Looks interesting.
I am not sure I would go for either the Cleave feats or Guisarme proficiency.
I would focus more on flurry and maybe even some Greater xxx feats.
I would take improved initiative as well.
If you can use something out of the Legacy of Fire player's guide, you might consider taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Meteor Hammer instead of MWP: Guisarme. It's a reach weapon that's a trip and disarming weapon, too, and it even gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC when you're wielding it.
Actually, I'd recommend just taking a level of fighter (or maybe ranger) for the weapon proficiency you want and a free bonus (either a feat or a favored enemy).
If you can use something out of the Legacy of Fire player's guide, you might consider taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Meteor Hammer instead of MWP: Guisarme. It's a reach weapon that's a trip and disarming weapon, too, and it even gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC when you're wielding it.
Actually, I'd recommend just taking a level of fighter (or maybe ranger) for the weapon proficiency you want and a free bonus (either a feat or a favored enemy).
Since the meteor hammer is based upon the spiked chain it should probably be reworked for PRPG.
I looked closely at taking levels of another melee class but I just couldn't square the loss of high level monk abiltities and inherent -1 to class DCs (not to mention the issue of having to wear a monks rob to get 2d10 damage or the loss of 10ft speed).
If you took a single level in fighter (say), you really wouldn't miss out on much, in my opinion, and you would gain two feats (you'd save a feat from MWP: guisarme, and you would gain a free feat).
Your AC, ground speed and unarmed strike damage progression would be one level slower than usual. However, you could use your two free feats for Dodge and Fleet if you wanted to, which would actually put you ahead of the curve most of the time. The other monk abilities mostly fall into the category of "nice, but not necessary" to me.
Also note, Weapon finesse would allow you to use your dex instead of str on attack rolls when unarmed. In addition this thread over here:
Weapon Finesse on Special Kinds of Attacks
Has James saying that weapon finesse combined with a combat maneuver that works with weapons allows you to use dex instead of str on the cmb check. Thats essentially two feats in one! All the goodness of weapon finesse and you essentially also get partial usage of the acrobatic maneuver feat.
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I like it but for one thing. Improved Sunder.
Dms love when a player takes Imp Sunder. Basically it's a good way for a player to reduce the party's wealth before they get it and by taking it at 15th level you are basically guaranteeing that everything you sunder is magical (except for Spell foci, component pouches, and holy symbols which is still a viable option).
I would ditch improved sunder and just go with something else or move up the following feats and adding a final one to the list.
Strength is the way to go for monks. You'll outkill the other melee types, as they will either stand frozen after failing a will save (or worse) or won't be able to match your damage output, or the enemies will surrender, weaponless.
I'd strongly suggest the vital strike chain instead of cleave and great cleave, especially if your DM will try to make opponents flank you or makes enemies spread out to avoid the fireball formation; it's uncommon that cleave kicks in and is a better choice than flurry, great cleave is an event like an eclipse so pretty much a waste of a feat. You'll have so many attacks anyway while flurrying that you won't feel the need for them. Cleave/great cleave is for single weapon fighters mostly. Doubling or tripling the dice on a monk attack with vital strike is a considerable benefit. Weapon focus unarmed and spring attack are good ideas. I don't care for the critical feats for a monk; 20x2 seems to not make them worth it. With stunning fist having all kinds of effects as you level up I don't see the need for staggering critical. See if you can get improved natural attack (BAB 4), most DMs allow it and it stacks nicely with vital strike. Improved disarm is a winner for a monk and highly frustrating for DMs as you can capture the weapons in your hands; I don't care much for grapple and bull rush. I'd delay power attack and take spring attack sooner (10th). Medusa's sounds good but in practice rarely kicks in so you can wait until 14th -- either you'll kill it quickly anyway or it will have a fort save so high that you won't stun them. However as you level up the DC on stunning fist increases so maybe at 14 you'll see a good return for it. Consider dodge and toughness.
Great feedback Addy, thanks.
I did consider the vital strike chain but I thought the eventual reach of 15ft would mitigate the circumstance issues around cleave/great cleave.
