Does anyone have any rules for temporary magic items?
I was thinking of magic arrows that can only be used once.
There is always a question about how many arrows you can recover after a fight and if you have paid 8000 gp for these 50 +3 arrows you will want to retrieve every one.
If the costs to enchant arrows was significantly less than a sword or bow players may not mind only getting to use each one once.
Maybe 1/10 the costs?
Then you could buy 50 +1 holy arrows for 800gp + 300gp for the master work. That is still 22gp per arrow that can only be used once but it might be worth it to an archer. Where 220gp per arrow means they will want a homing beacon on each one.
Does anyone have any rules for temporary magic items?
I was thinking of magic arrows that can only be used once.
Magic arrows CAN only be used once. There is a 50% chance of recovery if you miss but if they hit they are expended.
The disposable nature of ammunition is priced into the fact that you get 50 for the price of a comparable permanent weapon.
So the answer is no. A +3 arrow costs 160g each and you have a 50% chance to get it back. If you make a +3 bow you can shot it allot more than 100 times before it runs out.
When was the last time a player asked for magic arrows in your game? Using the 50=permanent makes no sense for players.
In AD&D +1 arrows were some of the earliest magic items we would find. Now they never show up because it makes no sense to bother with them. Once you have a good bow any chunk of wood with feathers that you shoot with it is fine.
That's the reason I never had any archers in my games, or played them myself.
Thing is, at low level you could get rather cheap one use magic arrows +1. But to have them permanent, you have to have a magic bow.
On the plus side: you could have a magical +1 frost bow and shoot +1 acid arrows with it, buying them cheap for the fight with the ogre that is going to happen.
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Archers are especially advantaged when they have to overcome special material damage reduction. Cold iron arrows are especially cheap, but silver arrows are rather affordable, too.
Also, it's much easier for an archer to carry around lots of bane arrows for different foes than for a melee character.
Also, while enhancement bonuses no longer stack since 3.5, other enchantments still do, allowing a nonepic character to wield an effective +19 weapon (or a +29 one with a paladin and greater magic weapon).
It has its advantages, it has its disadvantages, I'd say magical ammunition is balanced.
So if you hit your target the arrows are 100% recoverable?
If you hit your target the arrow is 100% destroyed.
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One thing you can do too when you are higher level is have a bow with a good plus on it and then have arrows that have different properties. That way when you are fighting the fire giants you can be pulling out the +1 frost arrows and when you are fighting the white dragon you are pulling out the +1 fire arrows.
The benefits for the bonus doesn't stack between arrows and bows, but you do take the better of the two. So if you have a +4 bow with +1 frost arrows, when you fire them, they are +4 frost arrows.
Yes, commonly you'll have your bow be say... +4 Seeking Speed and then a bunch of +1 arrows with several enchantments on it say...
20 x +1 Frost
20 x +1 shock
20 x +1 flaming
20 x +1 holy
20 x +1 unholy
20 x +1 holy shock
and so on.
Remember to get an efficient quiver (or three) though!
So the answer is no. A +3 arrow costs 160g each and you have a 50% chance to get it back. If you make a +3 bow you can shot it allot more than 100 times before it runs out.
Well consider this:
If you have a +3 longsword and you want to change it to +3 flaming it is going to cost you 14,000gp.If you have a +3 longbow and you want to change add flaming you buy a stack of +1 flaming arrows for 8000gp.
You can also have a stack of +1 ghost touch arrows, and +1 dragon's bane arrows....
So sure, you buy that +3 bow for the base enchantment but you get flexibility from the ammunition. Personally, when I'm passing out treasure I don't worry a huge deal about gold value pricing, the pricing is there to reflect the impact on the game. Scatter a handful of those +1 arrows around. If you want to give the PCs some +1 arrows then go for it (FWIW my group running a Cult of the Crimson Throne just got 20 of them so they aren't as rare as you think).
*Seriously ninjaed* I need to read to the bottom before posting :)
Where the advantage of the archer comes in is that if the DM allows you to purchase arrows individually (which only makes sense) then you can carry around your "golf bag" of specialized weapons much more inexpensively than a melee Fighter.
Personally, magic items are a little tougher to come by in the games I've played and GMed. Players tend to grab up whatever items they happen to stumble across that are useful. So not quite a 'golf bag' but we try and keep as much variety as possible.
If you hit your target the arrow is 100% destroyed.
