Those could very well be the correct interpretations. I guess I never fully became aware of that one sentence at the end of the second paragraph. The placement of the sentence is odd to me though, they have all the stuff about the attack, then all the stuff about the defense, and then tack on the "oh by the way" at the end of the defense stuff.
I don't think it's "oh by the way" at all. The ability is called smite evil so the fact that it only affects evil creatures shouldn't be a huge surprise. ;) If it was called "smite dogs" would it be "oh by the way" if the last sentence said it only affected dogs?
Those could very well be the correct interpretations. I guess I never fully became aware of that one sentence at the end of the second paragraph. The placement of the sentence is odd to me though, they have all the stuff about the attack, then all the stuff about the defense, and then tack on the "oh by the way" at the end of the defense stuff.I don't think it's "oh by the way" at all. The ability is called smite evil so the fact that it only affects evil creatures shouldn't be a huge surprise. ;) If it was called "smite dogs" would it be "oh by the way" if the last sentence said it only affected dogs?
In the case that I split the whole description up and then tack it in the middle? Yes.
Now if it started or ended with that statement no, however in this case it is oddly placed.
In the case that I split the whole description up and then tack it in the middle? Yes.
Now if it started or ended with that statement no, however in this case it is oddly placed.
Wasn't commenting on the placement of the statement but the name of the power.
Wasn't commenting on the placement of the statement but the name of the power.In the case that I split the whole description up and then tack it in the middle? Yes.
Now if it started or ended with that statement no, however in this case it is oddly placed.
Fair enough but my comment was on the placement of the statement.
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While many classes have abilities that are dependent on a stat, either 1. all their abilities are tied to that stat (i.e. paladin, bard) or 2. the ability is still useful in both ways and number of times with the stat at a 10 minimum (such as the clerics channel energy... a minimum 3 per day with a CHA 10, and still heals fine if you go positive energy). The fighter's armor training is possibly the only class feature that doesn't fall into one of these two categories.
A paladin needs strength about as much as a fighter. Both need constitution, too. The paladin needs charisma while the fighter needs dexterity. Unless the paladin uses a bow, than he needs charisma, too.
And even with a dexterity of 10, the fighter still benefits from the increased movement in medium and heavy armor.
Yes the movement part is nice, the rest however can be a very wasted trait.
All characters need Con, almost all need Dex, and most can use a good strength too.
The paladin needs charisma yes, but charisma in this case helps them with all their abilities. It increases their healing power, their spell power, their saves, their attacks and their AC (while smiting on the last two).
There is a difference, this is one class feature that builds specifically off of the fighter's Dex. It only does him good in armor that he has more Dex Mod than the armor allows. In order to use this portion of the ability at all he must raise his Dex.
Unlike the paladin for instance, the fighter doesn't have an ability that lets him use his Dex for all his save throws. He doesn't have an ability that allows him to add his Dex to damage, or to cast spells.
I'm not saying it's a bad ability, I'm saying it is rough.
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Yes the movement part is nice, the rest however can be a very wasted trait.
All characters need Con, almost all need Dex, and most can use a good strength too.
The paladin needs charisma yes, but charisma in this case helps them with all their abilities. It increases their healing power, their spell power, their saves, their attacks and their AC (while smiting on the last two).
There is a difference, this is one class feature that builds specifically off of the fighter's Dex. It only does him good in armor that he has more Dex Mod than the armor allows. In order to use this portion of the ability at all he must raise his Dex.
Unlike the paladin for instance, the fighter doesn't have an ability that lets him use his Dex for all his save throws. He doesn't have an ability that allows him to add his Dex to damage, or to cast spells.
I'm not saying it's a bad ability, I'm saying it is rough.
You forgot the third part of that ability Abraham, ignoring armor check penalties. That alone makes it worthwhile. Even if you don't have a stellar dex what this ability allows for is the fighter to wear heavier armor and keep pace with the rogue or bard. He doesn't need as high a dex because his armor isn't going to get in the way.
Wearing the heaviest armor also allows you to go less dex because you'll be able to have a higher AC without the problems of needing to be a dex monkey. The ability just has the added bonus of allowing you to BE a dex monkey.
Its fine as written, its not that bad...it could be much worse
All characters need Con, almost all need Dex, and most can use a good strength too.
