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In 3.5, there was errata on how this works and no one agreed with it and developed their own rules how to run it. At least, that is how it has been with me, an argument.
How does this work in melee to spot the Hide in Plain Site creature? Does the Hide in Plain Site creature use the rules for sniping except that it is used for melee instead of ten feet away? When do you make a hide check, before, during, or after the round is over? Does the person keep his roll from round to round, or does he roll each round? How does the enemy of the Hide in Plain Site creature spot him during his turn, or the Hide in Plain Site creature's turn?
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How does this work in melee to spot the Hide in Plain Site creature?
I believe the Ranger special ability to Hide in Plain Sight (note the spelling, "site" has a completely different meaning) does not grant any unusual use of the Stealth skill.
Ergo, treat it exactly like your ranger gained a normal Stealth condition (such as using cover or concealment to make his Stealth check, only he doesn't really have cover or concealment).
Does the Hide in Plain Site creature use the rules for sniping except that it is used for melee instead of ten feet away?
I don't see why not. Nothing per RAW that seems to argue against it.
Logically, I would think that hiding in plain sight, in the real world, would mean zipping behind a tree, or dropping down behind a shrub, or wearing camoflage and standing super still so your enemies don't see you. None of that makes any sense when you're 5' away from someone bopping them on the head with a sword.
But then, this is a very high level class ability in a world with stranger magic than this, so I suppose I'll chalk it up to "Ranger Magic" and not worry about it.
When do you make a hide check, before, during, or after the round is over?
The same time you make the check any other time you use Stealth. The Hide in Plain Sight ability doesn't change any Stealth rule except for the one rule that you need to be unobserved to hide.
So, since you would make a Stealth roll each time you move, including the move action when you first attempt to hide, then using Hide in Plain Sight requires you to make a Stealth roll when you move, including the move action when you attempt to hide.
So, bop the dragon on the head, then use a move action to Hide in Plain Sight (make the roll right now). Next time it's your turn, you can bop him on the head again (which automatically breaks your Stealth) or you can try to move around, which maintains your Stealth but requires a new roll.
Does the person keep his roll from round to round, or does he roll each round?
Just like any other attempt to use Stealth, you would make a new roll each time you take an action that might break your Stealth, such as moving. Note that some actions automatically break Stealth, such as attacking or sniping (which is why a new Stealth check is needed to resume being Stealthed after the attack).
Yes, your roll persists through everyone else's turns. If the dragon tries to perceive you on his turn, he will roll his Perception check against the last Stealth check you made.
When your turn comes around again, you can do one of three things:
1. Do nothing. Because you're not moving and you're not doing anything to improve your stealthiness, you don't make a new Stealth roll; you continue using the last one.
2. Do something that might break your Stealth, like moving. Now you must make a new Stealth check.
3. Do something that automatically breaks your Stealth, like attacking. Now everyone can see you. Use the normal Stealth rules for resuming Stealth (including the fact that you can Hide in Plain Sight).
How does the enemy of the Hide in Plain Site creature spot him during his turn, or the Hide in Plain Site creature's turn?
When the dragon tries to find you, on his turn (not yours), he will attempt a Perception check opposed by the last Stealth check you rolled. You don't need a new Stealth check.
Technically, that's not quite true.
According to the Perception rules, you make Perceptions checks reactively in accordance with a stimulus. The logical stimulus in these situations is when any enemy makes a Stealth roll.
The reason for this is that Stealth is opposed by Perception automatically, so if you're trying to use Stealth, anyone who might want to see you automatically gets a Perception check to oppose it.
They should make that check on your turn, immediately as soon as you roll your Stealth check.
However, I find that very tedious as a DM. I don't like having to remember or right down which of the 27 kobolds saw you hide and which didn't.
So what I do is save their opposed roll until it's their turn. If there is someone else for the kobold (or dragon) to attack, they might just attack the obvious threat. If not, well, you did roll a Stealth check and they are allowed an opposed Perception check, so I roll it on their turn.
In the case of 27 kobolds, maybe only 2 of them will even look for you and and make those rolls, so why bother rolling all 27 of them and then having to track the results?
Also note that the opposed Perception check is allowed, and it's a free action (heck, they do it on your turn by RAW). Your enemies can also use a Move action to try to actively search for you, which gives them a Perception check to oppose your last Stealth roll.
So if that dragon really really wants to find you when you Hide in Plain Sight on your turn, he gets his immediate free opposed roll, then on his turn he can use a move action to roll again, and another move action to roll a 3rd time, all against your last Stealth check. But three strikes and he's out...
I am not sure about the 3.5 errata, I have never heard of it before, although I have seen many unofficial discussions about the ability. I googled “hide in plain sight” + errata, with no luck. But this is how it is used in the game I am in. And any arguments for other ways, that I have seen so far, have in my mind contradicted what is actually written in the descriptions.
STEALTH:
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
HiPS:
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
SU:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
STEALTH SKILL ACTION:
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
PERCEPTION SKILL ACTION:
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
Disregard the rules for sniping in this instance. Sniping is not a supernatural ability; it is an alternate use of the stealth skill that anyone can attempt. So, HiPS is a SU ability that allows you to use stealth while being observed as long as you are within 10’ of dim light. The use of stealth is no action, made usually as part of a move action. Therefore someone with HiPS should be able to use their stealth skill in any round during a move action, as long as they are within 10’ of dim light. Which automatically would trigger opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.
When do you make a hide check, before, during, or after the round is over?
As part of a move action, during your turn.
Does the person keep his roll from round to round, or does he roll each round?
Normal rules for stealth, I believe they would keep their stealth roll until they end stealth, by either attacking or otherwise ending the stealth. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. They could, however, move while stealthed at half their speed or up to their full speed with -5 to the check. I am not sure if being attacked (and successfully struck) would bring you out of stealth (I would lean toward yes) but if you know you are seen you will probably either abandon your stealth or attempt a new stealth anyway, so it is a mute point.
How does the enemy of the Hide in Plain Site creature spot him during his turn, or the Hide in Plain Site creature's turn?
When HiPS is initiated it will trigger a free perception check (Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus). Beyond that if your enemy does not see you they would have to intentionally search for you (Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action).
A lot of people don’t like to say that someone with HiPS is akin to being invisible (in many cases better than invisible) but don’t downplay the (SU) part of it. Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
A lot of those same people don’t like to say that you are allowed to stay hidden while moving using the HiPS ability. But HiPS itself is not an action; it is a SU ability that allows you to use a skill in other than normal circumstances. The use of the skill is the action. Stealth does not require an action and is usually made as part of a move action.
The one thing I think you could catch your HiPS user with is that if they are “in melee range” and attempt to use Stealth via HiPS, it is part of a “move action” which more than likely would provoke an attack of opportunity, unless they avoid that by some other means (IE: Acrobatics). Yes SU abilities provoke no attack of opportunity, but as stated above, HiPS is not the action, Stealth is the action.
If anyone has insight as to the 3.5 errata and if it was official and if it will be brought into pathfinder, I would be interested to see it or a link to it in this thread, thank you. As pathfinder did not seem to introduce anything new to HiPS it would seem they do not intend to include any such errata.
If anyone has another opinion or sees the use of this SU and skill differently, I would also be interested to see other opinions.
EDIT: I am talking about the Shadowdancer/Assassin SU HiPS, there is a difference between this and other forms of the ability like that granted to the Ranger class or like the HiPS (EX) ability and any other versions. Careful reading of the specific version of HiPS you are dealing with is required.
A lot of stuff about HiPS.
I started my post before yours was updated, if I had seen yours first I might not have bothered writing my HiPS novel here. Oh well.
Actually after reading the Camouflage ability and the HiPS(EX) ability that Rangers receive I think their sneak would now work exactly the same way as the (SU) one. It would only work in the Ranger's Favored Terrain though. But the added benefit is that the (EX) ability cannot be disrupted by an Antimagic Field.
Does anyone have any insight on the new wording of the Shadowdancer’s HiPS ability; it Says “area of dim light” now as opposed to “some sort of shadow” like the 3.5 version and the Assassin version still says some shadow. Is there an official rule on what constitutes “dim light” or is that mostly for flavor, or perhaps a mistake? The HiPS for Assassin and Shadowdancer are otherwise identical. I am not sure if that would weaken the ability or make it stronger.
Also, there was a rule (perhaps in the 3.5 DMG under darkvision, I’m not sure) that stated HiPS did not work against darkvision. I imagine this would only matter in areas of darkness where they were using the darkvision, but the PRD description of darkvision says that “the presence of light does not spoil darkvision” so maybe a character could use his darkvision in low light conditions now. I am not sure if that was all versions of HiPS or just a specific type and I have not seen that rule anywhere in the PRD.