That is the best argument I have heard yet for reducing the cost to enchant ammunition. Besides you can not just enchant an arrow to flaming you need to enchant it to +1 flaming.
so the Flaming ammo would cost
8300gp/50= 166gp each
Or dragon bane
8300/50 = 366 each
For those prices you could buy a bag of holding full of healing potions.
The arrow is 100% destroyed unless there's someone around with Make Whole, who can make it good as new for a single spell, and even those without Make Whole but with the ability to make magic arrows can fix an old one for half the cost of crafting a new one.
I think the 100% chance should simply be for the item getting lost somewhere in the underbrush.
If you hit your target the arrow is 100% destroyed.That is the best argument I have heard yet for reducing the cost to enchant ammunition. Besides you can not just enchant an arrow to flaming you need to enchant it to +1 flaming
Well considering the way the effects stack the +1 is a small price to pay for the flexibility the arrows get you. Consider how expensive a +3 dragons bane, giant bane, elemental bane, construct bane flaming longsword would be. With a bow you can get the benefits of exactly that for far far less by dialing in the ammo.
The arrow is 100% destroyed unless there's someone around with Make Whole, who can make it good as new for a single spell, and even those without Make Whole but with the ability to make magic arrows can fix an old one for half the cost of crafting a new one.
I think the 100% chance should simply be for the item getting lost somewhere in the underbrush.
Urm what? In the magic section it says explicitly that the magic is discharged from the item when it hits the target.
If you hit your target the arrow is 100% destroyed.That is the best argument I have heard yet for reducing the cost to enchant ammunition. Besides you can not just enchant an arrow to flaming you need to enchant it to +1 flaming.
so the Flaming ammo would cost
8300gp/50= 166gp each
Or dragon bane
8300/50 = 366 each
For those prices you could buy a bag of holding full of healing potions.
You can buy a bag of holding full of heal potions for around 166 gp~366gp?
Damn that's a fine diplomacy skill bonus you have there!
If you hit your target the arrow is 100% destroyed.That is the best argument I have heard yet for reducing the cost to enchant ammunition. Besides you can not just enchant an arrow to flaming you need to enchant it to +1 flaming.
so the Flaming ammo would cost
8300gp/50= 166gp each
Or dragon bane
8300/50 = 366 each
For those prices you could buy a bag of holding full of healing potions.
You can buy a bag of holding full of heal potions for around 166 gp~366gp?
Damn that's a fine diplomacy skill bonus you have there!
Yes the price to buy 50 arrows of +1 bane giant is 8300gp.
The cost of a cure light wounds potion is 50gp.Bag of holding is 2500gp
For 8300gp I can buy a type 1 bag of holding and 116 cure potions.
You could get a Hewar's Handy Haversack for 2000 and be able to afford 126 CLW potions but I am not sure if they would all fit.
1) Get rid of the +1 requirement for magic arrows. The cost comes down quite a bit right there.
That seems reasonable for ammo
2) Split bonuses between weapon and ammo (like +1 only for bows, but flaming only for ammo). Then combo's are especially valuable, since the archers cannot get the bonuses any other way.
I am not wild about that. There are so many range weapon cheese bonuses it would be tough to say which goes with which.
3) My fav, rule that bonuses from the weapon and ammo DO stack! There comes into some sick weapon potential, and justifies the additional cost.
I have considered this one but the bonuses stack to quickly. Way to easy to come up with a +6 but if you are paying 360gp or more for an arrow that would be reasonable.
4) Rule that ammo is a 1-shot item only. By item creation rules, that comparative difference should be 37.5% (multiplier of 750 vs 2000). That cuts the cost of ammo to 1/3, so even the 300+ per arrow shots come down to be much lower.
I do like this one. If arrows are only good for one shot then the one shot rules for item creation should apply.
Rules 1 and 4 sound to have the best combo potential with minimal game impact (only covers the item creation). I would combine them.
That sounds about right. It would bring the cost of a flaming arrow down from 8300/50=166gp to 2000x37.5%/50=15gp. At 15gp per shot it is a drain on the archer but not a game breaker. Another possibility is to consider it like oil of Flame arrow 50gpx3x5=750 == 750/50=15gp per arrow.
Now, I would actually like to see an even better Slaying Arrow. One where you need the name and/or a bit of the person's body to complete the enchantment, and acts as a Greater Slaying Arrow with +4 to the DC and the save is 100pts, save for half.
I completely agree. The pathfinder rules for arrow of slaying are DC 20 fort save or take 50 damage. Greater slaying is DC 23 fort or take 100.