This attitude was exactly the reason I built a 6-Con, 8-Str gray elf wizard for Living Greyhawk. Two hit points and no combat magic, baby. Carried a longsword, sometimes actually used it, often took a role of leadership (by example!) and survived to second level. Just to show them whippersnappers how it's done. ;)
Honestly, fighters and paladins (with their d10s and plate armor) "need" Constitution less than anyone. Sure they can use it, but they're not fragile in the first place. A finesse/2WF fighter can do fine with 10 Strength. And speaking of plate armor, Dexterity is only a bonus for the average fighter and could very well be dumped by a paladin (in fact one of my players has done just that).
There is a difference, this is one class feature that builds specifically off of the fighter's Dex. It only does him good in armor that he has more Dex Mod than the armor allows.
IMO movement speed is the #1 benefit of armor training. Granted this isn't relevant for ranks 3 and 4. However, the check penalty reduction is pretty solid all by itself unless everything your party does happens on a broad empty plain. Again: Dexterity is a bonus for the fighter, but the feature is far from useless without it!
The normal TWF problems of DR don't apply, because fighters get to ignore 10 points of DR. You get more chances to apply the amazing critical feats. You get all the AC bonuses of using a shield, the dex you apply to TWF also helps armor training, and all of your nice static bonuses to damage apply to both hands.
-Cross
Where is this? I don't recall seeing any place where it states the fighter can ignore DR
He's talking about the Fighter-only Penetrating Strike/Grt. Penetrating Strike Feats.
There are two fighter only feats in the weapon focus tree that allow the fighter in question to ignore 5 points of DR (regardless of source) each.Where is this? I don't recall seeing any place where it states the fighter can ignore DRThe normal TWF problems of DR don't apply, because fighters get to ignore 10 points of DR. You get more chances to apply the amazing critical feats. You get all the AC bonuses of using a shield, the dex you apply to TWF also helps armor training, and all of your nice static bonuses to damage apply to both hands.
-Cross
Ah! thanks. I missed them because of how high up in the tree they are. Most of our games tend to top out at 12-14th level
There are two fighter only feats in the weapon focus tree that allow the fighter in question to ignore 5 points of DR (regardless of source) each.
Sadly, by the time you can get these they're not all that useful. 90% of the foes you'll face at that level that even have DR, will have DR of a type that the flat magical bonus on your weapon allows you to overcome anyways.
Please note I didn't say fighters aren't powerful, I'm a firm believer in the fighter class, I'm just not 100% on the armor training, however at least two of its abilities are very sound, and that's a great place to start on at minimum.
Call me at about 85% on it.
The damage reduction ignoring feats allow you to ignore 10/dr on things that have something they can be beat by. So if you do end up in an anti magic field fighting a balor, you still have a chance to get some damage through (heck who am I kidding, he'll still stomp you... but you might tickle him first at least).
Against no evil opponents a paladin can do fine.
He still has a good spell list (if slightly slow and limited) that serves him fine.
Without magical weaponry he can still have magical weaponry, especially at high levels: The paladin has Divine Favor, Greater Magical Weapon, Bless Weapon, and his Divine Bond can be used to empower his weapon giving it magical properties (of his choice), meaning that if given a standard long sword the high level paladin can end up with a highly powerful magical sword.
He still has his healing powers and immunities that help him greatly against enemy magic and damage no matter the source.
Finally he has good skill choices, and excellent saves to stack on top of his good BAB and d10 hit dice. The skills can help find non-violent solutions to problems with other good characters (which is better than fighting good people any day).
He might not melee it as well as a fully tricked out fighter, but he certainly isn't helpless or just going to roll over for the enemy.
Finally while the fighter does get 21 feats, the paladin gets 10, which is enough for 2 fighting styles, or one style and several other useful feats.
(Not saying the paladin is better, just that he is still good)
I never said the Paladin wasn't good. I was just saying that while the Paladin shines in some circumstances, he isn't going to be as useful as a melee combatant as a Fighter if the circumstances don't favour him. He's still a useful healer, especially given his mercies, and some of his spells will still be useful, but the one thing that gives him an edge in melee combat is highly situational, whereas Fighters are good combatants so long as they can get their hands on a weapon or else have Improved Unarmed Combat and the correct Weapon Training.
Which of course is situational.
Greater Magical Weapon is not a situational spell, neither is the divine bond ability.
The spells are useful in general not just specific circumstances, and the paladin still has full bab, and 10 feats to burn.
In specific circumstances the paladin is great. In general circumstances the paladin is still at least good. Especially since he can swift action heal himself each round while removing status anomalies, this has the exact same effect has actually having more HP.
