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Charm Person has become a hot topic in our campaign as one PC has been using it repeatedly at low level fights.
Here is the story. We killed a lot of clerical acolytes. One stabilized and we healed him up to interrogate him. Once we were finished, the PC cast Charm Person and the NPC failed the saving throw.
He began to tell the NPC "you don't remember killing all your friends ?" "you became possessed by evil" even though the person that was charmed did in fact witness the true event. He told the npc that it "was all an illusion" and "I'm your friend, I wouldn't lie to you".
Would this work ? Obviously you can't change a persons memories with charm person, but could you use the fact that they are your friend to CONVINCE them that their memories were fake ?
From the spell "This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your
allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw."
Using this vocabulary from "trusted friend" would he automatically believe what the person is telling him as truth even though it is a severely radical lie ?
The PC is not asking the NPC to complete an action of any kind in order to stay within the boundaries of the spell.
If yes, how would you go about making the PC administer these lies ? Bluff checks with bonuses ?
If he fails, what would happen ? If you lie to a "friend" and they find out, they would be upset. However, he is magically enamored to be his friend.
Seeking numerous opinions of the intelligent masses.
Charm Person has become a hot topic in our campaign as one PC has been using it repeatedly at low level fights.
Here is the story. We killed a lot of clerical acolytes. One stabilized and we healed him up to interrogate him. Once we were finished, the PC cast Charm Person and the NPC failed the saving throw.
He began to tell the NPC "you don't remember killing all your friends ?" "you became possessed by evil" even though the person that was charmed did in fact witness the true event. He told the npc that it "was all an illusion" and "I'm your friend, I wouldn't lie to you".
Would this work ? Obviously you can't change a persons memories with charm person, but could you use the fact that they are your friend to CONVINCE them that their memories were fake ?
From the spell "This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your
allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw."Using this vocabulary from "trusted friend" would he automatically believe what the person is telling him as truth even though it is a severely radical lie ?
The PC is not asking the NPC to complete an action of any kind in order to stay within the boundaries of the spell.
If yes, how would you go about making the PC administer these lies ? Bluff checks with bonuses ?
If he fails, what would happen ? If you lie to a "friend" and they find out, they would be upset. However, he is magically enamored to be his friend.
Seeking numerous opinions of the intelligent masses.
It would actually be a bluff check with a severe penalty. It definately qualifies as a far fetched (-10) or even an impossible (-20). Being friendly does not help with bluff checks in my view, after all just being friends with someone doesnt mean you believe what they say. You are not making a 'request' so the friendly status caused by charm person doesnt really apply, your player is asking the npc to believe something, that is bluff.
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This would definitely fall outside of the purview of the Charm Person spell. Charm Person does not provide a mind control option to make an NPC "forget" something he has just seen or done. The effects you describe are the province of spells like Suggestion, Dominate Person, and some of the more powerful Psionic disciplines.
Charm Person makes someone friendly, and willing to help or aid the caster as long as no personal harm will befall the spell's target. It can also be used to have the spell's target tell the caster something they may not otherwise have told him. That is it. Keep in mind, Charm Person is just a 1st level spell so its effects are somewhat limited.
Hope this helps!
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Btw, I have modified the spell description so that past or future attacks against the target's allies (or apparent allies) also grant the bonus to the save.
It just doesn't make sense to me that you could slaughter an ally right next to the target and then charm them so they're friendly towards you.
The charm person would give him a reason to listen to you but that story is pretty darn thin. He likes you but that doesn't mean he will believe the sun is blue and the sky is orange just because you said so.
If you can't come up with something better than that my response would be.
The priest places his hand on your shoulder saying, "I will pray for your soul dear friend. Perhaps I can visit you in prison and bring you to redemption before the execution."
This one is easy.
We need look no farther than the Bluff skill, since your PC is bluffing the NPC with an outright lie.
The Charm Person makes him friendly, but friendship grants no inability to perceive a lie, so friendship doesn't modify the Bluff check.
However, the spell uses the term "trusted friend", and while friendship doesn't sway the ability to perceive the lie, trust does. So it seems easy enough to apply the bonus for "The target really wants to believe you" (see the Bluff chart on page 90).
Now as for the bluff itself, that lie was extremely far-fetched. Further, the surviving NPC knows how tough he is, and how tough all his friends are. Does he believe he has the power to kill them all? If he doesn't think so, then I would call this lie "impossible" rather than "far-fetched".
So, assuming -20 for impossible and +5 for wanting to believe the lie, your PC should have to make a Bluff check at opposed by the victim's Sense Motive and the bluff check would be at -15 to the roll.
I hope he's got lots of ranks in Bluff...