I tossed out the idea of half damage on a successful save as way to powerful.
What about a cumulative -2 penalty on fort saves until the arrow is removed. If you can hit a guy with 5 arrows of slaying in a round that last save is at -8. Pulling one arrow out is a move action and clearing all arrows is a full round action?
That would put some teeth into them.
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Thanks for the Input! I take back the last three things I said about you.
Yes the price to buy 50 arrows of +1 bane giant is 8300gp.
The cost of a cure light wounds potion is 50gp.
Bag of holding is 2500gp
CLW potions are nearly worthless at higher levels
Flaming arrows are extremely useful at any level.Flaming Arrow Wins
CLW potion cures 1d8+1 damage * 116 = 638 HP healing
Flaming arrows inflict 1d8 +1 +(1d6 fire) * 50 = 500 HP damage
Healing Potion Win
Damage per ROUND
CLW potion cures 1d8+1 damage * 1/ round = 5.5 (avg)
Flaming arrows inflict 1d8 +1 +(1d6 fire) * Rate of Fire = RoF * 10 (avg)
Huge Flaming Arrow Win
Basically, what it boils down to is magic arrows are too expensive at low levels where you can't leverage their advantages and a bargain at high levels when you can.
That would be a curious house rule. Magic arrows cost increases with your BAB.
Don't forget that it was a bag of holding full of potions.
Always return the empties to get your deposit back.
When you bring back the empty you get an extra 50 potions.
So how does your math work out with 166 potions of healing?
CLW potions are nearly worthless at higher levels
Flaming arrows are extremely useful at any level.
Flaming Arrow Wins
Unless you are fighting a deamon, devil, red dragon, fire elemental, tiefling .....
Damage per ROUND
CLW potion cures 1d8+1 damage * 1/ round = 5.5 (avg)
Flaming arrows inflict 1d8 +1 +(1d6 fire) * Rate of Fire = RoF * 10 (avg)
Huge Flaming Arrow Win
Of course you are ignoring that any archer of level level 16+ will tear through 50 arrows in 10 rounds. So your damage per round is meaningless after 10 rounds.
But no one ever uses CLW potions out of combat? The idea that an item is useless if it is not used during initiative baffles me. I guess the Bag of holding is a useless item too.
Basically, what it boils down to is magic arrows are too expensive at low levels where you can't leverage their advantages and a bargain at high levels when you can.
That would be a curious house rule. Magic arrows cost increases with your BAB.
What a great house rule we decided that magic arrows are to expensive for low level characters so lets make them more expensive for the higher levels! That way they are never worth the expense.
Maybe you missed the tongue in cheek nature of the comparison? The comparison is ridiculous, I assumed the original concept was a joke.
Healing =/= Damage.
As for the arrows being 'less useful' against certain targets, that's just silly. It's like saying using healing potions when you have full health is useless. If an item isn't effective against a target you don't use it.
On the flip side, as has been pointed out the arrows will be used against targets with vulnerabilities.
What a great house rule we decided that magic arrows are to expensive for low level characters so lets make them more expensive for the higher levels! That way they are never worth the expense.
#1 sarcasm is obnoxious and I've been fairly polite here. Don't be an ass.
#2 I said "are too expensive at low levels"... maybe if you weren't so focused on being a jerk you'd have realized I meant to lower the price at lower levels.
The original comparison was to show how an extremely useful pile of magic items that are considered valuable at any level compare to the temporary advantage that 50 magic arrows give.
I was amusing that you were just ignoring that fact.
When you make an item that is vastly less useful for the gold then no one will ever want it. So why have it in the book?
When an adventurer has all +7 gear and is followed by a caravan to haul his treasure he may join the arrow of the week club. But until there is nothing else to buy the arrows are pointless.
That is the point I was trying to make.
I personally don't care that you don't like my ideas. I was looking for some constructive criticism on making a house rule. If you have something constructive to add I would be happy to hear it.
To Mirror's House Rules:** spoiler omitted **
BTW, I don't know what Mirror is talking about, shaving the base damage off the arrows.
What Mirror Mirror was saying is that when comparing the use of flaming arrows you should cancel out the base damage of the arrow.
The advantage of a flaming arrow is the extra 1d6 flaming you pick up. You can assume that they have a supply of normal arrows that do 1d8 already. I would also ignore the +1 damage from the magic since if you are blowing 8300gp on a quiver of arrows you have probably got a magic bow and the damage bonuses from the bow will not stack with ammunition.