Now I'm not saying the fighter is bad, he's great in most circumstances, however the paladin is too.
My response was an answer to your series of questions in your last post:
Thing with a Fighter is, the class is fairly versatile: they can kick butt in most circumstances. A paladin is fantastic at fighting evil enemies, especially outsiders and dragons, (1) but what about neutral (or even good, depending on the campaign) opponents? (2) What about high level NPCs as opposed to evil outsiders (I generally prefer fighting against well rounded npcs to fighting monsters and the like)? (3) What if, for whatever reason, the character in question is unable to get to any magical weaponry?
In each of those situations the paladin still has plenty to offer. In the last case he has more to offer than the fighter does as he can actually create his own magical weapon, set with abilities he chooses at the time he needs them, on his own when he needs to.
Against well rounded opponents the paladin is going to be fine due to his great HP, ability to swiftly heal, great saves, and general immunities, as well as the fact that he can lay the smack down just about as well as the fighter with one combat style (indeed with the spell divine favor to help probably just as well). Arguably the paladin's immunities are even more important in the case of well round NPC's that use normally effective tactics (poison, stunning, compulsions, charms, death abilities, et al), especially when the paladin's mercies are added in to the swift action healing (on himself).
Divine Bond requires you to use a weapon... it doesn't have to be the same one. This is not "arcane bond"... any paladin (with the weapon bond) could pick up any weapon and use his weapon bond to enhance it. The weapon doesn't have to be special in anyway... heck the paladin in question could pick up an improvised weapon (iron skillet for example) and divine (weapon) bond it to be +1 holy, merciful if he wanted.
(just for clarification on what the ability does)
Well, with Divine Bond you either have to have to have the weapon you're bonded to with you, or else have enough room to ride a mount, but yeah, I see what you mean. Either way, both are actually fairly well balanced now (unless of course you only ever pit your player characters against evil outsiders), and can pull their own weight.
Honestly my paladin's doing fine in combat at level 5 keeping up with the fighter, though I'm pretty sure the horse is doing more damage. I think I've used smite so far a total of 5 times in the campaign, and I've cast one spell in a totally evil fight. Paladins definately hold their own even without smite and spellcasting, that's the icing on the cake.
In response to Armor Training, I assume that many fighters aren't going to reap the whole +4 ac from it, but it's still a great boost. Even if you start with a 10 dex, and only get a belt of dex (never spend stat boosts or pay for inherent bonuses), that's still +2 armor class over what you'd have without Armor Training.
And, really, a 14 starting dex isn't that crazy, nor is it unheard of for a purely strength-based fighter to still read a manual of dex.
However, Bonded Weapon alone is much better (at least, four times per day for 20 minutes per use) than the fighter's Weapons Training. Without counting smite. And the paladin's smite is freaking crazy.
I'm pretty sure a paladin is a match for a fighter (around, say, level 12) with Lay on Hands and Bonded Weapon alone, without using any other class features. The fighter has +2 AC, +2 attack and damage, and six feat, but the paladin has another +3 on his weapon and is recovering 6d6 hitpoints per round.
Those feats will mean, what, +10 damage at -1 to hit? (Power Attack for -3/+6, Weapon Focus x2, Weapon Specialization x2)
No, that's not right, the Paladin can take Weapon Focus and Power Attack too. More like +1 to-hit and +4 damage over the paladin, plus three more feats. Those extra feats are probably going to be critical feats at this level, actually. Improved crit, crit focus, sickening critical.
So, relative to the pally the fighter has +3 to damage, +2 AC, twice the crit range/+4 to confirm, and inflicts another -2 attack/damage on the pally if he scores a crit. While the paladin is recovering 21 hitpoints per round for the first 8 or 9 rounds (and, in fact, has a pretty good chance of having the sickened mercy anyway).
To figure out how much the confirm bonus and the AC bonus are worth I would have to actually stat them, which I won't bother doing, but the fact that they're even comparable when the pally is only using half his class features... yea.
Normally, I would say "PC-vs-PC doesn't prove anything".
However, the reason this doesn't prove anything is that some characters have powers which are very powerful for adventuring in general but aren't as good in a duel. And in this case, that edge still goes to the paladin.
He's the one with the awesome saves and immunities, he's the one with the utility powers and spells, and he's the one who is much better against specific monsters than against other PCs. If the fighter can't even beat him in a straight fight, he has nothing.