My group has had issues with charm person in the past--issues with desiring it to be much more than it was intended to be. They often wanted a charmed enemy to cough up secret plans, go fetch them the BBEG's magic sword, and a host of other things they would never do. As stated above, just because you're my friend (or charmed enemy) doesn't mean I like you, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to drop everything to do what you tell me.
A 1st-level spell is weak, and should be limited in what it can do: remember that. Charm person is NOT dominate person, nor is it even suggestion, even though that may be how some want to use it. These latter two spells have much more powerful uses and those uses should be reserved for those spells. If someone wants to command a charmed person, they should use the Intimidate skill; if they want to deceive a charmed person, they should use the Bluff skill; if they want secret information, they should use the Diplomacy skill.
As I've ruled to my formerly confused group, charm person basically just makes them quit being an attacker for a while. It doesn't make them do or think things that another PC wouldn't do or think.
As stated above, just because you're my friend (or charmed enemy) doesn't mean I like you, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to drop everything to do what you tell me.
Bolded mine: Um, I tend to like my friends, and am Helpful towards them at the least, sometimes going out of my way to do something I know they would like, or getting them something I know they want. That doesn't mean I break my morals, or betray my other friends for them, or that I'll risk my life doing something stupid for them, however I might consider doing something more than small if they have a reason and ask nicely.
If you cast the spell, then treat them as you would a normal friend you can get normal friend like things done by them.
This is of course colored by alignment -- A LG person won't murder someone for you however the CE guy might do so if you point out the target is deserves it, or the CE guy won't get caught for doing so, et al.
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Thanks for all the additional feedback, I asked for intelligent responses and I got them.
While we're on the topic - does the NPC know that he is under the effects of the spell ? OR does he know that he WAS once the spell has worn off ?
Furthermore, how do you handle your campaign when the spell wears off ?
Let's use the above example of giving away secret plans. If the PC does indeed succeed at using a charmed NPC to give away secret information - when the spell wears off what happens.
Play the situation from there. NPC gives information. Group lets him go. Spell wears off. NPC returns to, lets say, a thieves guild. Thieves guild leader says
"You drew them a map to the secret ruins where we hold all our gold !? Why did you do that !?"
NPC responses
a. "I was compelled by a magical force."
b. "I don't know. He was extremely friendly and I felt as though he should have them."
c. "I don't remember ... it's all a little fuzzy."
d. "Please don't kill me ! I blacked out !"
e. Other (insert response here)
In addition, what response would the NPC give if the spell had NOT worn off at this point ? "Yeah, he's a buddy of mine ... it's not a big deal." ?
Ok I'm going a bit house rule here, but the whole area is fuzzy anyways so you've been warned!
IF the players were nice to him during the time he thought he was the character's friend, the character provides good reasons for needing what he is asking for, and generally treats him well and as a friend, then I leave the NPC's attitude at helpful and friendly for the time being. In this case the spell is a bit more of an ice breaker that allowed for first contact. He might not even mention he drew his friends a map, nothing to really worry over, or he might ask them for it back, afraid he'll get in trouble if anyone finds out it was him. This would develop according to role play, and skill checks by the PCs.
IF the players were 'weird' and didn't treat him well, or he finds out they lied to him/ used the map in a way that hurts him/ etc then he acts outraged at their betrayal and quickly points out that while they were friends that's over now, and would you like for me to slit their throats in their sleep sir?
I realize the spell doesn't say it keeps them friendly, however diplomacy could do it after they already think of you as a friend.
IF the NPC knows exactly what spell was cast on him I would give him a bonus on the first save throw, and maybe require a bit more role play and fandangoing from the PC's to get what they want, however it would be like having that friend that always comes around to bum some money/ lawnmower/ etc from you. Still a friend but you're not about to just let them have what they want.
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The rules say that if you make your save against a spell with no obvious effect, you still know you made a save against an incoming spell. Nothing about Charm Person monkeys with your memory, just makes you friendly toward the caster. The charmed person has full recollection of what they witnessed, and if that includes witnessing the caster casting a spell at them, then they know they were under a spell. Now as long as they are still friendly, they can laugh it off, but when the spell ends, and they go back to being not-friendly, they are likely to be very not-friendly with the caster.
just because you're my friend (or charmed enemy) doesn't mean I like you,
What now?
I think you might need to whip out a dictionary and look up "friend". I am quite certain that some degree of liking a person is part of the general definition of the word "friend".
and it certainly doesn't mean I'm going to drop everything to do what you tell me.
Now, this is true.
As much as I like my friends, they won't be talking me into robbing a bank, cheating on my wife (Mrs. Tarrasque), or hurting one of my other friends. Or a myriad of other things.