50 flaming arrows
3.5x50 = 175 extra damage
That is 8300/175 = 47gp for every extra damage point you do assuming you hit with every shot.
When it comes to the golf bag of arrows holy and bane make allot more sense. I would buy a bag full of bane dragon arrows over 1 dragon slaying arrow any day but that is just showing how weak the slaying arrows are.
Bane arrows boost the weapon bonus by 2 and add 2d6
50*9=450 extra damage
8300/450= 18gp per extra point of damage assuming you hit with every arrow.
Holy would do the same and be useful against far more opponents but that would cost 18300gp for a stack of 50.
18300/450 = 40 gp per extra damage.
To be fair holy arrows are more valuable since they will also get you past DR/good.
Holy is such a great bonus that would be one of the first bonuses players will put on a bow. So why waste it on arrows?
Until you have saved up for the +5 holy bow of +X str there is no reason to buy magic arrows. Which brings me back to why I wanted to make a rule for a magic arrow players would be willing to spend money on.
Rule 1 & 4 ?
I personally don't care that you don't like my ideas. I was looking for some constructive criticism on making a house rule. If you have something constructive to add I would be happy to hear it.
Constructive criticism:
It makes sense to reduce the price of arrows at low levels because the benefit the party gets is fairly moderate.It makes less sense when the players are higher level and get a bigger benefit from those same items (because the effects stack with the bow).
Constructive criticism:
If you are looking for constructive criticism I suggest you read what people post and make an effort to understand what they are saying before mocking their post in a sarcastic tone.
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So the answer is no. A +3 arrow costs 160g each and you have a 50% chance to get it back. If you make a +3 bow you can shot it allot more than 100 times before it runs out.
When was the last time a player asked for magic arrows in your game? Using the 50=permanent makes no sense for players.
I've found that magic arrows are a different beast when it comes to magic items. They are 1-shot in my games, so they aren't that well prized. At low levels, +1 arrows are something that players find and then use, and I don't really count them as treasure.
In later levels, arrows are a perfect way to up bow guys attacks: Giving out 2 or 10 +6 (with abilities) arrows makes them worthwhile. The abilities means they don't have to get a new bow for each ability/elemental damage they want to deal. As someone who's been screwed over by elemental damage or abilities that don't work versus specific creatures before, it's nice to have a backup plan in the form of 10 or so arrows, rather than finding out my MECHA-bow sucks now.
The other way is if someone needs them for 1 or 2 encounters. Our samarai needed a magical bow for a fight, but didn't want to go to the trouble of buying a magical bow and paying out an additional 8000 (or 4000 if he sold it) for something that would be used once. He bought arrows instead, borrowed a bow on the cheap, and then threw it away afterward.
Sorry if that had been noted above, but that's my 2 cp.
Constructive criticism:
It makes sense to reduce the price of arrows at low levels because the benefit the party gets is fairly moderate.It makes less sense when the players are higher level and get a bigger benefit from those same items (because the effects stack with the bow).
/ignore sarcasm
What mechanism would you use? Would you sell them arrows at 25% cost until they hit level 6? Toss out an NPC who plays sugar daddy with arrows and then kill him off later?
I dislike rules that change as you level.
If I wanted to be "nice" I could just toss out bundles of cold/acid/flame arrows in the treasure they pick up. But why wouldn't they take those arrows and sell them to an NPC to help buy that +1 holy bow the ranger keeps drooling on? They are far more valuable traded in for permanent magics than the temporary benefit they offer to the party.
Nonetheless, they would still be found as treasure, because all people are not adventurers.
Consider that long ago the Emperor of Hither, the Queen of Thither and the Nabob of Yon all got the idea of outfitting their elite archery captains with a quiver of assorted magical arrows to be parceled out among their green recruits in event of emergency. The arrows were commissioned in the standard batches of fifty, then sorted into quivers for a standard assortment: 5 +2 arrows, 5 +1 flaming, +5 +1 frost, 5 +1 shock, 5 +1 thundering, 5 +1 distance, 5 +1 seeking, and 15 assorted +1 bane arrows for the people and monsters they were most likely to meet. The nocks could be dipped in various colors of paint, and the three vanes of the fletching had two hens and a cock (<-- proper word for one of an arrow's three vanes and also a male chicken here censored by dirty-minded computer filter) which could likewise be easily color coded so archers would know what type of arrow they were selecting without doing Detect Magic and Appraise every time. Of course, the heralds had different systems for the various kingdom, so while everyone agreed red fletching was a pretty good idea for the flaming arrows, Hither and Thither used blue and white respectively for shock arrows, while the Nabob of Yon decided that yellow fletching from his native yellow axebeak was appropriate for shock arrows, along with the odd Yonese character "Pikachu" which the scholars of Hither and Thither thought was supposed to be a mouse, and asking what it has to do with electricity led to exceedingly improbable tales from the bards. Either people in Yon are weird or their monsters are.