So I understand correct does Vital Strike only kick in when you're making a single attack? The feat wording seems a little ambiguous to me...
I really wanted to get weapon focus in earlier but was short on slots – I should probably reconsider this.
What you say makes sense for Spring Attack/Medusa’s Touch. I had wondered whether the latter would be as useful as it sounded. It’s that temptation of extra attacks, I’m a sucker for them!
Improved critical. Hmm. I think if my calculations are correct the %age increase in average damage going from a 20/x2 to a 19-20/x2 is about 18-20% (depending on strength bonus, ac your trying to hit etc) whilst the boost from 19-20/x2 to 17-20/x2 is about 30-33% so yes, significantly more. Still a 20% boost in damage output isn’t to be sniffed at and its only one feat…
Staggering critical. Well certainly not Worthing if you don’t take Improved Crit. Possibly not worth it anyway. I’ll see if I can swap it out for something more useful.
I can see that grapple is very situational but it’s a 1st level choice so there’s not that much else to choose from (although the character does have a low Ac so Dodge might not be a bad choice and I quite fancy Nimble moves) and it does have its uses.
I'll definitely take Improved Natural Attack if I can...
Anyway, lots for me to be going on with!
Hap
I find the guisarme useful almost only for the AoOs, and before getting spring attack (to close in on opponents with reach). I end up not using it often; flurry is so good now that you get full BAB with it (and you don't with the guisarme). It's worth having a guisarme, but I would not take feats based on its use, beyond the proficiency with it.
Vital strike is for "making a good impression" when closing in melee; with it, a strength-based build, some magic items that upgrade as you go up in levels, and stunning fist you can get rid of many casters in two rounds (move in, vital strike, stun; round 2, vital strike, it dies, move out to threaten another caster, if any, so they have to cast defensively, or provide flank and next round you can flurry). If you have improved natural attack and a monk's robe, it can take a large chunk out of an opponent's hit points even if it's a single attack.
If my algebra skills are still working, improved critical will net you a constant 5% increase in damage output on a 20/x2 crit chance (0.05/1.05 ~= 5%), regardless of the actual chance to hit or damage -- these things simplify out. It's a very small benefit, about half the worth of weapon focus. Improved critical with a 19-20x2 weapon gives you a 9% increase, more in line with other feats.
You're going to get a lot of agro, as firepower will/should concentrate on the enemy causing the most trouble. However, you're a bit squishy, that's why I suggested dodge and toughness. I'll bet a large pizza with 5 toppings that you won't regret it.
Great feedback Addy, thanks.I did consider the vital strike chain but I thought the eventual reach of 15ft would mitigate the circumstance issues around cleave/great cleave.
...
Now you make me wonder if you can use two different weapons with cleave. As in, one opponent is 5' away so you use an unarmed attack, and the next one is 10' away (but adjacent to the first) so you use the guisarme (to trip or whatever). The feat description seems to allow it. Nice idea if it works, I hadn't thought of that; I assumed that you had to keep the same weapon.
I'm starting a monk in Pathfinder and, as always, am looking for a slightly different approach. I like the idea of having the character have flexibility without using lots of feats whilst maximizing the potential of the basics (damage, lots of hits, mobility).
The rest of the party includes a fighter, rogue, wizard, bard and druid. Not all are present every time we play.
It's a 15 point buy...
Human Monk
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 14
Chr 7Feat Progression
1 Toughness
1 Weapon Proficiency: Guisarm
1 Improved Grapple
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
5 Cleave
6 Improved Disarm
7 Great Cleave
9 Lunge
10 Medusa's Wrath
11 Improved Critical
13 Weapon Focus: Unarmed
14 Spring Attack
15 Improved Sunder
17 Critical Focus
18 Improved Bull Rush
19 Staggering CriticalI want to be able to trip, disarm, grapple and sunder (in particular) but I didn't want to compromise on Strength, nor spend too many feats on improved xxx so i could add some other interesting feats to the character.
The basic principle here is using the Guisarm to attack from range to avoid AoO until Lung kicks in and I can use Flurry with a 10ft reach. Eventually the character takes Improved Sunder as unarmed damage and adamantine fists is very nice for sundering.
