So obviously I don't see this happening often simply due to the fact that Huge size creature would have a fairly High CMD from their Strength, extra legs and size modifiers.
In certain scenarios I see it being possible, the specific example would be a barbarian designed around battle field control using Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and abilities like Strength Surge. An 8th level barbarian with such a build while raging could easily have a bonus to his trip attack of +26 (+8 BAB, +6 Str, +4 (Trip Feats), +8 (Strength Surge)) or more. A creature of size Huge, a good example in this instance is a 9 Headed Hydra has a CMD of 28 ( 10(base), +10(BAB), +5(Str), +1 (Dex), +2(size), +2( 4 legs)). All the barbarian needs to roll to trip this creature is a 2, and that's once per rage so obviously it would happen perhaps once per combat if the barbarian rages every combat. This seems like something the barbarian could do extremely easily (roll a 2) and yet the Trip size restriction keeps him from it.
My thought is to allow size restrictions to be negated for that 1 Rage ability (or simply allow the size to be upped one category, ie Large -> Huge), but this may be too powerful even then as a barbarian could get this feat at 2nd level and conceivably trip any Huge creature.
A "The Bigger they are the harder they fall" rage power? Seems alright to me. It's automatically self limiting in a number of ways:
1. Only during rage.
2. Only against creatures larger than large (and while there are such beasts they are not common).
3. Still doesn't negate the rest of the CMD, which as you said, is probably going to be rather high.
If you think it would need a little more, make it require the Strength boosting rage power, don't let it be taken before 8th level, and only allow it to work once per opponent (or once per rage).
It gives a nice, almost Conan like effect that really isn't useful against a majority of opponents.
It gives a nice, almost Conan like effect that really isn't useful against a majority of opponents.
Exactly! Greatclub to the back of the knee sort of attack, dropping them for a round providing maybe an extra AoO or two while they get up, mostly fluff in the long run and it makes the PC feel he's done something sort of superhuman.
One question: how do you plan on tripping someone you barely reach the knee of? It'd be like a hobbit trying to trip an orc; possible, if you have something to trip it on, but not going to happen in combat...
Hit it in that knee of course -- really really hard. Like say with the strength of a barbarian raging. Maybe a bit like this rage power he is suggesting.
After all if the mage can fireball, and the monk can teleport a little rage power that gives a fairly iconic power to a barbarian isn't such a "huge" deal.
I love it! I'm totally gonna add a Tarrasque Tipping Rage power to my homebuilt!
One question: how do you plan on tripping someone you barely reach the knee of? It'd be like a hobbit trying to trip an orc; possible, if you have something to trip it on, but not going to happen in combat...
It seems more plausible than a hobbit grappling a giant, which is allowed by the combat maneuver rules! (There's no size restriction with grapple.)
One question: how do you plan on tripping someone you barely reach the knee of? It'd be like a hobbit trying to trip an orc; possible, if you have something to trip it on, but not going to happen in combat...It seems more plausible than a hobbit grappling a giant, which is allowed by the combat maneuver rules! (There's no size restriction with grapple.)
Well that needs to be fixed. As for trip, I think I would allow a huge creature to be tripped if it only had two legs. Otherwise I think it's balance is just too spread out to be tripped.
I'm fairly sure the reason that tripping is limited to creatures one size above you is that while you might still have a chance to use it against someone twice the size of you, four times the size of you is just a little ridiculous.
Then that's better modeled by increasing the size bonus to CMD rather than adding an arbitrary restriction.
If your character is as strong as Hercules, then why shouldn't he be able to trip a giant?
Well that needs to be fixed. As for trip, I think I would allow a huge creature to be tripped if it only had two legs. Otherwise I think it's balance is just too spread out to be tripped.One question: how do you plan on tripping someone you barely reach the knee of? It'd be like a hobbit trying to trip an orc; possible, if you have something to trip it on, but not going to happen in combat...It seems more plausible than a hobbit grappling a giant, which is allowed by the combat maneuver rules! (There's no size restriction with grapple.)
If a first level wizard were to cast Enlarge Person on this barbarian he could trip the creature without any change in the roll needed (technically it would be 1 or higher, but since 1's are auto fails, then the extra bonus is negated) and it would satisfy every rule on the subject.
And as for the question of how...we play a game based 90% on imagination and 10% on a set of mutable, non-mandatory, rules established by the person who's imagination primarily controls the game. If you cant think of a way for a big barbarian using every muscle in his body on 1 combat Maneuver to knock down a big monster then I wonder where the imagination part went.
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Think of it this way: My cat does a pretty good job of trying to trip me, and he's just trying to be my friend. I'm pretty sure I'm two size categories bigger than him.
I don't have a hard time believing that a human could trip a Huge giant. You don't have to push them over: just get underfoot and screw with their balance.
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If I just planted my feet, no, he would not be able to trip me. Well, not by just getting underfoot.
However, one of the assumptions of combat is that creatures are always moving, to some degree. It's why a human is considered to actually fill a 5-foot space, for example, and why creatures receive a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class.
If my cat were to actually attack my feet (why he has also done, on occasion,) I am obligated to either move my feet, with the resulting shifting of weight and vulnerability to being tripped, or recieve a painful bite and/or scratch.
Likewise, a Giant has an obvious reason to keep his feet away from a human wielding a honking big sword: he might lose a toe or worse. Even if the human were apparently unarmed, would you, as a giant, want a knee high foe to be able to grab onto your foot, when you have no idea what he's planning or what hidden pointy bits he might be waiting to draw once he was a good grip on your leg-hairs?
Even if the giant has the presence of mind to just plant his feet because he knows his foe's goal is simply a trip, we get to my qualifier about 'not by just getting underfoot'. (And I think this is already covered by the mechanic: Creatures better trained to fight have better BAB and therefore better CMD.)
Once you're holding still, you open yourself up to lots of new ways to get knocked down. A solid blow to the back of the knee is one choice (I understand that this is actually a takedown trick taught to some smaller breeds of dog.) Another choice for your 'I have a strength score in the 30's' raging barbarian is just grabbing on to the giant's boots and lifting (since you can trip an opponent by more than just pushing them down.) Or untying his bootlaces. Or pulling his legs toward each other (with or without a cable, AT-AT style.)
If he's standing still he opens himself up to having his achilles tendon cut or a sword slash to one of the massive arteries that supplies blood to the legs.. or some other sensitive targets the barbarian could reach. When you are in combat and there is a little dude with a 3+' sword running around at your feet you don't plant your feet so he can't trip you.
Is it considered a trip attack to headbut someone in the jewels then knock them down when they are reacting?
The (real life) cat vs. human and (D&D) human barbarian vs. hydra comparison is not very good.
A cat is nowhere near as strong as a human, but it's trivial to have a human barbarian that's stronger than a hydra (Str 17-23).
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The (real life) cat vs. human and (D&D) human barbarian vs. hydra comparison is not very good.
A cat is nowhere near as strong as a human, but it's trivial to have a human barbarian that's stronger than a hydra (Str 17-23).
I think that makes the cat vs. human a great example. If the weaker cat can trip a human (and I'll second that this happens without the cat even meaning to), then certainly a super strong human barbarian can trip a hydra.
Another thing to consider when you think about it is that it's not just an issue of when the target is moving you trip them, but if you're trained in tripping, you specifically either move them off balance then trip, or simply wait for them to take a step and not have all of their feet on the ground.