Now, I need to moderate myself somewhat here- there are lots of feats (i.e. fighter things) that make you better at combat without necessarily making you better at single combat. The fighter might be cleaving or whirlwinding, tripping mooks, or stepping up and disrupting mages- all ways that he can contribute and the paladin probably can't. But that doesn't even come close to the toughness and general-utility of the paladin (and, again, we still aren't talking about smite).
Fighter's DPR vs. a non-shield wearer is around 280. vs. a shield-wearer, about 230). The best Paladin DPR I could get was low double-digits (20-30).
This numbers are completely out of accord with my reality. Please post the full build for both the pally and the fighter. Or at least for the fighter, and then we can build our own paladin with the same stats and equipment value.
In a perfect world, a paladin WOULD get whipped by a non-evil fighter, but I just don't see how that is happening here.
Your numbers are quite a bit off, even by your own statistics.
The fighters chances of hitting with his scimitar attacks are:
.95, .95, .7, .55 All multiplied by 30.5 = 105.575
Shield is .95, .75, .5 all multipled by 25.5 = 56.5
DPR: 162.075
Your base assumptions are off to begin with, however, both in little ways (Weapon Training is +4, not +5; Shield Specialization isn't fighter-only) and in big ways (both these guys only have half the wealth they should, which strongly favors the fighter as he has built-in damage bonuses; both of their weapons should both be +10).
Additionally, Weapon Bond gives a virtual +6 enhancement bonus and is worth spending a standard action for. Calling the Brilliant Energy property will strip over 20 points of AC off the fighter (though it's silly to assume he didn't just use it 10 minutes before hand as it lasts 1 minute/level. If we're talking REAL buffs, i.e. paladin spells or items, that's a different ballgame). You've ignored ALL the paladin's class feature, not just smite, and are basically comparing a 20th level fighter to a 20th level warrior when both have half normal gear.
Not that I don't appreciate the work you've but into it, mind. And I'd also forgotten about Improved Shield Bash, namely because it is an awfully broken feat and I would never play with it, but it DOES let you dual-wield with +7 AC, and it DOES greatly favor the fighter (both because he has the feats to spend on it and because the paladin can only bond one weapon at a time).
I really need to get offline and get some stuff done, but I'll be sure to come back here later, so don't feel obliged to run new numbers yourself. :) I'd probably run 4 sets of numbers if I were doing this; Fighter is neutral/no prep, fighter is evil/no prep, fighter is neutral/paladin can buff, fighter is evil/paladin can buff.
There are a number of other issues with such a comparison, though. For instance, two-handed weapon use is better for a paladin who doesn't expect to smite often, but then we're just comparing sword-and-board to THW (and we already know that Shield Bash is better). On the other hand if they both go THW that's gimping the fighter by not taking full advantage of his feat glut. Further, there is the issue of brilliant energy weapons; after all, the fighter could use one too, and it seems cheesy to bring them up. That IS a major advantage of the paladin though. A fighter's brilliant energy weapon would be useless against over half the enemies in the game, while the paladin has the (incredibly useful) luxory of calling it when he's fighting a fighter and then calling something different when he's fighting a dragon.
We need a Duel- Paladin vs (non-evil)Fighter- see who wins. I hate to say it but I'm actually leaning towards paladin...You have got to be @#$%ing kidding me. Post got wiped. Argh.
Summary: I did this. I used the following fighter, with a scimitar and a shield:
** spoiler omitted **
And I built 2 paladins, one TWF with shield, one TWF with short swords. The fighter mauls the paladin, terribly. He could stand there for 5 rounds and pose while the paladin attempted to hit him, then take out his scimitar and kill the Paladin in 2 rounds (1, depending on how many HP you want to give each. Fighter's DPR vs. a non-shield wearer is around 280. vs. a shield-wearer, about 230). The best Paladin DPR I could get was low double-digits (20-30).
But hey, maybe my ideas for paladin-building suck. Let's play Build Your Own Paladin! Rules:
You get 10 feats, all from PF handbook.
You don't get any buffing rounds.
Tell me:
What are the bonuses on each of your attacks
What is the damage on each of your attacks
What do you critical on
How much bonus damage do you do when you critical
What's your ACAnd I'll simulate what happens when both parties full-attack eachother, DPR-wise.
-Cross (Also, I agree with Hydraxy that the edge goes to Paladin in utility. I am just -damned sure- that the fighter has a massive in-combat edge when it comes to dealing and taking damage.)