The biggest issue here is AC (I can just about live with the puny skill allocation), especially when cleaving or lunging but I intend to use the fighter and later the druid as protection wherever possible :)
His damage output should be pretty impressive and even without the Improved feats he should have a good chance of most combat manoeuvres working. Great Cleave is going to make me a target at times but the combination of a reach weapon and unarmed attacks should give me some protection with AoO as enemies move in.
You have another option to get some nice feats and the weapon. You could take 5Ftr/15 Monk, weapon training, monk weapons, wear a monk belt/robe/whatever it is now to get the 2d10 damage, and you'd get 3 extra feats. Flurry of power-attacking-quarterstaff is always fun too.
Yeah, it is tempting but for the moment I'm going to stick pure monk as I ant to keep my Monk Special Attack DCs as high as possible throughout the build.
What attack DCs are you talking about? Note that Stunning Fist's DC is based on character level, not monk class level, and likewise for Gorgon/Scorpion Fist. The only DC that's based on monk level is Quivering Palm (which is a bit of a dud anyways, IMO).
Yeah, it is tempting but for the moment I'm going to stick pure monk as I ant to keep my Monk Special Attack DCs as high as possible throughout the build.
You have another option to get some nice feats and the weapon. You could take 5Ftr/15 Monk, weapon training, monk weapons, wear a monk belt/robe/whatever it is now to get the...
Vital strike was made for monks. If you take 20 monk, enlarge yourself (giving yourself reach without using a feat) and do spring attack vital strikes you're doing 12d8 and your movement is off the chart. If someone wants to let you full attack them and charges you you get to flurry them for 4d8 a pop. That being said, with as awesome as power attack is on 2 handed weapons and cheaper enchants I really like flurry quarterstaffs. You also don't really look suspicious walking around unarmored in the wilderness with a walking stick.
That was my assumption which gives it a little more flexibility I think.
Having said that I'm not convinced either the cleave route or vital strike are worth the investment as Spring attack won't work with either and I think that will be the preferred method when I'm not flurrying. Perhaps Vital Strike at higher level once the damage dice are better?
Actually opinions are divided regarding whether Vital Strike works with Spring Attack. The wording is unclear; it very well might. I personally think that it should, and if it doesn't I'll be very disappointed.
Vital strike was made for monks. If you take 20 monk, enlarge yourself (giving yourself reach without using a feat) and do spring attack vital strikes you're doing 12d8 and your movement is off the chart. If someone wants to let you full attack them and charges you you get to flurry them for 4d8 a pop. That being said, with as awesome as power attack is on 2 handed weapons and cheaper enchants I really like flurry quarterstaffs. You also don't really look suspicious walking around unarmored in the wilderness with a walking stick.
I don't think you get the +3 bonus for 2-handed, because it's a double weapon and you're using it as if you had TWF. The only "awesome" thing is that as you don't have an offhand attack you get +2 from power attack on both attacks. Note that:
"Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp)." Same if you make it of silver, etc, so I think it may cost double if you enchant it.
In any case, the +3 to +5 quarterstaff is an option to bypass DR...
OK, this is where I've got to;
...
What do you think?Hap
Improved Natural Attack is in the PF druid animal companion list of feats on p. 53, so you should be able to take it. Otherwise, looks like a solid build to me. Step up may not be a bad idea for those last levels, because lunge doesn't allow you to threaten when it's not your turn.
Vital strike was made for monks. If you take 20 monk, enlarge yourself (giving yourself reach without using a feat) and do spring attack vital strikes you're doing 12d8 and your movement is off the chart. If someone wants to let you full attack them and charges you you get to flurry them for 4d8 a pop. That being said, with as awesome as power attack is on 2 handed weapons and cheaper enchants I really like flurry quarterstaffs. You also don't really look suspicious walking around unarmored in the wilderness with a walking stick.I don't think you get the +3 bonus for 2-handed, because it's a double weapon and you're using it as if you had TWF. The only "awesome" thing is that as you don't have an offhand attack you get +2 from power attack on both attacks. Note that:
"Adding the masterwork quality to a double weapon costs twice the normal increase (+600 gp)." Same if you make it of silver, etc, so I think it may cost double if you enchant it.