Thank you DM_Blake, and Shadowlord,
I appreciate your insights on this. You guys did great in answering my Q's. I shall use this in my game. Shadowlord, your right about dim light. I would like the answer to this too.
On the subject of Dim Light, it's covered on Page 172 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. Essentially there are 4 levels of light. Bright Light, Normal Light, Dim Light, and Darkness. Things like lanterns and torches emit normal light, and raise the light 'level' one step outside of that radius, to a maximum of Normal Light. I personally like the new rules on it.
Ah, I found the answer to my question about HiPS and darkvision.
In the Additional Rules section of PRD:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
It also says though that "any" creature in an area of dim light can make a stealth check to conceal itself.
If this is the case then the Shadowdancer's HiPS has been weakened. As there is a huge difference between "area of dim light" and "some shadow", the Assassins HiPS is clearly more powerful according to the wording in the PRD.
Can anyone look at their Hard Copy or PDF of the full PF Core Rulebook and tell me what the exact wording for the Shadowdancers HiPS is in there. In the Kobold Quarterly article about Shadowdancer and the upgrades it received in PF it says the Shadowdancer can use stealth as long as within 10' of "some sort of shadow" which is very different than an "area of dim light" which "any" creature can attempt to use stealth in.
Might be worth mentioning in some of the errata threads to see if it was intentional or a typo, because in 3.5 the Assassin and the Shadowdancer had the exact same wording in their abilities. Seems an under powering of a (SU) ability to only be able to attempt to hide within 10' of an area of dim light that any creature could hide in anyway. That being the case even the Ranger's version of HiPS is far better than the Shadowdancer's and the Ranger’s version is only (EX).
FYI, I'm copying directly from the PDF.
"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 8th level, an assassin can use
the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is
within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide
himself from view in the open without having anything
to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his
own shadow."
The text is different for the Shadowdancer.
"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth
skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10
feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself
from view in the open without anything to actually hide
behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."
Is it worth noting that there was a change in the stealth skill from 3.5 to PF? They changed the line about it being nearly impossible to bring impossible
3.5 SRD
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
PFRD
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
To my mind this means you can't attack and stealth, HiPS, in the same round even if the HiPS isn't a standard action (question over using SU).. I noted this back in beta, just didn't put up much of fuss. The only attack you are allowed to hide after is a sniping ranged attack, which takes a move action. I would not use the sniping rule with melee attacks as it seems at least clear to that the change in the stealth skill was clearly quite deliberate. No melee attacks in the same round you want to hide.
How much you want to bet the assasin is an oversight. Much like the gross oversights in the PF Cronicler. Almost totally non-functional or hideously broken that class depening on how you read it.
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@ Cydeth - Thank you for the clarification. I can't say I'm happy about it but that does indeed seem the way it was intended then.
@ Dorje Sylas - I had in fact noticed the change from "-20" to "impossible." Yet I would disagree that it means no hiding in the same round as an attack. I would argue that all that means is attacking makes you visible, and you cannot remain hidden during an attack. Normally, after an attack you would not be able to re-stealth, because your opponent is aware of you and the stealth skill says you can't hide while someone is observing you (without bluff and concealment close by). However, the HiPS(SU) ability states you can hide even if someone is looking right at you and even if you have nothing to hide behind, you effectively cloak yourself in shadows. Sniping is for someone who, without any supernatural/magical aid, wants to shoot someone (which would normally end their stealth) without that attack ever ending their stealth. If they attack and make their new stealth roll -20 they effectively never come out of stealth. Which is a different animal then attacking, ending stealth, then re-stealthing via a (SU) ability. These are two very different uses of stealth under two very different circumstances, IMO.
As for using a (SU) being a standard action. The (SU) entry says it is "usually" a standard action, not always. But there is not HiPS action, all HiPS does in it's description is add a new set of circumstances to when and where you can use your Stealth skill. Using stealth is the action, which outside of the sniping circumstance, is a non-action performed as part of a move action.
How much you want to bet the assasin is an oversight. Much like the gross oversights in the PF Cronicler. Almost totally non-functional or hideously broken that class depening on how you read it.
The Assassin's HiPS entry may indeed have been overlooked. If anything I would think that the Shadowdancer would have the stronger type of HiPS as it is their focus to hide and blend into shadow and even teleport through shadows, whereas the Assassin's main focus is slaying his enemy in ways they can't easily return from.
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Excuse me for not knowing this I am starting to get my way around Pathfinder and am new. What does PFRD mean and where do you find this. I believe people where I live are going to argue Hips and say you can attack and then hide. This PFRD seems to be the answer to these colorful debates.
Pathfinder RPG Reference Document, not to be confused with the Core Rulebook Hardcover/PDF.
It can be found at the following link:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
@ ShadowDax
I am not sure how different the PRD is from the Core Rulebook, I don’t have the Core Rulebook hardcover/pdf and probably won't buy it soon unless my DM says he is interested in converting our 3.5 game. Personally I like almost everything about the facelift that PF gave to 3.5 although I might vote to keep some things the 3.5 way if we convert.
HiPS is an almost endless source of argument and my current DM is the only person who as actually sat down and shown me how effective it can be and how powerful it is. Most people (to include myself at one point) nerf it until it is little better than the basic stealth skill, hardly worth 2 worthless points in dance and a three feat progression (Shadowdancer), or alternatively an 8 level dip away from your base class (Assassin). We have had a couple discussions on how HiPS works and why. I shall never forget the first time I ran into one of his NPCs who had HiPS, it was ugly.
You are right though, it will most likely be an argument, though I would try to keep it at the debate level. But as long as you track down all the rules and understand how they interact, proving your case should be much easier. Unfortunately there are so many rules involved at so many levels that it is hard for people to get on the same page with this. You really only have to convince one person though and that is your DM.
I am curious as to your personal take on the ability though, after the posts on this thread. And how that point of view might be different now than when you initially posted your questions.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Excuse me for not knowing this I am starting to get my way around Pathfinder and am new. What does PFRD mean and where do you find this? This PFRD seems to be the answer to these colorful debates I have in my home town.
otherwise known as PRD. PFRD is so strange and odd, I really hope people stop using it to refer to the PRD.
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Where does it say that you appear after you attack in the Core Rule Book? I can not find it anywhere in the Stealth skill, or the Invisibility section of the book. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document says, "This compendium is NOT the official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!" So, it kinda isn't as official as the Core Rule Book.
It seems you can attack and still be stealthy. The rules seem to not give a penalty when attacking, and then move and stealth again. My problem is that the rules don't give the character a penalty for attacking using Hips. Anything else is conjecture, however, the suggestions that have been made seem acceptable.
That is a minus twenty when the person attacks then a regular stealth check afterwords after a move using Hips. That way of course, the monster can ready to attack when the Hips character attacks, and there is a chance to see and attack the Hips character, but that is not a rule found in the books.
Hence, that is my problem and where the argument starts. A person can still argue that the minus twenty is not in the book and not applied.
Where does it say that you appear after you attack in the Core Rule Book? I can not find it anywhere in the Stealth skill,
Actually, yes it does. In fact, it says you lose your Stealth when you start to attack, not after:
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception
check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up
to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty.
When moving at a speed greater than half but less than
your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible
to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
Note the last sentence. It is "impossible" to use stealth while attacking. Which means that while you attack, you are not stealthed. Which means that if you were stealthed before you attack, the stealth goes away when you start to attack so that you are no longer stealthed during the attack.
It seems you can attack and still be stealthy.
Nope.
The rules seem to not give a penalty when attacking, and then move and stealth again.
Yes. See the Sniping section of the stealth rules. Once you attack, you are plainly visible. Stealthing again while plainly visible is normally impossible, but if you are sniping, you can try to stealth again as a move action at -20.
Hide in Plain Sight changes this.
My problem is that the rules don't give the character a penalty for attacking using Hips. Anything else is conjecture, however, the suggestions that have been made seem acceptable.
That is a minus twenty when the person attacks then a regular stealth check afterwords after a move using Hips.
No, not applicable. The -20 penalty is for normal people who cannot hide in plain sight. It represents the ability to pop out from behind the tree, fire off a quick shot, and duck behind the tree, all so fast that the enemy didn't see you. Well, he really does see you for the instant you attack, because no matter what, during that instant, you are not stealthed, but then you can immediately try to re-stealth as it were. If you're really stealthy and can beat their perception checks even when you take a -20, you can resume being stealthed.
For those who can Hide in Plain Sight, they don't have to worry about it. They now have a class ability that replaces the need for the sniping rule.
That way of course, the monster can ready to attack when the Hips character attacks,
Yes, they can do this regardless of whether the stealthy opponent has Hide in Plain Sight.
and there is a chance to see and attack the Hips character,
They automatically see you during your attack since as we learned, it's "impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging."
but that is not a rule found in the books.