Fighter vs paladin I give advantage to paladin with holy mount. 100 movement on charges with ride-by attack and swift action to heal gives plenty time to cast all the spells you want. The paladin who stands there and trades blows with a TWF fighter deserves what he gets..evisceration.
not to mention paladins have a caster level and can easily make their own gear, meaning basically close to double wealth on the fighter. They're both good but you have to use them intelligently. Toe to Toe with a fighter is a bad idea
Ride-By Attack is extremely easy to foil. In almost every case a single 5' step will completely prevent you from using it. Remember, you must charge to the nearest square, and to use Ride-By Attack, you must be able to continue to move in the same line you were moving in. That means the fighter can just sidestep so that your nearest square to him is in a line that his space blocks. No more Ride-By Attack.
Did you literally just give them +10 weapons (as in +10 to attack and damage)? You can't actually do that. The best way to keep things simple is to make both shields and both weapons +5 flaming screaming frost shock acid, for +5d6 energy damage per hit. If the fighter DOES have a brilliant energy weapon- and keep in mind that this is a 200,000 gp mcguffin which is USELESS against half the monsters in the game- he loses 4d6 points of energy damage for it.
When smiting the paladin's attack, damage, and AC boosts all blow the fighter's out of the water. The only reason you have him dealing less damage (even when they both have brilliant energy weapons) is because you didn't give the paladin Imp/Greater TWF.
The paladin still has 10 feats (would be 11 if human, but apparently these are half-orcs or half-elves, as the fighter only has 21). I assume you're saying that the paladin can't afford a high enough dex? That's not comparing apples to apples; he only needs to start with a 13 dex (enough to take advantage of fullplace) and can get the other +6 from a belt.
Here are the feats you gave the fighter again (to be fair, the paladin's feats should probably come from this list):
Critical Focus
Staggering Crit
Dodge
Improved Crit
Power Attack
Imp Shield Bash
Shield Slam
Shield Master
Shield Focus
Greater Shield Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Penetrating Strike
Greater Penetrating Strike
Weapon Spc
Greater Weapon Spec
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, and Greater Penetrating Strike are all fighter-only and are right out as they're fighter-only. If we want to compare apples to apples we should chose the paladin's 10 feats from the remaining 15 there.
Improved Crit he'll skip because he can just bond a keen weapon. Dodge and Shield Focus I'll drop just because you've already calculated his AC on the assumption that he doesn't have them, and he probably wants Weapon Focus but I'll drop it anyway for simplicity's sake (cancels the Weapons Training flub from earlier =p), and TWF rend will go because it has a flat, clean effect on his net damage (and also because it's extra damage that you don't apply smite to). That leaves him with:
Power Attack
Two-weapon Fighting
Imp Shield Bash
Shield Slam
Critical Focus
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Staggering Crit
Double Slice
Shield Master
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Also, when he bonds, it should probably be a keen merciful brilliant energy weapon (+6 total; you were just calling it brilliant energy), giving another +1d6 over the fighter for scimitar attacks only.
If he has time to prepare, though, he'll forgo the keen property because it is incompatible with Bless Weapon- a 1st level spell that duplicates the Fighter's 20th level class feature (every threat confirms as a crit against evil foes).
Also don't neglect to mention that the paladin is healing himself of 60 points of damage (10d6 maximized) every round, except in the round he declares his smite.
On second thought you should probably say that the fighter's weapon is flaming frost shock unholy (so that it bypasses the paladin's damage reduction). It's a little cheesy, but I'll grant you that even a neutral fighter could be using an unholy weapon if he planned on butting heads with paladins.
Ride-By Attack is extremely easy to foil. In almost every case a single 5' step will completely prevent you from using it. Remember, you must charge to the nearest square, and to use Ride-By Attack, you must be able to continue to move in the same line you were moving in. That means the fighter can just sidestep so that your nearest square to him is in a line that his space blocks. No more Ride-By Attack.
Except that lances have reach, and I'm pretty sure once you get smashed by a lance driven by a horse moving full speed no DM's going to let you pretend your character is coherent enough to take a 5 foot step at that moment. Readying a brace weapon would be a much more viably sound tactic for a fighter in that situation, still trading x2 for x3 damage but the fighter has the advantage on specialization and weapon training if that is the case.