Friends have no power over me (I outgrew that whole peer-pressure thing back in highschool) to make me do anything I don't want to do, and I won't ruin my life or the lives of others for a friend.
On the other hand, I'm willing to do anything I can or my friends, up to and including risking my life to save theirs, if it came to that. I would protect them, defend them, and do anything within reason to help them. But, if they broke a law, for example, murdered someone, and came to me to protect them from the police, I wouldn't likely do that for them. Aiding and abetting would ruin my life, and it was their choice to break the law, and we have laws for reasons, so I figure it's time fo them to face the consequences.
A 1st-level spell is weak, and should be limited in what it can do: remember that. Charm person is NOT dominate person, nor is it even suggestion, even though that may be how some want to use it. These latter two spells have much more powerful uses and those uses should be reserved for those spells. If someone wants to command a charmed person, they should use the Intimidate skill; if they want to deceive a charmed person, they should use the Bluff skill; if they want secret information, they should use the Diplomacy skill.
All quite true.
As I've ruled to my formerly confused group, charm person basically just makes them quit being an attacker for a while.
Well, it does make them "regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly)."
That is quite a bit more friendly than your definition of "quite being an attacker for a while".
The charmed victim should regard the charmer as a trusted friend. He should try to be helpful, just like you would be helpful to your trusted friends.
You would help your friends, wouldn't you? At least within reason, right?
It doesn't make them do or think things that another PC wouldn't do or think.
Quite true, except that it does make them think you are a "trusted friend and ally."
As far as that goes, Charm Person really does make them think that, at least for the duration of the spell, or until you do somthing to break their trust or friendship (I find my trusted friend making moves on Mrs. Tarrasque or our little junior Tarrasques, and that trusted friend very quickly - as a free action no less - goes right on my enemy list, Charmp Person or not).
While we're on the topic - does the NPC know that he is under the effects of the spell?
Absolutely not.
This guy (and all guys in D&D) knows he lives in a world full of dangerous and scary magic. I cannot imagine any scenario where I would be friendly toward someone who had just cast some unknown scary spell on me. Even if I thought he was my friend, I would be extremely pissed off that someone I thought I could trust was whipping around dangerous magic and putting me under the influence of it.
No, no way the charmed person can know this spell is affecting him, or it would instantly defeat the purpose of the spell.
OR does he know that he WAS once the spell has worn off ?
This is more of a gray area.
My answer is that he does not specifically know he was under the influence of a spell. However, he will remember everything he said and did, and no doubt, not that the spell has worn off, he will think it's very odd that he behaved that way towards someone he had never seen before (or someone he has seen around town but was never particularly friendly with).
No doubt he will question those actions, and since he lives in a world of dangerous and scary magic, he is very likely to conclude that he was under the influence of something, and whatever it was, it was probably magic.
It would go worse at this point, when he concludes that, if he can remember seeing a spell being cast at him. It might be best to cast your Charm Persons from concealment whenever possible.
Furthermore, how do you handle your campaign when the spell wears off ?
That depends on what the PCs made the character do.
Making a farmer friendly so you can sleep in his barn is no big deal. Later when it wears off, he'd probably shake his head and grumble about stupid wizards that could have just asked nicely and he would have let them sleep there anyway.
But making that same farmer pull his grandfather's magical heirloom sword out of the floorboards and "loan" it to you so you can go hunt marauding orcs and keep his farm safe (and of course you never return it), he's going to be really pissed off. He's going to remember your face. He'll probably go to the local authorities and report a theft and (depending on the laws of the land) unlawful use of magic. Let's hope you never see him again...
It's all situational, but if you don't abuse your status as a "trusted friend and ally" then he will only be pissed that you used magic on him. On the other hand, if you did abuse that status, he may become extremely vengeful and you will have an enemy for life (not really a big deal if he started out as an enemy).
Let's use the above example of giving away secret plans. If the PC does indeed succeed at using a charmed NPC to give away secret information - when the spell wears off what happens.
Play the situation from there. NPC gives information. Group lets him go. Spell wears off. NPC returns to, lets say, a thieves guild. Thieves guild leader says
"You drew them a map to the secret ruins where we hold all our gold !? Why did you do that !?"
NPC responses
a. "I was compelled by a magical force."
b. "I don't know. He was extremely friendly and I felt as though he should have them."
c. "I don't remember ... it's all a little fuzzy."
d. "Please don't kill me ! I blacked out !"
e. Other (insert response here)
He knows magic was used, unless he's very stupid. Total stranger walks up to him and he treats him like a best friend for a while, then later, it wears off and he realizes that behavior was totally against his nature - especially for a sneaky secretive thieves' guild member.