Hence, that is my problem and where the argument starts. A person can still argue that the minus twenty is not in the book and not applied.
I'm not sure how, since it is in the book and it is fairly clear how it is applied.
A lot of stuff about HiPS.I started my post before yours was updated, if I had seen yours first I might not have bothered writing my HiPS novel here. Oh well.
No big deal, two novels are better than one...
I disagree with a couple of your points.
You mention being able to move around while stealth in such a way that you are suggesting just one the one stealth roll, made to enter stealth, should cover them for all their ordinary movement. At least that's how I took your description.
But I don't think this is true.
It may just be a semantics issue, but I see this quote in the book: "You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty."
I bolded the word "use" because I believe that is the crux of the matter. It is necessary to "use Stealth" when you move, ergo, to make a stealth check.
So, to my interpretation, each time you move, you make a new Stealth check which automatically grants a new opposed Perception check to anyone who might be interested in spotting you.
And the other point is your take on Attacks of Opportunity.
I do not believe that using Stealth provokes. You are misinterpreting the general rule when you say "move actions provoke AoOs." This is not true at all.
Only the specific move actions as listed in combat section actually provoke. Drawing a sword, for example, is a move action, but it doesn't provoke.
Note that the rulebook says there are two kinds of actions that provoke an AoO:
1. Moving (note that moving is different than taking a move action - move actions can be used to do things that are not "moving" at all.
2. Performing a distracting act. These "distracting acts" are always singled out in their own description as provoking. Many things seem to be a distracting act, but unless the rule for that specific act says it provokes an AoO, then it does not.
Table 8-2 on page 183 lists many actions, including many move actions, that don't provoke an AoO.
I believe that if the rules had intended for someone to provoke an AoO by the mere act of stealthing, it would say so under the Stealth rules.
Otherwise, the Move Action that the person is taking when he uses his Stealth ability will determine whether or not he provokes an AoO. For example, if he is moving out of a threatened space and uses Stealth while doing so, he will provoke because of his movement.
However, if he is "sniping" which requires a move action even though the sniper is not moving out of his square, then, since the sniping rules don't mention provoking an AoO, then sniping, or the move action to stealth after sniping, does not provoke.
Note this is normally not an issue since sniping must use a ranged attack which always provokes from adjacent enemies anyway. However, with Hide in Plain Sight, the same essential thing is happening. A stealthy guy is dropping stealth, making one attack (melee or ranged), then using his move action to regain stealth in the same square without actually moving or taking any other provoking actions, so he won't provoke.
Or at least that's my take on it, but I see no rules to override this take.
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Thank you DM_Blake for pointing out what page 166 has to say about appearing when you attack using stealth. I have ammunition now for those that say otherwise. Thank you for your patience my eye's are not very good this is why I need glasses.
So when using Hips you appear when attacking then the person can use stealth, Hips that is to end your turn disappearing. Now I can put my finger to the book to prove my point.
I thought the posts about not being able to attack, run, or charge was in the PRD or whatever it may be called, and not in the book. Thanks to you Shadowlord for your insights too.
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On this new information on page 166 about the rules for Stealth, and not being able to attack, run, or charge. This is how I see Spring Attack.
You move using the last Stealth check you used then attack. When you attack you appear using the rules for Stealth, page 166, as I said above. When you move away again you use a new Stealth check to use Hips. That is how I see it.
No big deal, two novels are better than one...
Quite true and I welcome it myself.
First off, I would like to thank you for pointing out these two areas which admittedly could have been explained far better in my post.
You mention being able to move around while stealth in such a way that you are suggesting just one the one stealth roll, made to enter stealth, should cover them for all their ordinary movement. At least that's how I took your description.
I did not mean to give this impression, unfortunately I overlooked this as it was not part of the point I was trying to make. I believe you are correct that any new movement would require a new stealth roll. For instance: In one turn a character uses stealth as part of his move action, that is all well and good that roll will cover his movement in this turn. In his next turn he can either, remain in place and not have to roll a new stealth check, or he can attempt to move, which I agree would require a new stealth check.
So, to my interpretation, each time you move, you make a new Stealth check which automatically grants a new opposed Perception check to anyone who might be interested in spotting you.
And I agree with this as well.
And the other point is your take on Attacks of Opportunity.
I do not believe that using Stealth provokes. You are misinterpreting the general rule when you say "move actions provoke AoOs." This is not true at all.
Another impression I did not mean to give and perhaps didn't explain fully enough. Stealth is clearly written as a non-action taken during a move action.
Otherwise, the Move Action that the person is taking when he uses his Stealth ability will determine whether or not he provokes an AoO. For example, if he is moving out of a threatened space and uses Stealth while doing so, he will provoke because of his movement.
This was the exact point that I was trying to make, thank you for clarifying. I don’t believe the act of using stealth itself would ever provoke AoO, but rather what I meant was that if stealth is used as part of a move action then the move action its self is where you must be careful. If your move is through a threatened square (or any other circumstance that would provoke AoO) then you will still provoke the attack. My point was that HiPS would not protect you from an AoO if your move action provoked one.
However, to further clarify, this is only relevant if you start your move un-stealth. I don't want anyone reading to get the impression that a stealth character can't move through melee range without provoking AoO. If you are already stealth, then you are virtually invisible, unless an opponent beats your stealth with a perception check.
This does bring another question to my mond though. If you use stealth as part of a move action at what point during the move action do you become stealth? Is it after the first 5’, after the first 10’, is it as soon as you take your first step?
Personally I would assume that you would probably travel 5’ or so before becoming stealth. I have seen no rules on the matter and truthfully have never thought of it before now, but it would play a large part in whether or not a person provoked an AoO. For instance: In my first round my rogue moves in against his opponent for an attack and uses stealth. The opponent is 20’ away from me, all is good, he fails perception and I enter his threat range virtually invisible. Next round, I attack which brings me out of stealth. Then I wish to retreat back into the shadows. I move away and use stealth. Well if I become stealth the instant I begin my move then I have nothing to fear, unless he makes his perception check. However, if I become only after 5’ then I must move out of his threatened square completely visible and vulnerable to AoO.
I hope I have explained that as well as I think I have, I would welcome people’s opinions on this but I don’t think there are specific rules governing this.
Excuse me for not knowing this I am starting to get my way around Pathfinder and am new. What does PFRD mean and where do you find this? This PFRD seems to be the answer to these colorful debates I have in my home town.otherwise known as PRD. PFRD is so strange and odd, I really hope people stop using it to refer to the PRD.
I am guilty of this myself in a few of my posts but I must remember Pathfinder is one word and therefore "PRD" is correct, not "PFRD."
ShadowDax wrote:
On this new information on page 166 about the rules for Stealth, and not being able to attack, run, or charge. This is how I see Spring Attack.
Close but I would attempt to clarify a few things.
You move using the last Stealth check you used then attack.
Not exactly; if you use stealth at the beginning of your turn, during your move to close distance with your opponent then yes, you use your last roll (since it was in fact made for your current move action") however, if you used stealth in a previous round, then your new move to close distance to your opponent will require a new stealth roll and initiate a new perception check on the part of your opponent.
When you attack you appear using the rules for Stealth, page 166, as I said above.
You are absolutely correct.
When you move away again you use a new Stealth check to use Hips. That is how I see it.
Yes, but remember, you can only do this if you have the Spring Attack feat. Normally you would be limited to only one move action in your turn and therefore only one stealth roll. However, Spring Attack changes that and now you can use stealth to cover your move to close distance, attack becoming momentarily visible, and use stealth again as you retreat.
NOTE: None of my previous examples from previous posts took into consideration that a character had Spring Attack. This is a feat that you can get and it will make a character with HiPS infinitely more dangerous and difficult to pinpoint & target.
@ Altaïr Ibn al-Hassan
You are quite able to move, attack, and move again all while gaining the benefit of Stealth while performing melee combat maneuvers against foes.
I am just seeking clarification. Are you implying that you believe a character with HiPS and Spring Attack could “move, attack and move again” and remain stealth the “entire” time? Because as stated several times, it is impossible to use stealth while attacking . . .
Many of you seem to overlook the fact that the very argument that is being made is negated by a single feat: Spring Attack.
That’s not at all the case. The argument Dorje Sylas was making was that it was his understanding/opinion that a single attack and a single stealth in the same turn were impossible. He also questioned whether a (SU) could be used as part of a move action. And he stated the only attack you can make and then return to stealth from is a sniping one which you cannot do in melee. None of these situations is answered in any way, simply by gaining the feat Spring Attack.
Altaïr Ibn al-Hassan this next part is not directed at you, however, just so no one reading this gets the impression I agree with Djore Sylas’ above stated stance I will address it again.