Ride-By Attack is extremely easy to foil. In almost every case a single 5' step will completely prevent you from using it. Remember, you must charge to the nearest square, and to use Ride-By Attack, you must be able to continue to move in the same line you were moving in. That means the fighter can just sidestep so that your nearest square to him is in a line that his space blocks. No more Ride-By Attack.Except that lances have reach, and I'm pretty sure once you get smashed by a lance driven by a horse moving full speed no DM's going to let you pretend your character is coherent enough to take a 5 foot step at that moment. Readying a brace weapon would be a much more viably sound tactic for a fighter in that situation, still trading x2 for x3 damage but the fighter has the advantage on specialization and weapon training if that is the case.
Who said anything about readying an action?
However, regarding bonding a keen weapon. Keen is a +3 bonus. If he bonds a keen weapon, he can't bond a Brilliant Energy weapon. Which do you prefer?
PRD says it's +1.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#weapons-keen
Finally, I don't think the fighter needs to take an unholy weapon. He beats the Paladin's DR with Penetrating strike.
You're right, forgot about that.
Also, so long as we're stacking this as much as we can in the Paladin's favor, why not Divine Bond both his weapon and his shield?
That's.. not explicitly forbidden is it? Crap on a cracker. And I thought going TWF-verses-TWF was putting the paladin at a disadvantage.
I don't know which way this would be stacking it, but I would just as soon ignore staggering critical both ways, even though both have it, and just look at DPR. The fighter is better at it (thanks to Weapon Mastery; assuming the paladin doesn't prepare), but the paladin has a pretty good chance of being flat-out immune since "staggered" is on his list of mercies, with no prerequisites.
If the paladin didn't have the staggered mercy, but did have bless weapon up (so that both of them auto-confirmed), and both were making 7 attacks per round with keen scimitars (15-20 crit)... This would almost certainly be bogged down to 1 attack per round before long.
I don't know how I feel about critical feats, personally.
I'd be pretty irritated with a DM that pretended my character was NOT coherent enough to take a 5 foot step. Seriously, he's a fighter, he ought to be even better able to take a beating and keep sticking and moving than a modern pro boxer.Ride-By Attack is extremely easy to foil. In almost every case a single 5' step will completely prevent you from using it. Remember, you must charge to the nearest square, and to use Ride-By Attack, you must be able to continue to move in the same line you were moving in. That means the fighter can just sidestep so that your nearest square to him is in a line that his space blocks. No more Ride-By Attack.Except that lances have reach, and I'm pretty sure once you get smashed by a lance driven by a horse moving full speed no DM's going to let you pretend your character is coherent enough to take a 5 foot step at that moment. Readying a brace weapon would be a much more viably sound tactic for a fighter in that situation, still trading x2 for x3 damage but the fighter has the advantage on specialization and weapon training if that is the case.
Pro boxers didn't just get hit with a lance by a charging warhorse. Now on your turn obviously you get to act normally, but you can't expect a 5 ft step to stop a charging warhorse. I'm not talking about blocking a big guy. I'm talking about a horse that weighs 800-2000 lbs running at full speed wearing armor. All of that momentum and power shrunk down to the tip of a lance and then bursting through your chest... I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
Pro boxers didn't just get hit with a lance by a charging warhorse. Now on your turn obviously you get to act normally, but you can't expect a 5 ft step to stop a charging warhorse. I'm not talking about blocking a big guy. I'm talking about a horse that weighs 800-2000 lbs running at full speed wearing armor. All of that momentum and power shrunk down to the tip of a lance and then bursting through your chest... I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
That's fine, but at that point you're talking house rules, and as such lose all bearing on the conversation.
Who said anything about readying an action?Ride-By Attack is extremely easy to foil. In almost every case a single 5' step will completely prevent you from using it. Remember, you must charge to the nearest square, and to use Ride-By Attack, you must be able to continue to move in the same line you were moving in. That means the fighter can just sidestep so that your nearest square to him is in a line that his space blocks. No more Ride-By Attack.Except that lances have reach, and I'm pretty sure once you get smashed by a lance driven by a horse moving full speed no DM's going to let you pretend your character is coherent enough to take a 5 foot step at that moment. Readying a brace weapon would be a much more viably sound tactic for a fighter in that situation, still trading x2 for x3 damage but the fighter has the advantage on specialization and weapon training if that is the case.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. How are you saying a 5 foot step is going to stop ride by attack unless you're readying to move into the path of the horse at the last second? Remember lances have reach there are multiple options on how he gets to you.
Now do it at levels 5 and 10 so there's some minor correlation to actual gameplay? ;)