In any case, the +3 to +5 quarterstaff is an option to bypass DR...
As with any double weapon, you can choose to use it to TWF (holding it in the middle) or swing as a two-handed weapon(holding it at one end). You don't get 1.5x STR to damage, because it specifically states that you only get 1X str damage, but you do get the greater power attack damage
As with any double weapon, you can choose to use it to TWF (holding it in the middle) or swing as a two-handed weapon(holding it at one end). You don't get 1.5x STR to damage, because it specifically states that you only get 1X str damage, but you do get the greater power attack damage
If you swing as a two-handed weapon then you can't flurry, because flurry is based off TWF now.
If you swing as a two-handed weapon then you can't flurry, because flurry is based off TWF now.
As with any double weapon, you can choose to use it to TWF (holding it in the middle) or swing as a two-handed weapon(holding it at one end). You don't get 1.5x STR to damage, because it specifically states that you only get 1X str damage, but you do get the greater power attack damage
Where is that in the book? can you flurry with one siangam, one nunchaku, one end of a staff, one hand?
Where is that in the book? can you flurry with one siangam, one nunchaku, one end of a staff, one hand?
What makes you think you can do TWF with a two-handed weapon wielded with both hands? Also, the only explanation I see for not getting the 1.5 strength bonus is because you're not swinging it as a 2-handed weapon. House-rule it to have both, if not then have neither -- it needs to be consistent, it doesn't make sense otherwise.
What makes you think you can do TWF with a two-handed weapon wielded with both hands? Also, the only explanation I see for not getting the 1.5 strength bonus is because you're not swinging it as a 2-handed weapon. House-rule it to have both, if not then have neither -- it needs to be consistent, it doesn't make sense otherwise.
Where is that in the book? can you flurry with one siangam, one nunchaku, one end of a staff, one hand?
Flurry of blows isn't two weapon fighting. It gives you the same attack sequence as two weapon fighting. It is a separate ability. Nowhere in the description of flurry of blows. You can always choose to use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon and flurry of blows doesn't state otherwise.
Flurry of blows isn't two weapon fighting. It gives you the same attack sequence as two weapon fighting. It is a separate ability. Nowhere in the description of flurry of blows. You can always choose to use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon and flurry of blows doesn't state otherwise.
From the description of flurry of blows:
"... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat ..."Can't be clearer than that. If you don't believe me start your own thread with this question and see what people say. I'll bet a large pizza with extra cheese that most people will tell you that they wouldn't let you get away with that, or something to that effect.
Flurry of blows isn't two weapon fighting. It gives you the same attack sequence as two weapon fighting. It is a separate ability. Nowhere in the description of flurry of blows. You can always choose to use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon and flurry of blows doesn't state otherwise.
From the description of flurry of blows:
"... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat ..."Can't be clearer than that. If you don't believe me start your own thread with this question and see what people say. I'll bet a large pizza with extra cheese that most people will tell you that they wouldn't let you get away with that, or something to that effect.
Its is used as if using two weapon fighting, however your forgetting a key element of a monk. That is, i'm not restricted to my hands, whole point behind flurry is idea that i have two hands, feet, elbows, knees, and even my head. My body is a weapon idea that i could smash you with a staff spin around and kick you in the groin and jump forward and smash you in nose with my head is pretty core. Not saying i'd let him get away with it ethier =P however your argument isn't overly sound. Only WORKS like two weapon fighting in, that you get same amount of attacks, and doesn't stack with two weapon fighting feats.
Can you use a two handed weapon and flurry? yes and no, i'd force player to choose... unarmed attacks or two handed weapon. Unless its specfically lists that weapon as a monk weapon can flurry with you have to choose one or the 0ther. Now still makes carrying it for AoO's very viable.
Flurry of blows isn't two weapon fighting. It gives you the same attack sequence as two weapon fighting. It is a separate ability. Nowhere in the description of flurry of blows. You can always choose to use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon and flurry of blows doesn't state otherwise.