Yes, it is “impossible” use stealth “while attacking” however, the rule says nothing nor implies anything about using stealth “before or after” attacking. The reason a normal rogue can’t use stealth “before” an attack is that generally speaking if you are closing distance to someone in order to attack them you don’t have cover or concealment and so can’t use stealth. The reason a normal rogue can’t use stealth “after” an attack is that once again you don’t have cover or concealment but what is more, you at this point are being observed. The only exception in the basic use of the stealth skill is for sniping which is a completely different use of the skill and has no place in melee. HiPS however is a (SU) ability that adds three circumstances to your basic use of the stealth skill. 1) You can use stealth now even while being observed. 2) You can use stealth now any time within 10’ of an area of dim light. 3) You can use stealth even if you have nothing to hide behind. So as you can see the addition of HiPS negates all three circumstances that would prevent a normal rogue from using the basic stealth skill “before or after” an attack.
Yes using a (SU) is “normally” a standard action. However you never use HiPS, you only ever use Stealth. HiPS simply lets you apply a new set of circumstances to when and where you may use the Stealth skill. Using Stealth is a non-action as part of a move action. The HiPS ability even says exactly that. Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Sniping is for sniping, it is not melee and it cannot be applied in any way to melee. If you apply sniping rules to your HiPS user while he is making melee attacks you are IMO wrong. Sniping rules are for sniping, which is a much different circumstance. Basic EX: (without Spring Attack) When you are attacking in melee using HiPS you either 1) move in while stealth and attack, brining you out of stealth, or 2) Attack and then move away while using stealth. (With Spring Attack) You move in under cover of stealth, attack ending stealth, and then move away again using stealth. This is infinitely different than a character who is sniping. Sniping means you are more than 10’ away from the target, not moving at all, and attempting to maintain cover/stealth while sniping. A sniper if he is seen is a dead sniper, so, a sniper can attempt to “never” be seen, he does this by the sniping rules. These rules are a special circumstance created solely for the purpose of sniping. If he begins with cover and makes the stealth check after his attack at a -20, he can maintain your obscured location IE: never leave his stealth position. If he lost stealth, even for a second, then sniping is useless, because the enemy, having seen him for a moment and then seen him disappear again, can run over to where he saw the sniper disappear. This would negate the sniper’s cover, and therefore he would no longer be able to remain in stealth. You can claim, "Well maybe the target did see the sniper but he doesn’t know if the sniper moved after he hid." Well since in the sniping rules it says that making this check is a move action, you would be wrong, the sniper “can’t move” after sniping because the second stealth roll was made as a move action. This means if he was seen at all, he can’t keep cover. So I would say that with sniping, you are never seen at all. Maintaining your obscured location is IMO never being seen at all, which is a HUGE difference.
Spring Attack is the ONLY way a person would be able to move, attack from hiding with a melee weapon and then return to stealth by following a simple logical progression.
I agree with you completely on this point. However not “every” character with HiPS is going to get Spring Attack, and HiPS still works perfectly well without it.
1) Stealth as part of a Move, and then attack.
2) Attack and then stealth as part of a move action.
I agree that it is IMPOSSIBLE TO USE STEALTH WHILE ATTACKING. Why do I agree with you? Because it is NOT A MOVE ACTION and therefore you CANNOT utilize stealth.
This seems to answer my first question for you. It was just confusing how you wrote it above.
Or for all those sad Rogue and Assassin types have you all FORGOTTEN about Spring Attack?
I can’t speak for DM_Blake but I never "forgot" about Spring Attack and am well aware of the advantage it can give a character with HiPS. It simply wasn’t part of the original question from the poster and so, to keep things simple, I did not include it. Yes Spring Attack effects and enhances your HiPS ability, but you can use the ability, and more importantly understand the rules for HiPS, just fine without including Spring Attack.
There are two ways to carry out this type of movement, and unfortunately I subscribe to the harsher version (the first) with players who attempt it (STEALTH, MOVE, ATTACK, MOVE and STEALTH) and its penalties because it makes more sense with respect to penalties and difficulty of the action taken.
This is where I start to really disagree with you, I will explain why.
The first situation requires that you be under the effects of STEALTH from the previous turn before you utilize your Spring Attack. You MOVE towards the target, ATTACK which breaks your stealth and then MOVE once again while utilizing the Sniping Rule for returning to STEALTH after an attack. Even though it is ranged it is the SAME concept, you attacked and are trying to STEALTH again (requires Hide in Plain Sight or some form of cover or concealment).
It is not the same concept, at all, as sniping. With HiPS and Spring Attack you can move/Stealth, attack dropping Stealth, and move away/Stealth. With Sniping, you don’t move at all and are trying to avoid being seen completely, which is where the -20 comes into play. You have no magical (SU) ability to hide yourself with. If you are seen a foe can run over to your position and negate your cover, which means you can’t hide from him anymore. I liked DM_Blake’s example of popping out from behind a tree and then popping back, however, I believe that the intent of the roll is that if you make your roll at a -20 and no one makes the perception check, then you popped out at the exact moment that no one was looking at you, and popped back before they saw where the arrow came from (or similar scenario). If they had seen you at all, even for a second, they could simply run over to the tree you disappeared behind and negate your cover. Even if you successfully hid and they didn't make the perception check, sniping is a basic skill and everyone knows that if you were sniping from a position you can’t leave that position. So, even though the sniper disappeared they still saw you for a split second and know right where you are. This is why it is my opinion that a better description of the Sniping rules is to say that: if your opponent doesn't make the Perception check after your attack, that opponent never saw you leave cover at all. Not to say that you were stealth the whole time but rather that they never saw you at all for that split second you became visible. I believe my opinion is supported by the wording used in the Sniping rules, where it says You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to "maintain" your obscured location.
The second situation assumes you are NOT under the effects of STEALTH before utilizing Spring Attack. You MOVE towards your target, ATTACK and then MOVE once again and then activate the STEALTH ability incurring the Perception check. This functions exactly the same as using regular STEALTH with the -5 penalty with the only problem being that you must find cover or have concealment to do it (unless you have Hide in Plain Sight).
I don’t understand how you apply a -5 penalty here but not in your situation above. The -5 has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you are in Stealth before your attack. It has to do with how far you moved in your turn. Secondly there is no way you can do this without HiPS. If you are not under Stealth, then you attack and move off to hide behind cover, the enemy still knows where you went. Unless you use a Bluff check to distract your opponent you cannot hide while being observed without HiPS. It would be the equivalent of walking up to someone punching them in the face and then running off to hide behind a tree with them watching you in disbelief the entire time, trying to figure out why you are so stupid. I still saw where you ran to and I will catch you and make you sorry you punched me. Without either HiPS or a Bluff check and some kind of cover/concealment this is absolutely impossible.
There is a third situation which assumes you are NOT under the effects of STEALTH before utilizing Spring attack. You MOVE towards your target, STEALTH and then ATTACK (this requires Hide in Plain Sight unless you start from Cover or have Concealment) and then MOVE once again attempting to STEALTH. This version of the skill use is more difficult because you must first STEALTH at a -5 penalty (giving the first Perception check), MOVE and then ATTACK followed by another MOVE and STEALTH at a -20 penalty (because you are attempting to attack from STEALTH and return to STEALTH as the ranged attack) and providing a second Perception check.
I have a few things here:
1) This is absolutely impossible to accomplish for anyone who doesn’t have HiPS, unless they specifically have the cover granted by dim light or darkness (or similar effect). Cover would not allow someone to do this; as soon as they left their cover they become visible. And after their attack they would not be able to return to cover or concealment without first distracting their opponent with Bluff.
2) With HiPS this is entirely possible to do without the penalties you are talking about. The -5 penalty has solely to do with the distance you move while using Stealth. So if you don’t move more than half your speed you don’t take -5. The -20 you are speaking of is ONLY applicable for sniping which as I demonstrated above is not in any way, shape, or form, what you are doing in this scenario. There is no "as the ranged attack" about it, this is melee with someone who has HiPS(SU), NOT SNIPING .
3) Furthermore if your Rogue took the Fast Stealth (EX) Rogue Talent you could move your full speed while performing this scenario with no penalty at all. There are other ways to increase your speed as well.
As an aside I will admit the following: It is almost impossible to perform the third situation with a player character with a 12 level cap in place. The only system in which I successfully utilized this combination WITHOUT magical assistance was in Living Arcanis (I got my Hide and Move Silently up to +62 at 17th level). You can do this with magic, but it must be POWERFUL and since Improved Invisibility is near the top of the spell list now I don't see many people prepping it in order to throw it on a sneak attack type character to offset the -20. Any player who attempts the third version of the movement with Spring Attack deserves the beating that will ensue when the fail the second check and are surrounded in melee.
