My character has racial natural armor (not a bonus from a magic item).
1. Is that lost when using wild shape? I'd think so, but the mechanics as described for the spell and the polymorph section suggest that it's kept.
2. If I have the feat improved natural armor, does it apply to my new form? I'm confused on that one, I'd like to think it does; it would be fair anyway.
My character has racial natural armor (not a bonus from a magic item).
1. Is that lost when using wild shape? I'd think so, but the mechanics as described for the spell and the polymorph section suggest that it's kept.
2. If I have the feat improved natural armor, does it apply to my new form? I'm confused on that one, I'd like to think it does; it would be fair anyway.
1. It states under polymorph in the spell section that all racial bonuses are lost while polymorphed.
2. Yes.
1. It states under polymorph in the spell section that all racial bonuses are lost while polymorphed.
2. Yes.
I'm sorry, I can't find the text you're talking about for #1. I also did a word search for "racial" in the pdf. The section for polymorph on p. 212-213 (Chapter 9, magic) only mentions the loss of armor bonuses in the context of items, which aren't the same as natural armor anyway.
"Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of
a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of
bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural
armor. " -- says bonus only.
I can't find anything about losing racial natural armor, would you be so kind as to quote it or explain your statement?
Thanks.
1. It states under polymorph in the spell section that all racial bonuses are lost while polymorphed.
2. Yes.
I'm sorry, I can't find the text you're talking about for #1. I also did a word search for "racial" in the pdf. The section for polymorph on p. 212-213 (Chapter 9, magic) only mentions the loss of armor bonuses in the context of items, which aren't the same as natural armor anyway.
"Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of
a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of
bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural
armor. " -- says bonus only.I can't find anything about losing racial natural armor, would you be so kind as to quote it or explain your statement?
Thanks.
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."
I'm starting to feel really dense. I don't get it.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I'm starting to feel really dense. I don't get it.
Abilities are either Ex, Su, Sp, or Natural.
Your DM determines whether or not the natural armour is an Ex ability or a Natural ability. Once determined, you lose it if it is Ex. The polymorph rules seems to leave open what to do if your DM interprets Natural armour as a Natural ability (which is typically described as things like walking, flying, burrowing; i.e. movements.)
Most things not detailed are Ex, since things like Human Bonus Feat is an Ex ability.
I'd wager the intent is that the Natural Armour was intended to be an Ex ability.
I'm starting to feel really dense. I don't get it.Abilities are either Ex, Su, Sp, or Natural.
Your DM determines whether or not the natural armour is an Ex ability or a Natural ability. Once determined, you lose it if it is Ex. The polymorph rules seems to leave open what to do if your DM interprets Natural armour as a Natural ability (which is typically described as things like walking, flying, burrowing; i.e. movements.)
Most things not detailed are Ex, since things like Human Bonus Feat is an Ex ability.
I'd wager the intent is that the Natural Armour was intended to be an Ex ability.
Thanks. I searched the rulebook and the bonus/preview bestiaries and it's not clarified anywhere if it's an ex ability or not. Some passages would even suggest it's a Natural ability. In 3.5 this was a lot clearer:
"-The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
-The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form."
I'll go with your suggestion that NA is an ex ability then, because it makes sense, rather than because the PF rules are clear about it.
I'm starting to feel really dense. I don't get it.Abilities are either Ex, Su, Sp, or Natural.
Your DM determines whether or not the natural armour is an Ex ability or a Natural ability. Once determined, you lose it if it is Ex. The polymorph rules seems to leave open what to do if your DM interprets Natural armour as a Natural ability (which is typically described as things like walking, flying, burrowing; i.e. movements.)
Most things not detailed are Ex, since things like Human Bonus Feat is an Ex ability.
I'd wager the intent is that the Natural Armour was intended to be an Ex ability.
Thanks. I searched the rulebook and the bonus/preview bestiaries and it's not clarified anywhere if it's an ex ability or not. Some passages would even suggest it's a Natural ability. In 3.5 this was a lot clearer:
"-The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
-The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form."I'll go with your suggestion that NA is an ex ability then, because it makes sense, rather than because the PF rules are clear about it.
Hopefully the Bestiary will clear this up....
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It is?
I should ask how the human bonus feat interacts with wildshape. Especially if it's used for the start of a feat tree. Same with the skilled feature, if it is an Ex. Do you lose actual skill points?
Officially (from WotC) it is an Ex ability and was lost during 3.5 Wild Shape. If you depend on it for a feat chain, you officially lost it (and the rest of the chain) when Wild Shaping.
In 3.p, just like in 3.5, you have no explicit declaration (which I hate because "(Ex)" is only 4 chars.) So the DM needs to put it somewhere and the only two choices are Ex and Na.
It is?