So yeah, the first answer or some variation of it is what he'd say:
"Hey, boss, they got mages with them and they used magic on me. They know everything. I ran straight here to warn you they're coming. Break out those potions of Owl's Wisdom and the wand of Protection from Good!"
In addition, what response would the NPC give if the spell had NOT worn off at this point ? "Yeah, he's a buddy of mine ... it's not a big deal." ?
This one is awkward.
I'm going to assume that this thieves' guild, like all others, has very strict rules prohibiting drawing maps to show non-members how to find their hidden treasure stash. Correct me if I'm wrong...
I'll further assume that anyone stupid enough to do this would have a very short lifespan once the guild found out, and I'll also assume our charmed victim knows all this, since he's a member of this guild.
So, admitting he drew his trusted friend a map is a death sentence.
On the other hand, that is his trusted friend and ally.
So I would have him behave exactly as if two things were true:
1. No Charm Person spell was ever cast, and
2. The PC really is his trusted friend and ally.
So now what would he do?
Confess and die? Hell no. He's going to lie his butt off. If that doesn't work (the guild leader has a witness, for example) then he's going right to begging and pleading for his life, even to the point, probably, of rolling over on his trusted friend and giving up his name and where he lives - most criminals right here in our world today will do this to save themselves from a short stay in jail, and just about all of them will do this to save themselves from a death sentence. No reason our charmed victim wouldn't do the same.
But now it gets weird.
Chances are that this charmed victim doesn't know the charmer's name or home address. Chances are that when the guild leader tries really really hard to get this information (read between the lines: torture) it will become evident that our little victim was behaving oddly, throwing his life away to draw a map for a person he seemed to trust but really didn't know.
The charmed victim may not realize at this point that magic was used, but the guild leader probably will - or at least he'll strongly suspect it.
Which doesn't mean he'll grant a stay of execution for the poor shmuck who drew the map, but it does mean he'll have some better idea of what he's facing.
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your friend to CONVINCE them that their memories were fake ?
Bluff checks with bonuses ?
First this is an "Ask your DM" question, as there is no RAW.
Second, haven't you ever had a trusted friend in real life either lie to you to play a joke on your or lie to you because he remembered an event different than you. Did you go alone with the friend's interpretation despite you clearly remembering it differently? Generally, you would call BS on your "trusted friend" and tell him he is wrong. At least most people would do so.
If your PC is lying, he MUST by RAW make a Bluff check.
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I agree with DM Blake's take on this. Every time a DM has cast this on one of my PCs, I roleplayed a look of utter disgust and anger on the face of my PC, as he looked at his fellow party members butchering his "new friend" (i.e. the enemy caster who had just charmed my PC).
If I play a warrior-type, it was usually followed by "Nooooooooooooooooo!" and I started attacking the party members I wasn't fond of to start with, and if it came to that, incapacitate (grapple/trip/overrun) the party members my PC had more respect for.
If I played a cleric or bard, I usually went talkative for a while "Why! stop! this is madness!!!" followed by defensive spells for my "new friend."
If I played a wizard (higher level) then I took a step towards my "new friend" and teleported him to safety. If afterwards, my "new friend" was pissed that I essentially made him abandon his fellows, I usually said "I care about you, but not so much about them," which is a low-emotion, intellectual response for one who has the power to teleport around and cares about someone and wants to protect them against my fellow party members, who were "strangely acting out of character and wishing harm to my new friend". (Actually, a highly intelligent wizard who sees his long-time party member turn on his "new friend" would have reason to believe they all failed their save and are in some kind of mind control... after all, *they* have weak minds, unlike the wizard! :) So the intelligent wizard would solve two problems at once by teleporting his new friend away: he saves his "new friend" and prevents undue harm to his fellow party members. Remember that the friends of his "new friend" are NOT the friends of the wizard, and the wizard may retain his full, unabashed hate against his "new friend's" minions or partners!!! An actual roleplay outcome could be the wizard saying "new friend, you should stay away from the people I saw you with earlier, as they are criminals! my friends and I were actually sent to deal with them... when I saw you!! I immediately thought you did not belong there! what's going on? were they pressing you in servitude? are they blackmailing you into something!?! worse! have they cast any mind control spells on you?!?!? O_O )
:)
Since they were trying to convince them of something, and came up with plausable excuses as to why their story was correct, they should at least be made to roll a bluff check. Then the Cleric gets a sense motive, and it rolls from there.
Just because you are my trusted friend doesn't mean I will believe you when you say "Honestly, I tripped, fell out of my clothes, and right ontop your wife!"
Yup.
This ends the thread, why does it keep going?