Anyway, what this means is that you can occasionally find caches of 50 assorted magical arrow, worth 8000 GP total, or 160 GP per arrow, and all it takes is a check on Knowledge Nobility to figure out whether you're dealing with an arrow coded in the heraldic system of Hither, Thither or Yon. And these have good resale value, because while adventurers may want a reliable magic bow, someone looking to kill a specific someone or something quick will find a few bane arrows do the job nicely. And who can forget that incident where the Red Dragon of Dimwallen (posthumously known as Dimwit the Red) decided to attack Mistress Minerva's Academy of Sorcery, and after Mistress Minerva threw an Invisibility Sphere, her girls showed their proficiency with True Strike, Launch Bolt, and an assortment of Cold and Dragonbane arrows?
Just because an item isn't as useful or cost-effective for adventurers doesn't mean it isn't useful or cost-effective for someone.
I regularly let magic items dealers buy and sell arrows individually and don't even bother with a mark-up since the kid who comes in to buy the single arrow of bugbear slaying today will be drooling over the flaming burst crossbow on the wall and saving up his GP to buy it.
It would bring the cost of a flaming arrow down from 8300/50=166gp to 2000x37.5%/50=15gp. At 15gp per shot it is a drain on the archer but not a game breaker. Another possibility is to consider it like oil of Flame arrow 50gpx3x5=750 == 750/50=15gp per arrow.
This is the argument which convinces me. :) Added to the list!
It would bring the cost of a flaming arrow down from 8300/50=166gp to 2000x37.5%/50=15gp. At 15gp per shot it is a drain on the archer but not a game breaker. Another possibility is to consider it like oil of Flame arrow 50gpx3x5=750 == 750/50=15gp per arrow.This is the argument which convinces me. :) Added to the list!
In that calculation I did forget that to make the enchanted arrows you need master work. So add another 300gp to the cost or 6gp per arrow.
(750+300) / 50 = 21gp
Still allot better and it will make a booming market for all would be fletchers.
In that calculation I did forget that to make the enchanted arrows you need master work. So add another 300gp to the cost or 6gp per arrow.
(750+300) / 50 = 21gp
Still allot better and it will make a booming market for all would be fletchers.
6gp for +1 to hit isn't highway robbery at low levels, anyway.
Devlin's Barb
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Assassin 1, Sorcerer/Wizard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard action
Range: Personal
Effect: One arrow, bolt, bullet or sling stone
Duration: One minute/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You create an arrow, bolt, bullet or sling stone (with no magical or masterwork properties). The created object disappears when the duration ends. Assassins use this spell even when ammunition is plentiful, because it leaves no trace of the weapon that caused the wound.
Devlin’s Ring
If you wear this wooden ring and pull back on an empty bow of any kind, an arrow appears, nocked and ready to fire. Should you fire the arrow, it inflicts damage and acts in all ways as a normal arrow. If you don’t fire the arrow it fades after one round. You can use this ring to produce more than one arrow per round if you have multiple attacks.
Faint Conjuration; CL 1st, Forge Ring, devlin’s barb; Price 2,000 gp
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This spell and magic item appeared in Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might.
Devlin's Barb
Devlin’s Ring
These are cool. Though I don't know if it's really worth a 1st level spell. The ring is pretty awesome though!
Devlin's Barb
Devlin’s Ring
These are cool. Though I don't know if it's really worth a 1st level spell. The ring is pretty awesome though!
Eh, make the spell more like the ring. Let the spell summon as many arrows/bolts/stones as you have caster levels so at least your wizard can have some ammo on hand for his Launch Bolt cantrip, or for throwing Magic Weapon on.
6gp for +1 to hit isn't highway robbery at low levels, anyway.In that calculation I did forget that to make the enchanted arrows you need master work. So add another 300gp to the cost or 6gp per arrow.
(750+300) / 50 = 21gp
Still allot better and it will make a booming market for all would be fletchers.
The +1 will disappear if you have a magic bow but yes.
The ring is great but that spell should be a L2 Ranger spell