I have several things here too:
1) No one said anything about levels or level caps. And no since the -20 does not apply, it would not be nearly impossible at all, it would depend entirely upon your characters Stealth skill vs. the opponents Perception skill. SNIPING , however, would indeed be nearly impossible without either a high level character or magical augmentation of some kind.
2) As demonstrated in my argument above, the Sniping rules are “only” for sniping and therefore the -20 does not apply to HiPS melee combat, or even HiPS ranged combat outside the specific circumstance of sniping. There is no room in the wording of the rules to ever suggest that the Sniping rules could possibly apply to anything outside sniping, it explicitly states the rules are for one circumstance and only that one circumstance. Nor does it say anywhere in HiPS descriptions that HiPS allows you to use the Sniping rules for melee combat. The HiPS description says absolutely nothing about the Sniping rules so if you are linking the two than it is by your own fabrication that you do so and not by anything that is actually written.
3) I have no idea what Living Arcanis is , other than a system of organized play, but a +62 to any skill at lvl 17 “without magical assistance” seems like either an exaggeration or a gross abuse/disregard for the rules as the most you could possibly have ranks wise in 3.5 would be 20 and the most you could have in PF would be 17, so unless you had a +42/+45 Dex mod I don’t see how this is possible. By the way, you would need roughly a 94/100 on your Dex to get a mod of +42/+45. If you indeed did this, without magic, and without gross abuse/disregard for the rules of the game, I am EXTREMELY interested in how you did it. Perhaps it is a Living Arcanis only trick. Even additional feats to buff the skill only get you a max of +6 in PF and only got you in general +2 in 3.5.
4) There would be no beating after your third scenario for the individual with HiPS unless their opponents individually beat his Stealth check (which would never be made with a -20) with Perception checks of their own. Even if a character with HiPS was attempting to snipe they would not have to use the Sniping rules set forth in the basic Stealth skill. They would attack, then move/stealth.
I enjoyed this conversation too.
For sniping do not forget the interaction of range penalties to sight. Sniping within 30 ft of your target us perhaps way to close for a normal lower-level character. Get out to the limit on the first or second range increment of a crossbow or bow and you've already made up most of your loss.
I guess I stand corrected, however it was never impossible to attack/run/charge in 3.5 and either stay hidden or remain hidden provied you had cover or concealment. It is not a Move Action that is needed, just simple movement. A full round action that does not contain an attack, or any of the other two now impossible acts, can be used with stealth Provided you move just a little bit.
I guess a new question what is defined as movment, sufficent to uses the stealh skill. Can I use HiPS or be blurred and use the Heal skill to Treat a Deadly Wound (1 hour) while using Stealth?
For sniping do not forget the interaction of range penalties to sight. Sniping within 30 ft of your target us perhaps way to close for a normal lower-level character. Get out to the limit on the first or second range increment of a crossbow or bow and you've already made up most of your loss.
Thank you I had in fact overlooked this point. Obviously the -20 mechanic is there to balance the fact that you may quite possibly be 100+ feet away from the target and near impossible to spot anyway.
I guess I stand corrected, however it was never impossible to attack/run/charge in 3.5 and either stay hidden or remain hidden provied you had cover or concealment. It is not a Move Action that is needed, just simple movement. A full round action that does not contain an attack, or any of the other two now impossible acts, can be used with stealth Provided you move just a little bit.
I don't currently have access to any of my 3.5 books or the SRD so I am only currently using what I can find in the PRD so I am not sure about the 3.5 rules here but I believe any time you attack you always come out of stealth. As for your other statement here, no, it is not a move action, it is a non-action taken as part of a move action.
I guess a new question what is defined as movment, sufficent to uses the stealh skill. Can I use HiPS or be blurred and use the Heal skill to Treat a Deadly Wound (1 hour) while using Stealth?
I would have to the use of Heal that is a Standard Action would be easy while under stealth with HiPS, I am not so sure about treating a deadly wound, it would not be a combat application obviously since it is measured in hours instead of action/turn/round.
@ Altaïr Ibn al-Hassan
I didn't mean to suggest that you STAY in Stealth when you attack but that up-until you ATTACK you are in Stealth as the previous posts seemed to be suggesting that you could not gain the benefits of Stealth when you attacked (flat-footed, sneak attack, etc.) in the game according to the rules.
Fair enough, I thought that was the case but wanted to be sure.
it was mentioned because the penalty that you take when sniping (-20) is so devastating to your Stealth check that characters (without the bonus of magical aid or full cover) will be caught by another opponent's Perception check.
Yes you are right, but again, you are not sniping. This is a Supernatural Ability we are talking about not your average rogue tying to pick someone off without being seen. And as stated by Dorje Sylas above the further you are away from your target the more of a bonus you have to your stealth so in reality sniping isn’t that hard as long as you do it from a distance.
One of the problems with Spring Attack is that you "technically" have a rule breaking feat being able to MOVE, ATTACK and MOVE again. It allows for two separate Stealth Checks because there was an original move action (where you can stealth), the attack which breaks it, and then another move (where you have the opportunity to return to stealth). I am a great believer in being able to do the epic, but I feel if you attempt the above you should take the penalty of the sniping rules to your Stealth as it is essentially what you did.
I disagree, it is not a rule breaking feat; it is no different than a feat that allows you an extra attack, or a feat that allows you to cast two spells in one turn. All it does is modify the way you interact with the rules as they normally would apply.
You say you believe in doing the epic but you are applying the penalty a mundane skill user would receive for sniping to a completely separate use of the skill being used by a character with Supernatural Abilities which in the very definition says is magical in nature. I am a believer in knowing the rules and being able to show how they apply and interact with each other. What you are doing here is applying the penalty for one type of skill use/attack under one type of circumstance to a completely different type of skill use/attack under a completely different set of circumstances; and not because rules imply that you should do so but because you “feel” it should be hard to do what is being done. And you have no rules or references to suggest this should be the way it is used. Nowhere, in any book does it say “the rules for sniping are to be used by characters with HiPS.” Nowhere does it say “HiPS allows you to use the rules for sniping to do . . .” Nowhere does it say “Spring Attack when utilized with HiPS allows you to use the rules for sniping to do . . .” The two situations are not only UNRELATED they are absolutely UNCOMPATIBLE mechanics. The rules are very explicit actually and if you don’t add anything to them they are very easy to understand. We are combining three things: Stealth, HiPS, and Spring Attack.
Stealth allows a character to avoid being seen/heard through use of cover/concealment and moving silently. Action: is a non-action as part of a move action, however, it takes up a move action under the sniping rules.
By your own standards if you Stealth/move, Attack, Stealth/move, you are breaking your own rules. There is no “essentially” about sniping, you are either sniping or you are not. You say sniping what you are doing, but you “CANNOT” take a move action in ANY way while sniping because the stealth check IS your move action, Spring Attack (if we pretend for a moment that it would apply to ranged attacks) would not change this at all, a character with Spring Attack still CAN’T move while sniping because his ENTIRE MOVE ACTION is used by his Stealth check to MAINTAIN stealth. So, not only are you applying a skill mechanic in an illegitimate situation, you are actually applying it in such a way that you are breaking the very rules you claim apply to the situation. Furthermore you are breaking your own rules twice in the same turn because you are taking not one but two illegal movements, that is if you want to apply the sniping rule.
Let’s pretend, however, that you are not breaking your own rules and I will continue with the other two elements. For the purposes of this particular debate I will use the Shadowdancer as my model for HiPS.
HiPS as stated in the Shadowdancer description allows you to use the stealth skill even while being observed, as long as you are within 10’ of an area of dim light, even without anything to hide behind.
Nowhere in this description is there anything that would point to the use of the sniping rule. It states you can use stealth, if the writer intended you to specifically use the sniping portion of the skill it would say “allows you to utilize the rules for sniping.” But it doesn’t it says you can use the stealth skill. So, if you simply apply the circumstances of the HiPS ability to the circumstances of the stealth skill you have the normal stealth skill plus now as long as you are within 10’ of an area of dim light, you no longer have to worry about being observed because you can hide even while being observed, you no longer have to worry about finding cover, because you can hide without having anything to actually hide behind. Could you use the sniping rules as a character with HiPS, sure you could, it is your choice to do that and it would be a poor choice. However, since HiPS allows you to use Stealth, and the sniping rules are part of Stealth, I suppose you could if you took the -20 penalty and sacrificed your move to make a stealth check under the sniping rules. I think you would be far better off just attacking and then Stealth/moving, as this is just as valid a use of the Sealth skill and STEALTH is what you are using, not the sniping sub-rules within stealth.