From the description of flurry of blows:
"... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat ..."Can't be clearer than that. If you don't believe me start your own thread with this question and see what people say. I'll bet a large pizza with extra cheese that most people will tell you that they wouldn't let you get away with that, or something to that effect.
Its is used as if using two weapon fighting, however your forgetting a key element of a monk. That is, i'm not restricted to my hands, whole point behind flurry is idea that i have two hands, feet, elbows, knees, and even my head. My body is a weapon idea that i could smash you with a staff spin around and kick you in the groin and jump forward and smash you in nose with my head is pretty core. Not saying i'd let him get away with it ethier =P however your argument isn't overly sound. Only WORKS like two weapon fighting in, that you get same amount of attacks, and doesn't stack with two weapon fighting feats.
Can you use a two handed weapon and flurry? yes and no, i'd force player to choose... unarmed attacks or two handed weapon. Unless its specfically lists that weapon as a monk weapon can flurry with you have to choose one or the 0ther. Now still makes carrying it for AoO's very viable.
Yep. I think if a lot of people researched some things before they assumed that they were the same a lot of controversy wouldn't come up. Bo Jitsu, the most famous Japanese staff style typically holds in the middle. They will, however come down to the end to swing it for more power and reach. The Japanese short staff, or Jo, is typically held down on one end for more power and reach. Chinese Longpole is typically held at the end for more reach and power, but they will come up to the middle or even the front to change it up. I'm not an expert on phillipean staff fighting, but the little I've done it's all down on the end for power and reach. Assume you're fighting someone in armor and with a sword. You need to A) not get killed and B) hit them HARD.
Flurry of blows isn't two weapon fighting. It gives you the same attack sequence as two weapon fighting. It is a separate ability. Nowhere in the description of flurry of blows. You can always choose to use a double weapon as a two-handed weapon and flurry of blows doesn't state otherwise.
From the description of flurry of blows:
"... as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat ..."Can't be clearer than that. If you don't believe me start your own thread with this question and see what people say. I'll bet a large pizza with extra cheese that most people will tell you that they wouldn't let you get away with that, or something to that effect.
Your keywords here are "as if" meaning not exactly. Do rangers get two-weapon fighting as a bonus feat or do they get to attack "as if"
Comparing two things that are similar and calling them the same thing is not always the way to go.
What makes you think you can do TWF with a two-handed weapon wielded with both hands? Also, the only explanation I see for not getting the 1.5 strength bonus is because you're not swinging it as a 2-handed weapon. House-rule it to have both, if not then have neither -- it needs to be consistent, it doesn't make sense otherwise.
Where is that in the book? can you flurry with one siangam, one nunchaku, one end of a staff, one hand?
It specifically says that you can flurry with a weapon held in both hands (e.g. a quarterstaff):
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. "
Of course that doesn't help with a guisarme, since it's not a monk weapon.
What makes you think you can do TWF with a two-handed weapon wielded with both hands? Also, the only explanation I see for not getting the 1.5 strength bonus is because you're not swinging it as a 2-handed weapon. House-rule it to have both, if not then have neither -- it needs to be consistent, it doesn't make sense otherwise.
Where is that in the book? can you flurry with one siangam, one nunchaku, one end of a staff, one hand?
It specifically says that you can flurry with a weapon held in both hands (e.g. a quarterstaff):
"A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. "
Of course that doesn't help with a guisarme, since it's not a monk weapon.
I know, I read the description. My question was to illustrate that if a monk can flurry with one one-handed monk weapon he can flurry with one end of his quarterstaff, and in fact that is a smart tactical decision and cheaper than enchanting both sides of the staff. A benefit of the monk class.
I know, I read the description. My question was to illustrate that if a monk can flurry with one one-handed monk weapon he can flurry with one end of his quarterstaff, and in fact that is a smart tactical decision and cheaper than enchanting both sides of the staff. A benefit of the monk class.
My response was really to addy_grete's question: "What makes you think you can do TWF with a two-handed weapon wielded with both hands?"