I should ask how the human bonus feat interacts with wildshape. Especially if it's used for the start of a feat tree. Same with the skilled feature, if it is an Ex. Do you lose actual skill points?
Officially (from WotC) it is an Ex ability and was lost during 3.5 Wild Shape. If you depend on it for a feat chain, you officially lost it (and the rest of the chain) when Wild Shaping.
In 3.p, just like in 3.5, you have no explicit declaration (which I hate because "(Ex)" is only 4 chars.) So the DM needs to put it somewhere and the only two choices are Ex and Na.
I very much dislike that the feat is lost. In 3.5e, polymorph effects only changed you physically, and what you are physically capable of doing (Ex class features).
Skills, feats, mental stats.. those all stayed the same.As far as I know, Pathfinder only changed how it applied bonuses, not what it's supposed to take away. It'd be silly to suddenly "forget" things learned because your form changed. Not be able to physically do certain things in the new form (specifically, extraordinary ones), sure. But to suddenly forget how to Empower a spell?
So a Human Druid who picked +2 Wisdom as his ability increase gets to keep that when changing, but loses his "Eschew Materials" feat he picked as his bonus Human feat, that was to help him during wildshaping in the first place?
That feels... ridiculous is the only word I can think of here.
My character has racial natural armor (not a bonus from a magic item).
1. Is that lost when using wild shape? I'd think so, but the mechanics as described for the spell and the polymorph section suggest that it's kept.
2. If I have the feat improved natural armor, does it apply to my new form? I'm confused on that one, I'd like to think it does; it would be fair anyway.
1. See the descriptions of the invidual spells (like Beast Shape I-IV, or Giant Form I-II); each of them specifically says that the forms you take allow you to 'gain a +x natural armor bonus', not to 'increase your natural armor bonus by +x', nor they give you an 'enhancement of +x to your natural armor bonus'. This (IMHO) means that you effectively substitute the natural armor bonus of your base form (+0 for the standard races) with those described by the spell (linked to the size of the form you are taking).
2. Yes, you possess the feat, no matter what form you have. Even a creature without natural armor has an effective 'natural armor bonus =0', so it can be increased by +1 (or more) by the feat(s).
Just my 2c.
My character has racial natural armor (not a bonus from a magic item).
1. Is that lost when using wild shape? I'd think so, but the mechanics as described for the spell and the polymorph section suggest that it's kept.
2. If I have the feat improved natural armor, does it apply to my new form? I'm confused on that one, I'd like to think it does; it would be fair anyway.
1. See the descriptions of the invidual spells (like Beast Shape I-IV, or Giant Form I-II); each of them specifically says that the forms you take allow you to 'gain a +x natural armor bonus', not to 'increase your natural armor bonus by +x', nor they give you an 'enhancement of +x to your natural armor bonus'. This (IMHO) means that you effectively substitute the natural armor bonus of your base form (+0 for the standard races) with those described by the spell (linked to the size of the form you are taking).
2. Yes, you possess the feat, no matter what form you have. Even a creature without natural armor has an effective 'natural armor bonus =0', so it can be increased by +1 (or more) by the feat(s).
Just my 2c.
See,
This may just be the fact that I have a math degree, but, in mathematics, if you say 'Gain +X', that means 'Add +X', not 'Replace with +X'. I believe there is even rules to support this. If you look at the description of an amulet of natural armor, it says 'All characters who do not have Natural Armor are considered to have a Natural Armor attribute of +0'.Using that as a framework, it makes very good logic to say 'Gain +X' means that a human goes from +0 to +X. Very logical and consistent with the wording. If, instead, the character has +N already, then 'Gain +X' to me would mean the character would go from +N to +(N+X).
Under 3.5, that was not the case. But, by the wording of the 3.P, that would be the logical result.
However, I think the GM should be interpreting that. For example, if the +1 character Natural Armor is because the core player is part Ignan and has stone deposits in their body (say, from a template), then I think the altered form should have stone deposits in it's skin, in addition to say the thick body hair that also adds +1. If the character's Natural Armor is because they have thick hide, and change to a rhino for example who also gets it from thick hide, then I think you'd take the biggest bonus, +N or +X.
Basically, I think I'd treat is like the normal Stacking rules, based on special effect of the +X and +N (Different effects stack, same effects do not).
That is, of course, a houserule on my part. Per the RAW, the RAI version of the animal form replacing the characters Natural Armor and the RAI of it adding both seem valid, so it would be up to the GM or an errata.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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'gain a +x natural armor bonus', not to 'increase your natural armor bonus by +x', nor they give you an 'enhancement of +x to your natural armor bonus'
Yea, if you had NA of +4 and a Amulet of Natural Armour +2 (effective +6) and took a form with NA +3 and your Amulet melded (becoming non functional) you would lose 3 points of NA.
If you are Human (+0) with an Amulet (+2), took a +3 NA form, you would gain +3 NA.