It sounds like you are completely disregarding the magical nature of his supernatural tie to darkness. You describe sounds like nothing more than a normal scrub jumping out of the shadows, hitting their target, and then running off again to try and hide in the shadows, which he more than likely will fail at. I envision a master of stealth and darkness, closing distance under cover of stealth and the protective shadows he wraps around himself, Attacking, and then immediately cloaking himself back in the shadows that he shed for his attack, as he moves away. You seem to ignore the fact that the sniping rules take into consideration that you may be over 100’ away from your target and get all the bonuses to Stealth that apply while you are sniping. And this character has a Supernatural power that is magical, he is not your run of the mill thug ducking and weaving behind obstacles and into cover/concealment to keep from being seen.
Spring Attack allows you to move your speed, make a single attack, without an AoO from the target. In addition you may split your movement speed before and after your attack.
Again absolutely nothing here about using sniping rules. In fact, the inclusion of sniping rules is a blatant disregard for both the sniping rules and the Spring Attack rules. Sniping is ONLY EVER for ranged attacks, and Spring Attack is ONLY EVER applicable to a melee attack.
So if you add this you have: Stealth + HiPS + Spring Attack. All stealth does is let you use a non-action as part of a move action to avoid detection under certain circumstances. Add HiPS which allows you to use Stealth under two new circumstances as long as you are within 10’ of dim light. Add Spring Attack which allows you to split your movement before and after your attack.
There is nothing in that equation that equals applying Sniping rules to a melee attack (which is explicitly impossible) when using Spring Attack to take two movements (which is also explicitly impossible with sniping). Sniping does not equal Stealth. Sniping is a subset of rules under Stealth and you are either using it or not, there is no middle ground. So if you are going to use it then USE IT, but that means you are attacking from range and you cannot move from your position. To use the combination of melee attack with stealth and HiPS at a -20 penalty because it is kinda like making a sniping attack is fabricating. And there is nothing about the Stealth/move, attack, Stealth/move that is kinda like a sniper attack anyway, they are utterly different.
And upon reading the Spring Attack feat again and more closely I actually don’t think it’s possible to Stealth/move, Attack, Stealth/move, even with HiPS and Spring Attack. I say this because Spring Attack does not in fact give you two move actions; it simply allows you to split your one move action.
Think about it, I hide in plain sight, stab you and then disappear again and I, the one who was attacked, am not going to notice that? It is the idea that even though you can hide you BROUGHT attention to yourself with the attack.
You are absolutely going to notice me. You are going to see me (the Shadowdancer) appear out of the shadows and sneak attack you. Then you are going to watch in disbelief and terror as I disappear just as quickly into the shadows from which I emerged. And unless you have a ridiculously high Perception check there is nothing you can do about it because you can bet my Stealth check will be high. Yes, I brought attention to myself and normally that would make it impossible for me to re-enter stealth because I am being observed. But you are disregarding two major things. The HiPS ability explicitly states I CAN hide while being observed and it is a SU ability which by definition is MAGICAL IN NATURE. It even ceases to work in an Antimagic Field so as you can see it’s not just me popping out of the darkness, punching you and then trying to run away and hide again; ITS MAGIC. What it absolutely does not say is that I can hide while observed at a -20 penalty, no it says I can hide while being observed, no if’s, and’s, or but’s that is the end of the description, no extenuating circumstances: I CAN HIDE WHILE BEING OBSERVED. Whether or not I hide with one movement or two is absolutely irrelevant because using stealth is a non-action taken as part of a move action, so, if I can move I can stealth with no penalty. The rules for sniping allow for exactly ZERO movement and apply to exactly ZERO melee attacks. So, if you are applying the sniping rule you are fabricating a completely new rule set of your own design, where sniping can now be done as part of a move action and now apply to melee attacks.
As to not doing it with Hide in Plain Sight you have to have certain things in place, you can do it, but it is hard.
I never said it was impossible; I said it was impossible without certain circumstances which you did not thoroughly explain in your post. It is certainly not relevant in this thread because it has nothing to do with HiPS.
First off you must have some form of concealment or cover to attempt to hide if you do not have Hide in Plain Sight (solve this with Blur or Displacement to gain concealment).
I am well aware that with concealment this is in fact possible, depending on a Bluff check; you still need a distraction because you are still being observed. See below for more detail.
Or if the battlefield has structures that provide cover as long as you started movement from cover and end movement in cover you can attempt the Stealth Checks (this is a rare opportunity but I would make use of it any chance I got).
This I have not heard of. In fact, (without concealment) it was my impression that the moment you left cover, you become plainly visible. I would very much like to see these rules, if you could point me to the book and page of a WoTC or PF publishing I would appreciate it. The example you give sounds like the equivalent of running out from behind one rock/tree, attacking your opponent, and then running back behind another rock/tree. But you must understand that for the entire time in between points of cover you are being observed, and if you are observed you cannot re-stealth, unless you Bluff or have HiPS, even if you have concealment or cover. It explicitly states in the stealth skill that if you are being observed you cannot use stealth, the exception is if you distract an opponent with a bluff check you can move for cover and once under cover attempt a stealth check. I cannot find a specific rule on the action required to make a Bluff check as a diversion to use the Stealth skill but in the description of Bluff it is either a full round action or a standard action if you use a feint. So without being pointed to the specific rules you are referring to I will have to disagree with you as to this being possible.
If the judge rules that it is only the -5 penalty instead of a -20 on the second move then I have no problem with it. I enjoy flexibility with Judges and based on their preferences (within certain parameters) I usually don't mind their quirks or personal preferences towards rulings as long as they are not way out in left field (like the judge who told us he had the ability to "darken the sun" according to the power; he was later corrected by campaign staff and asked not to judge for them anymore).
By your own admission their judgments can be flawed.
By magical assistance I mean no Invisibility/Greater Invis OR spells of any nature. I had +25 (skill points and Dex), my gear was not all that special either, feats my Greater Skill focus provided +15 to the check, my armor provided +15 (greater shadow) and a certificate for a Cadican cloak that provided another +10 for +65 overall and my armor provided a -3 penalty because it was an exotic armor. You want to drop invisibility on my and it can get worse kicking it up to +82.
Fair enough, I appreciate the clarification of “magical aid.”
I'm fairly certain spring attack allows a shadowdancer to HiPS with no penalties. I'm curious however if he can just stand adjacent to his enemy, make a single attack, not full attack, and use his move action to hide, possibly in his opponent's shadow.. If the opponent moves away he could take an AoO which would make him observed again, no stealth til next round.
It is not a move action or part of a move action to stealth. It is normally but not always part of movement. The only use of stealth that requires a move action is sniping. Case example: use a full attack action and then use stealth on the 5 foot step, HiPS. The 5 foot step is movement and comes after the attack.
.... Yes, you can stay hidden while attacking in 3.5 with a -20 to your hided check. That was the change I've been gripping about all this time. Actually did kind of make the sniping rule pointless as you could keep your hide while attacking without a move action.
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Bad idea for the Shadow Dancer or even Ranger to not move or shift locations. As you don't maintain stealth on the attack you kind of 'blip' into visabilty for a moment. If you don't actully move and just stay put they will have an easier time guessing the square your in. Still may miss but it doesn't help your chances.
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I guess a new question what is defined as movment, sufficent to uses the stealh skill. 5 foot step :D
I'm not 100% convinced a 5-foot step would do it. Yes, physically you are moving, but the stealth action is a non-action as part of a movement and the 5-foot step in combat rules is not concidered a movement, it is also a NO Action or free action. I don't think you can make a free-action check as part of another free-action. I could be entirely wrong here. Obviously you could argue that it IS a movement, but according the rules it's not a movement it is a free action, not sure.
I could sooo see a Roguish type (assassin, shadowdancer-dipped rogue, etc) stealth their way in adjacent to a target and end their turn stealthed, maybe use the bluff check distraction technique to make them think somebody snuck up on the opposite side of them (throw a rock, something, think Obi-wan's trick getting past the storm troopers in Star Wars IV, a new hope)
Could someone pleas copy/paste or link the rule for what action a distraction use of the Bluff skill is, I looked for it and could not find it. I would probably have more luck in my library of 3.5 stuff but I don't have access to it right now.
Next turn, after they attack the wrong square, open up a full attack (Does sneak attack count on all blows from a full attack used on a flatfooted - by having been hidden - foe, or is it only the first?) and follow with a 5 foot step, stealthing as you fade into the darkness. Now, the target has 3 possible squares you may have 5 foot stepped into, and even if he picks the right square he has to deal with a 50% misschance.
I don't think you would even have to go through the trouble of distracting him, unless he was walking around and you just wanted him to stop so you could get the full attack. Unfortunately I see a couple things wrong with the scenario, which could just be me. First, if you initiated combat from a hidden location or whatever, it will be a surprise round, so you will only get a move action or a standard action (perhaps this is why the distraction, so the opponent is the one to initiate combat, hence no surprise round). Yes, every attack that your opponent is flat footed for adds SA damage. However, the opponent would only be flat footed for the surprise round. Then combat would begin, at that point it depends on initiative, if you go first you get a full attack with him flat footed, SA heaven. If he goes first then you don't. Then you could hide again and set up another sneak attack but even if you got another full attack SA damage would only add to the first attack, which would count as if you were an invisible attacker, after the first attack you become visible and the opponent wouldn't be flat footed.
