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Mounted combat- You move at mounts speed, but the mount uses its action to move.(dose it use the charge action or do I)If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack.
Spirited Charge- When mounted and using the charge action,
you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple
damage with a lance).(am I using a charge action or is the mount?? all Im doing is pointing a lance not running)
Vital Strike- When you use the attack action, you can make
one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals
additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice
and add the results together, but do not multiply damage
bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming),
or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This
bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although
other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
Mounted combat- You move at mounts speed, but the mount uses its action to move.(dose it use the charge action or do I)If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack.Spirited Charge- When mounted and using the charge action,
you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple
damage with a lance).(am I using a charge action or is the mount?? all Im doing is pointing a lance not running)Vital Strike- When you use the attack action, you can make
one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals
additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice
and add the results together, but do not multiply damage
bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming),
or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This
bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although
other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
I dunno, it says when you make an Attack Action. Is that separate from the Charge Action? If so, Vital Strike wouldn't work on a Charge Attack Action. I think? The wording is a little funky.
I dunno, it says when you make an Attack Action. Is that separate from the Charge Action? If so, Vital Strike wouldn't work on a Charge Attack Action. I think? The wording is a little funky.Mounted combat- You move at mounts speed, but the mount uses its action to move.(dose it use the charge action or do I)If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack.Spirited Charge- When mounted and using the charge action,
you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple
damage with a lance).(am I using a charge action or is the mount?? all Im doing is pointing a lance not running)Vital Strike- When you use the attack action, you can make
one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals
additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice
and add the results together, but do not multiply damage
bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming),
or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This
bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although
other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
Charge is a specific type of full round action, Vital Strike and its associated feats cant be used in conjunction with a charge as they use standard actions.
A Charge Action is not a Move Action. The mount uses its own Move Action. But Charge is a Full-Round that you have no choice but to use if you want the mount to charge an enemy for you (or the mount) to attack. You do have to guide the mount into the charging action, after all.
I dunno, that's my interpretation.
yes I know but isn't the mount the one charging??p 202 under mounted combat (Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.)
If you get the bonuses to hit and damage from the Charge action (+2 to hit and damage, -2 AC) then you have performed a charge, which is a full round action. Both you and the horse act as 1 creature during a charge and that is what lends the lance its extra damaging power. You wouldn't get an extra standard action on top of that.
Well that makes vital strike much less useful. Most of the time when a player is moving to engage he will want to use the charge but the only time he wants to use the vital strike is when he moves to attack or overcome DR.
So are there any damage bonuses that work with Vital strike?
Power Attack?
Weapon Specialization?
Favored Enemy?
Oh you answered in the other thread! Thank you! and here too!
You never multiply any extra damage.
Well that makes vital strike much less useful. Most of the time when a player is moving to engage he will want to use the charge but the only time he wants to use the vital strike is when he moves to attack or overcome DR.
Yes that is the point of the feat. Other "Move and attack " special feats include cleave, greater cleave, spring attack, and shot on the run.
Please note that vital strike doesn't give a penalty to AC, so if your choice is between vital strike and charge its the choice between:
penalty to AC, bonus to hit, extra move (full round action)
Bonus damage, single move action (standard action)
Cleave is:
Two attacks different opponents, single move action (standard action)
Spring attack and shot on the run are:
Move and attack without AoO from one opponent move again (full round action)
Please note that vital strike doesn't give a penalty to AC, so if your choice is between vital strike and charge its the choice between:
You only have this choice after using 1-3 of your feats up. Considering how self limiting vital strike is I wonder why we need improved and greater vital strike.
Why not let it keep ratcheting up like power attack does for a single feat?
I am not saying that it isn't useful. Just that it is not giving much for a 3 feat chain.
Please note that vital strike doesn't give a penalty to AC, so if your choice is between vital strike and charge its the choice between:You only have this choice after using 1-3 of your feats up. Considering how self limiting vital strike is I wonder why we need improved and greater vital strike.
Why not let it keep ratcheting up like power attack does for a single feat?
I am not saying that it isn't useful. Just that it is not giving much for a 3 feat chain.
Depends consider a monk with this feat chain at level 20 and being enlarged. He has 4d8 damage normally and (since he can't get over improved iirc) that triples to 12d8 damage in a single hit.
If a fighter with a greatsword has all three and is enlarged he's looking at 3d6 x 4 = 12d6 plus all his other bonuses, as a standard action. Even with just the first feat he could concievably:
Power attack with combat expertise, still have a chance at hitting then hit for x2 weapon damage plus everything else. If it is that greatsword again that's 4d6, if he's enlarged that's 6d6+6 (power attack at level six) with +2 Dodge Bonus to AC, only -4 to hit.
