with your hands I don't see why Finesse would not be used.
Does it specify anywhere in the book that a touch attack does or does not count as a natural weapon?
Does it specify anywhere in the book that a touch attack does or does not count as a natural weapon?
Maybe you need to clarify a bit.
What is your touch attack? It might matter greatly to help us find your answer.
|
A melee touch attack is not spelled out as a natural weapon, an unarmed strikes, or a light weapon anywhere I can find. An unarmed strike is specifically called out as not a natural weapon. But since a melee touch attack is not called out as an unarmed strike, this does not help us. Common sense tells me that touch attacks can be finessed, because unarmed strikes can be finessed due to their light weapon status. But there are no rules stating concretely that melee touch attacks can or cannot be finessed.
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a
Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage
(plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s
unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage,
while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of
bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is
nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons
(for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Ergo, unarmed strikes count as light weapons. Weapon Finesse can be used with all light weapons, so it can be used with unarmed strikes.
All a touch attack is, is an unarmed strike that succeeds on a minimal touch without having to punch through armor - it's still an unarmed strike. And if the touch attack is powered by a spell, it's considered an armed strike instead of an unarmed strike. But none of that changes the fact that it can be finessed because it's a light weapon.
Edit: ooooh, ninja tarrasqe!
|
Yes, a Melee touch attack can use Weapon Finesse.
On pg 182, it says that melee touch attacks are considered armed natural attacks, and on pg 141, last sentance under light weapons, all natural attacks (and unarmed strikes) are light weapons, and good to go for finesse.
Also, in 3.5 anyway, melee and ranged touch attack spells are considered weapon-like spells, which means you can take certain feats for them, such as weapon focus: melee touch, or imp. crit: ray (ranged touch).
|
|
On pg 182, it says that melee touch attacks are considered armed natural attacks, and on pg 141, last sentance under light weapons, all natural attacks (and unarmed strikes) are light weapons, and good to go for finesse.
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or
creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks).
It does not actually say a touch attack spell counts as a natural weapon, just that both are armed. I also haven't found anything stating a touch attack counts as an unarmed strike.
|
|
Sorry, I'm on my phone and wasn't wanting to type all this out. Basically, touch attacks spells (melee touch attack) = "armed" unarmed strike. }hat just means thatit is an unarmed strike that does threaten and does not cause an AoO for using.
Unarmed Strikes = Natural Attacks. Natural Attacks are always Light Weapons, and you can use Weapon Finesse with Light Weapons.
On pg 182, it says that melee touch attacks are considered armed natural attacks, and on pg 141, last sentance under light weapons, all natural attacks (and unarmed strikes) are light weapons, and good to go for finesse.It does not actually say a touch attack spell counts as a natural weapon, just that both are armed. I also haven't found anything stating a touch attack counts as an unarmed strike.“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or
creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A
monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat,
a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature
with natural physical weapons all count as being armed
(see natural attacks).
The last bit in paragraph "(see natural attacks)"...
I am inclined to say that it is considered a natural attack but it is certainly not spelled out very clearly.
|
|
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points
of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small
character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk
or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat
can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes,
at his discretion. The damage from an unarmed strike is
considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that
give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply
your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier
to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes
do not count as natural weapons (see Chapter 8).
This being the problem, that unarmed strikes are specifically called out as NOT natural weapons.
Edit: Hmm, just caught that. Is there a difference between natural attacks and natural weapons? I will have to read up on it.
|
|
No, they are listed under armed attacks, along with natural attacks. Unless I fail at reading. *rereads*
Edit: Rereading, it says that a creatures unarmed attack counts as an armed attack when making a touch attack. This is a very convoluted and unclear wording of it. I knew I should have just stuck with the common sense answer instead of working through the legal matter of it. Still, it was entertaining while I'm sitting here with nothing better to do.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
It does not actually say a touch attack spell counts as a natural weapon, just that both are armed. I also haven't found anything stating a touch attack counts as an unarmed strike.