This I have not heard of. In fact, (without concealment) it was my impression that the moment you left cover, you become plainly visible. I would very much like to see these rules, if you could point me to the book and page of a WoTC or PF publishing I would appreciate it.
Or if the battlefield has structures that provide cover as long as you started movement from cover and end movement in cover you can attempt the Stealth Checks (this is a rare opportunity but I would make use of it any chance I got).Actually, check the Complete Adventurer rules on the hide skill. It's got a listed use of crossing uncoverred area. I don't remember the exact rules off-hand, it wasn't super easy but for a focused sneak it wasn't unreasonably hard either.
Thank you. Like I said I don't have access to my books right now but I appreciate it. I know the Complete books often came out with new skill uses but they usually didn't contradict the original skill description too badly that I can recall. I mention this because depending on how the skill use is worded it would be a blatant contradiction, due to the fact that in Stealth it says If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. This may have been a new change from 3.5 however.
If it is in the Complete Adventurer I would concede the point but I would have to read closely what exactly it allows you to do and what circumstances are needed to accomplish it. I wouldn't think something like this would be easy.
Again, however, thank you.
I'm fairly certain spring attack allows a shadowdancer to HiPS with no penalties. I'm curious however if he can just stand adjacent to his enemy, make a single attack, not full attack, and use his move action to hide, possibly in his opponent's shadow.. If the opponent moves away he could take an AoO which would make him observed again, no stealth til next round.
I am 100% sure Spring Attack does not affect any penalties you might get for using Stealth + HiPS (except that you would be more inclined to move your full speed taking a -5 penalty as per the Stealth skill, unless you had the Fast Sneak Rogue Talent or some such). I admit, I could be wrong but I have never seen rules to contradict my thinking.
NOTE: However, as stated in a previous post debating Spring Attack, I am doubtful now that it would allow you to even use two Stealth attempts because Spring Attack doesn't give you two movements; it merely allows you to split your single movement into two. If Stealth is a non-action as part of a movement then perhaps you would be able to use it during both movements, since it is a non-action and requires no effort?
Your scenario IMO is absolutely possible. EX: If your assassin snuck up behind a guard, under cover of HiPS, and stood ready to pounce. Next round he could easily make a standard action attack, then take a 5-foot step (if you agree that is legal) and use stealth, the 5-foot step could be to another square adjacent to the opponent. In reality you don’t even need a 5-foot step. Make your attack, then take your move action, stalk a circle around your opponent (using acrobatics not to provoke AoO) while seemingly disappearing before his eyes as you wrap yourself in your enemy's own shadow (if you are an Assassin, if you are Shadowdancer you need an area of dim light now).
Of course the rounds needed and actions needed to perform this all depend on whether you think HiPS can be used as part of a 5-foot step which is a non-action also. Also whether or not you think HiPS would allow you to use Stealth on "both" portions of your movement with Spring Attack. I'm just not 100% sure in my mind how these rules would work yet, I am definitely open to suggestions/opinions, but please show by the rules how this works.
It is not a move action or part of a move action to stealth. It is normally but not always part of movement.
I stand corrected on this point and admit I misinterpreted that word. Thank you for pointing that out to me. I shall have to study what constitutes a "movement."
The only use of stealth that requires a move action is sniping.
Agreed.
Case example: use a full attack action and then use stealth on the 5 foot step, hips. The 5 foot step is movement and comes after the attack.
My question is does a 5-foot step count as a "movement" for the purposes of using Stealth. I ask because "movement" as stated in the Stealth description doesn’t seem to have a rock solid definition (that I have yet seen) but is rather a lose term used to describe any of a number of things, namely any physical movement of your character, which is not necessarily the same as a move action. The 5-foot step is often referred to as a movement. I am starting to think it would work. Can anyone site their 3.5 PHB and tell me weather the action for Stealth under 3.5 was a Non-Action as part of a move action or if it was the same as PF and said a non-action as part of a movement?
Many Move Actions are not movements, but there are a host of new things that could be used to become stealth if you use the word movement. Again thank you for pointing this out.
.... Yes, you can stay hidden while attacking in 3.5 with a -20 to your hided check. That was the change i've been gripping about all this time. Actually did kind of make the sniping rule pointless as you could keep your hide while attacking without a move action.
I really want to re-read the stealth skill in my 3.5 PHB now; there is a lot of room for abuse if that is the case. I am not surprised they changed it.
As for MOVEMENTS I found this in regards to 5-foot steps:
TAKE 5-FOOT STEP:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
I bolded the relevant part because this does imply that a 5-foot step is indeed a "movement" and therefore suitable for using Stealth. So, a 5-foot step is in fact a movement that can be taken as a free action.
Thank you guys, I kinda answered a lot of my own questions and doubts while writing this post, but I probably would not have noticed this had you not pointed it out to me. I'm still not sure about the Spring Attack # of movements issue though.
Actually, check the Complete Adventurer rules on the hide skill. It's got a listed use of crossing uncoverred area. I don't remember the exact rules off-hand, it wasn't super easy but for a focused sneak it wasn't unreasonably hard either.
Another thought I had about this was it may be entirely possible to cross from one point of cover to another using this skill use and not be seen. But can you do it in conjunction with an attack? Just a thought, I will have to read it.
I think I am sold on HiPS/Stealth working twice in the same round if you have Spring Attack again. Spring Attack does not give you two Move Actions but it does seem to give you two moves and since, as Dorje Sylas pointed out, it is in fact used as part of a movement this does seem to fit within the requirements of Stealth.
REPLY
Thank you Kyrt-ryder, that is helpful. As you say, it would most certainly work to get an initial sneak attack, but you could not use Spring Attack to retreat back to a hidden position as the target is not observing you. I like this skill use a lot actually. Thanks again.
For your second point: What you could do is use the above application of Stealth. (Not needed if you have HiPS though. Unless you don’t meet the conditions for using HiPS). Sneak up on someone and get a surprise attack with SA damage, then if you go before them in the first round of combat you get your full attack on them with full SA because they would still be flat-footed to you. Not a good day for your enemy.
That house rule feat you are describing sounds very ugly. But you could do basically the same thing with a scroll of Greater Invisibility and Use Magic Device, or a potion of Greater Invisibility.
I was reading over my reply to Altaïr Ibn al-Hassan and a couple things keep bothering me so I am going to correct/clarify them.
NOTE TO SELF: Triple read things before posting when extremely tired.
IN THE 3RD SUBJECT, 2ND PARAGRAPH; IN THE SENTENCE:
The two situations are not only UNRELATED they are absolutely UNCOMPATIBLE mechanics.
UNCOMPATIBLE = INCOMPATIBLE
IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH:
Stealth allows a character to avoid being seen/heard through use of cover/concealment and moving silently. Action: is a non-action as part of a move action, however, it takes up a move action under the sniping rules.
By your own standards if you Stealth/move, Attack, Stealth/move, you are breaking your own rules. There is no “essentially” about sniping, you are either sniping or you are not. You say sniping what you are doing, but you “CANNOT” take a move action in ANY way while sniping because the stealth check IS your move action . . .
SHOULD BE:
Stealth allows a character to avoid being seen/heard through use of cover/concealment and moving silently. Action: is a non-action as part of a move action, however, it takes up a move action under the sniping rules.By your own standards if you Stealth/move, Attack, Stealth/move, you are breaking your own rules. There is no “essentially” about sniping, you are either sniping or you are not. You say sniping IS what you are doing, but you “CANNOT” take a move action in ANY way while sniping because the stealth check IS your move action . . .
UNDER, HIPS AS STATED IN THE SHADOWDANCER DESCRIPTION (2ND PARAGRAPH):
It sounds like you are completely disregarding the magical nature of his supernatural tie to darkness. You describe sounds like nothing more than a normal scrub jumping out of the shadows, hitting their target, and then running off again to try and hide in the shadows, which he more than likely will fail at.
SHOULD BE:
It sounds like you are completely disregarding the magical nature of his supernatural tie to darkness. What you describe sounds like nothing more than a normal scrub jumping out of the shadows, hitting their target, and then running off again to try and hide in the shadows, which he more than likely will fail at.I am sure there are other mistakes but after sleeping, I re-read the post and these particular mistakes stood out so much that it bothered me.
I'll confirm the wording is the same in 3 different locations (page 76 PHB, 2nd column 3rd paragraph), my archived copy of the 3.5 SRD in rtf format, and the one updated over at d20srd.org agree. "Action: Usually none. Normally you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action."