If you are Human (+0) with an Amulet (+2), took a +3 NA form while keeping your Amulet, you would gain +5 NA.
'gain a +x natural armor bonus', not to 'increase your natural armor bonus by +x', nor they give you an 'enhancement of +x to your natural armor bonus'Yea, if you had NA of +4 and a Amulet of Natural Armour +2 (effective +6) and took a form with NA +3 and your Amulet melded (becoming non functional) you would lose 3 points of NA.
If you are Human (+0) with an Amulet (+2), took a +3 NA form, you would gain +3 NA.
If you are Human (+0) with an Amulet (+2), took a +3 NA form while keeping your Amulet, you would gain +5 NA.
Thanks for all the replies.
Wasn't the point made that in the PF version of wild shape, you kept the effects of constant enhancements? So the amulet should still be functional, just like a ring of deflection. I believe that if you had base NA of 4 and a Amulet of Natural Armour +2 (effective +6) and took a form with a base NA 3, you'd then have ("gain" seems very much the wrong word) an effective NA of 5.
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My character has racial natural armor (not a bonus from a magic item).
1. Is that lost when using wild shape? I'd think so, but the mechanics as described for the spell and the polymorph section suggest that it's kept.
2. If I have the feat improved natural armor, does it apply to my new form? I'm confused on that one, I'd like to think it does; it would be fair anyway.
1. No. Racial traits, racial ability score modifiers, and racial bonuses to natural armor are definitely retained. You only lose the natural attacks and movement type of the original form, which are now both replaced by the new form, and you *may* lose abilities specifically listed as Extraordinary (Ex) or Supernatural (Su) *if* and *only if* these depend on the original form.
For example the beard devil from Preview II would lose the following ability, which is DEPENDANT ON HIS FORM: (bold emphasis mine)
Beard (Ex) If a bearded devil hits a single opponent with both
claw attacks, it also lashes at the same target with its spiky,
filthy beard. etc. (snip)
However, the beard devil would NOT lose the following abilities, as they are NOT dependant on his form, (except for Darvision and See in Darkness if his new form would not have any eyes) and thus could still be used while employing, say, Giant Form:
Darkvision (Ex)
See in Darkness (Su)
Resistance (Ex)
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)
Infernal Wound (Su) The damage a bearded devil deals with
its glaive inflicts persistent wounds that cause 2 points of
bleed damage. Bleed caused from an infernal wound is
particularly difficult to stanch—a DC 17 Heal check stops
the damage, and any attempt to heal a creature suffering
from an infernal wound must succeed on a DC 16 caster
It's actually quite simple now: if an Ex or Su ability is dependant of your original form (such as the "beard" ability of a bearded devil), you lose it if you polymorph. EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS!!! :) Remember your type is not changing, just your appearance!!! think that you remain your old self but you're putting on a giant foam rubber suit (or stepping into a mech warrior suit) and you'll be just fine! :)
2. Yes.
...
However, the beard devil would NOT lose the following abilities, as they are NOT dependant on his form, (except for Darvision and See in Darkness if his new form would not have any eyes) and thus could still be used while employing, say, Giant Form:Darkvision (Ex)
See in Darkness (Su)
Resistance (Ex)
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)
...
Thanks, but I'd trust your answer more if you didn't just directly contradict the rules about darkvision. Either that or the rules are remarkably ambiguous. The way it's written, I read them to mean that darkvision and scent depend on your form so you automatically lose them when wild shaping. Although I guess they could be read as you say. Gahh. The Pathfinder rulebook is driving me nuts.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I believe that if you had base NA of 4 and a Amulet of Natural Armour +2 (effective +6) and took a form with a base NA 3, you'd then have ("gain" seems very much the wrong word) an effective NA of 5.
Gain was probably the wrong word. How about "have a current effective" instead of Gain?
Yes if you had +4 NA race with +2 NA amulet, took the form of a +3 NA race you would have effective +5 NA (+3 +2 = +5)
racial bonuses to natural armor are definitely retained.
However, the beard devil would NOT lose the following abilities
Darkvision (Ex)
See in Darkness (Su)
Resistance (Ex)
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su)
I read the spells (Beast Shape etc) to replace your current racial Natural Armour Bonus. So therefore it is a RAW interpretation question you need to ask your DM.
You explicitly lose Darkvision (because it depends on your form) since it is called out by name on p212. This would also catch See in Darkness (since that also is an effect that depends on your old form's eyes.)
Your DM has a high likelihood of also putting Resistances in the "depends on your form" because a Fire Giant has Fire Resistance based on his form and if he takes the form of a Ice Elemental or something he shouldn't retain his original resistances. But this again is an "Ask your DM" question because it depends on RAW interpretations.
Same for DR, does it or does it not depend on your form. The only way you know is "Ask your DM" for his RAW interpretation.