It is situational and works best with weapons that give multiple dice to roll, as the more dice going in the more dice coming out.
Well that makes vital strike much less useful.
Well, think of it this way. If you're on horseback with a lance, charge is a no-brainer. If you're not mounted and have >1 move action (35-60 ft typically) to the target and qualify for the charge (straight line, at least 10 ft movement, etc), then charging is probably the better option as you get to attack and then full attack the next round. If you are <1 move (<30 ft typically) action from the target, move in with a loaded up Vital Strike and show em what you got.
It's very situational, but most feats are situational in nature.
By the current language of the feat, the things that get multiplied are:
Class dmg abilities that are not dice and are not precision dmg. FE dmg in Pathfinder is Precision-based, like Sneak attack. SA dice don't get multiplied. Strength bonuses don't get multiplied. Bonuses from Magic don't get multiplied.
Bonuses from feats are NOT excluded. Thus, specialization bonuses get multiplied.
Fighter weapon training is not excluded under any rules. It gets multiplied.
Power Attack damage is not precision based. It gets multiplied.
Incidental fixed damage bonuses from class and feats get multiplied.
Note: This means Fighters get more mileage out of this feat then Barbarians. I leave it to you to determine if a Paladin's Smite is considered 'magic' (I would), or it gets multiplied, too.
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Now, the INTENT might have been to just restrict it to the damage dice of the weapon. This is, of course, much too wimpy to even really consider blowing a feat on. You've spent multiple feats to get something that is almost, but not quite, as good as a full attack routine...IF you allow limited multipliers.
If you don't allow the multipliers, you pick up a whopping d8 to d12 extra damage by NOT charging and using a Pounce effect?
I actually like Vital Strike as a nod to the Tome of 9 Swords manuvers, which scaled nicely and effectively allowed full attack damage with standard actions. But multiplying only the base weapon damage? The feat isn't worth spending...I'll blow it on Pounce. Or Diamond Nightmare Blade, 4x dmg as a SA.
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Furthermore, the math backs up allowing limited effects in there that can increase damage.
Let's assume you have a target you can hit on a 1 (but a 1 misses auto). 95% chance of dmg with a SA, 95/75/50/25 with a full attack action (245% dmg).
You are a fighter, Str 30, with a +5 longsword, Weapon Spec and Mastery trees, Fighter training. YOur bonuses with your sword are +5 Magic, +10 Str, +4 Weapon training, +4/+6 spec.
With greater vital strike, AS INTENDED, you'd do a wahoo 3-24 + 25, x .95%. 38 damage. Wahoo.
With Pounce, you'd do 1-8 +25, x 2.45, or roughly 75 pts. Tell me why I'd blow 3 feats on vital strike, again? Oh, right, so I can do HALF DAMAGE. Gotcha.
With Vital Strike as written, you'd do about 3-24 +30 (Weapon Trainx3, Weapon spec/mastery x3) +15 (str+ magic) x .95%, or 3-24 +45, = 58. With Power Attack, you get -5/+5, for 75% of 3-24 (13) +30+15 +15 (PA x 3), or 73 x .75...about 58 damage over time, but almost as good as a full attack when you do hit.
Full Attack will still deal more damage...Strength is that powerful a factor. Barbarians can still use Power attack to up their damage.
Leave it as it is. It's a great alternative to a full attack that doesn't gimp a melee by lockinig them into one place, or forcing a charge build for great damage from one swing.
===Aelryinth
I thought you had to choose between combat expertise and power attack. But yes, if your character is likely to be moving around a lot or is up against someone you have a decent chance of hitting on the first attack but not on the rest, the vital strike feat tree is rather useful.
Nope you can do both, however that is a lot of penalty to take if you are full attacking. It's still something if you are only taking a standard action, however it doesn't hurt as much since it only affects one roll instead of 2~11.
stuff
No, Nothing get multiplied.
The list of things being multiplied is not exhaustive.. as that would have taken up way too much space.
Only the damage dice are multiplied. Nothing else.
I am looking at cleaning up this language.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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By the current language of the feat, the things that get multiplied are:
Class dmg abilities that are not dice and are not precision dmg. FE dmg in Pathfinder is Precision-based, like Sneak attack.
that is exactly wrong, fe is not precision damage in pf. it was in 3.0, but in 3.5 and pf its untyped physical damage
also fwiw you couldnt get fe bonus damage on elementals if it was precision.