Speaking of Pathfinder, which also has the same working their except replacing hide with stealth, it is normally but not exclusively part of movement. This would be the case of someone in a ghillie suit setting up an ambush position, they aren't really moving when they stealth.
This is why I tend to default to "NO, you can't do that" when judging possible rules sometimes you open up the flood gates. So far its not as crazy as it was in 3.5 where it was just extremely unlikely you'd stay hidden if you put a monkey gripped large scythe into someone's face. Then again that player was playing a ninja so they weren't really 'hiding.'
It's that 'blipping' and being spotted during the attack that's more dangerous then anything. Most intelligent creatures can take a good guess about how fast you can move after a single attack and start dropping area of effect effects based on where you were. This is even more so in Pathfinder at higher levels when it used to be entirely possible in 3.5 to have a good enough hide check against an untrained spotter to pull off a hidden attack. Now in Pathfinder one can't even be sure that the Fighter in the opposing group has a maxed Perception (less 3) or not.
Yup, and at the cost of a feat (and levels in something that grants hide in plain sight, and the conditions qualifying for Hide in plain Sight) you get to skip out on the threat of being dispelled.
It's a cool option I think. You feel the stacking penalties balance it Shadowlord?
(And yeah, I like the slipping between cover skill use as well)
With regards to the Homebrew feat for HiPS you are talking about in this post:
I would suggest homebrewing a feat, or digging through 3.5 sourcebooks for one, that allows hide in plain sight to last a full attack action if you start one hidden, reducing the sneak's stealth check by 5 or so per swing until it drops below the target's last perception total (or the full attack ends, whichever comes first.
It would depend largely on the power balance in your home game and the house rules you are already using, as well as the PC's and NPC's in the game. I feel even under a strict adherence to the rules, a Rogue if he knows what he is doing (and works well with his party) can get SA on almost every attack he ever does, to include full attack actions. And then you have classes like the Ninja in the Complete Adventurer that at high levels could walk into a room and kill everything in it while staying Ethereal and safe from ever being seen or hit the entire time. So, when you stack it against things like that it wouldn't seem, at first glance, to be too unbalancing.
Then you have to put it to the test and use examples. What could a 5th lvl Rogue 10th lvl Assassin do with this feat? Well let’s say he maxed out Stealth +15 ranks, +3 class skill, by lvl 15 he probably has at least a base of 20 Dex, so that is another +5. Let’s say he knew all along he wanted to do this so he got Skill Focus Stealth, that's +6. So we are sitting at +29 to Stealth before ever accounting for magical equipment or rolling the die. Let's give him Shadowed Armor* +10 Stealth and a Cloak of Elvenkind +5 Stealth. And let’s give him a belt that adds +2 to Dex just to make the number even. Now we have a +45 without ever laying a hand on the die.
*These Items both give Competence bonuses and for the life of me I can't remember right now if they stack or not. I can't find the rule on PRD. It is only a +/- 5 difference in the example anyway so I am not too worried about it.
So lets say your Assassin rolls exactly average every time, IE 10. He will get a 55 Stealth check every time.
The Ranger has Perception as a class skill so we will use him for this example. 15 lvl Ranger has 15 ranks in Perception, +3 for class skill, and a Wis of 14 (since that is all he needs for his spells) giving another +2. So, he has a +20 to his skill and if he rolls exactly average every time that will be a 30 Perception.
By this model your Assassin could easily make four attacks without being seen. This Assassin only actually gets two attacks at a BAB +10/+5 made at a roughly 55/50 Stealth check against the Ranger's roughly 30 Perception check. So, I would say he will pull this off every single time, or close to it, and then by the rules of 5-foot step he can then make a movement and re-stealth without ever becoming visible at all. Full attack using the Stealth check from his last turn, then 5-foot step giving a new Stealth check. And oh by the way, that is 8d6 of SA damage every attack before he even calculates what he is doing with his weapon.
If you put it in that light then it could be ridiculously unbalancing to a game. But again, that depends on the power balance of the current game. A 15th lvl Ninja with a couple of the Ki feats could do roughly the same thing, but they run out of Ki, whereas the Assassin would never run out of HiPS. I have always played with the idea that if the NPC's can do it the Party can do it and if the Party can do it the NPC's can do it. I will tell you right now, a player might be excited by this, but the DM could take out the entire party with this one Assassin if he played his cards right and was well prepared.
My advice is, if you do work on home brewing this type of feat, make the prerequisites very high and turn the -5 into more like -10 or so.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong though, I think the idea could be fun in a certain game setting.
I'll confirm the wording is the same in 3 different locations (page 76 PHB, 2nd column 3rd paragraph), my archived copy of the 3.5 SRD in rtf format, and the one updated over at d20srd.org agree. "Action: Usually none. Normally you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action."
Speaking of Pathfinder, which also has the same working their except replacing hide with stealth, it is normally but not exclusively part of movement. This would be the case of someone in a ghillie suit setting up an ambush position, they aren't really moving when they stealth.
Thank you, Dorje Sylas.
This is why I tend to default to "NO, you can't do that" when judging possible rules sometimes you open up the flood gates. So far its not as crazy as it was in 3.5 where it was just extremely unlikely you'd stay hidden if you put a monkey gripped large scythe into someone's face. Then again that player was playing a ninja so they weren't really 'hiding.'
The problem I see with the default "NO" is that you may have a player who built his entire concept around HiPS as it is pretty much the epitome of stealth for a rogue type character. To deny him that can be damaging to the game. There have been many times when I have said "I'll get back to you," made up my own rule for the current situation, and then gone and studied the rules when I have time. Of course there are always things you will have to say just plain "no" to but those are usually abuses or intentionally overpowered/twink builds, something along those lines.
Ninja is ridiculous, at 20 they can use Ethereal Jaunt to stay ethereal for however long and use Ki points to give themselves the ability to attack things on the Material Plane with no miss chance or anything. It's crazy. I love the class actually but I honestly still think a Rogue is better, especially if you give him some HiPS.
It's that 'blipping' and being spotted during the attack that's more dangerous then anything. Most intelligent creatures can take a good guess about how fast you can move after a single attack and start dropping area of effect effects based on where you were. This is even more so in Pathfinder at higher levels when it used to be entirely possible in 3.5 to have a good enough hide check against an untrained spotter to pull off a hidden attack. Now in Pathfinder one can't even be sure that the Fighter in the opposing group has a maxed Perception (less 3) or not.
Yeah I agree, there are simple defenses that work wonderfully against a stealth HiPS guy. Readied action is a big one. At high levels you have Antimagic Field which negates the ability completely. And in the Magic Item Compendium there is a pair of goggles that lets you as a swift action to negate the cover/concealment of every creature in an area, or one creature, or something. (Don't quote me on the details but it's something like that) Anyway, I think it was designed with archers in mind, but if you take out cover/concealment your stealth guy pops up too; or at least that was my understanding of it.
I like the new skill roll ups. It makes a few skills that normally you wouldn’t see characters pay attention to stop and say hmm I should probably get that it lets me do a lot of really useful stuff. But yeah I see the rogues of the world taking a little bit of a hit (not too bad) because anyone could and in all likeliness will have a decent amount of Perception.
Ah, I found the answer to my question about HiPS and darkvision.
In the Additional Rules section of PRD:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
I know I'm going back a ways in the thread here, but I don't agree with this interpretation. I think that a character with the Shadowdancer version of HiPS can still hide from a character with Darkvision, even without cover or invisibility. The HiPS ability specifically states it can be used even when being observed.
Even if the shadows can't be seen by a creature with darkvision, they're still there, and their power can be tapped by the shadowdancer. I picture this as the shadowdancer not just blending in well with the shadows, but actually becoming part of the shadows themselves. Not enough to become insubstantial or even invisible, but it goes beyond a simple 'hide in shadows' check. That's why it's a supernatural ability, albeit one whose effectiveness is determined by skill.
Ah, I found the answer to my question about HiPS and darkvision.
In the Additional Rules section of PRD:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.I know I'm going back a ways in the thread here, but I don't agree with this interpretation. I think that a character with the Shadowdancer version of HiPS can still hide from a character with Darkvision, even without cover or invisibility. The HiPS ability specifically states it can be used even when being observed.
Even if the shadows can't be seen by a creature with darkvision, they're still there, and their power can be tapped by the shadowdancer. I picture this as the shadowdancer not just blending in well with the shadows, but actually becoming part of the shadows themselves. Not enough to become insubstantial or even invisible, but it goes beyond a simple 'hide in shadows' check. That's why it's a supernatural ability, albeit one whose effectiveness is determined by skill.
I think it's a terrible rule but that is how it is worded. It could be due to the fact that darkvision is black and white, so shape contrast is a lot sharper.
Edit: Shadowdancer: "I sneak attack you...what?" Target: "...dwarf"