Touch attacks are not Natural Weapons, neither are Unarmed Strikes.
Armed Unarmed Attacks (i.e. Touch attacks) are light weapons, because Unarmed is a light weapon.
So, Weapon Finesse would apply to a melee touch attack.
Armed Unarmed Attacks (i.e. Touch attacks) are light weapons, because Unarmed is a light weapon.
|
|
It does not actually say a touch attack spell counts as a natural weapon, just that both are armed. I also haven't found anything stating a touch attack counts as an unarmed strike.Touch attacks are not Natural Weapons, neither are Unarmed Strikes.
Armed Unarmed Attacks (i.e. Touch attacks) are light weapons, because Unarmed is a light weapon.
Yeah, I figured that out in my last post. The lovely legalese of the 3.5 ruleset. :)
Can you spend an attack action to deliver an improved unarmed attack and a held charge at the same time?
And if so, I assume it would be
A) One roll as a melee attack to deliver both
and not
B) One roll as a melee attack for the improved unarmed attack and one roll as a melee touch attack for the held touch spell
or
C) One roll as a melee touch attack for both the held touch spell and the improved unarmed attack
Can you spend an attack action to deliver an improved unarmed attack and a held charge at the same time?
And if so, I assume it would be
A) One roll as a melee attack to deliver both
Option A.
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Holsey crap, where did ninja tarrasque come from? I really didn't even see that till now. . .
Yep, ninja tarrasques are like that. Hard to see...
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I'm pretty sure that is a typo. It was not that way in 3E
There was no change between 3.5 and 3.p in regard to Armed attacks being light weapons and targets for Weapon Finesse.
Can you spend an attack action to deliver an improved unarmed attack and a held charge at the same time?
A) One roll as a melee attack to deliver both
Yes, A.
As long as you're touching with your hands I don't see why Finesse would not be used.
No "that wasn't my thumb" jokes now!!!
|
It does not actually say a touch attack spell counts as a natural weapon, just that both are armed. I also haven't found anything stating a touch attack counts as an unarmed strike.Touch attacks are not Natural Weapons, neither are Unarmed Strikes.
Armed Unarmed Attacks (i.e. Touch attacks) are light weapons, because Unarmed is a light weapon.
Splitting hairs on the nano-scale :
Where does it state that an Unarmed Attack (which a Touch Attack is) is an Unarmed Strike (which is considered a light weapon) ?
I must be dense, as I cannot find the precise text saying so. If you could write down the precise quote, I would be very grateful.
It's the rules, rather than you, that are dense. :'P
Honestly, it's obvious that Weapon Finesse should count even though there seems to be no clear textual proof. Just roll with it and move on. :]
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
I must be dense, as I cannot find the precise text saying so. If you could write down the precise quote, I would be very grateful.
p182:
Unarmed Attacks ... "Armed" Unarmed Attacks ... count as armed attacks ... spellcaster delivering a touch spellp141:
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
p185:
touch spell is considered to be an armed attack
Honestly, it's obvious that Weapon Finesse should count even though there seems to be no clear textual proof. Just roll with it and move on. :]
Could be me, as to me, it is absolutely not in doubt that Touch spells are light weapons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I must be dense, as I cannot find the precise text saying so. If you could write down the precise quote, I would be very grateful.p182:
Unarmed Attacks ... "Armed" Unarmed Attacks ... count as armed attacks ... spellcaster delivering a touch spellp141:
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.p185:
touch spell is considered to be an armed attackHonestly, it's obvious that Weapon Finesse should count even though there seems to be no clear textual proof. Just roll with it and move on. :]Could be me, as to me, it is absolutely not in doubt that Touch spells are light weapons.
The will-o'-wisp description in the bestiary is proof of the developers intent of the rule. the creatures stats dont work out correctly without the weapon finesse mod applying to its melee touch attack.