That isn't quite right on the math... but it's a statistics thing I can't rightly explain.
Reason for 3rd level spell:
Improved Critical is an 8th level feat, minimum.
A +1 Keen weapon costs 8,300+ weapon costs, which in 3.5 wasn't really do-able until 9th-10th level... even in pathfinder it isn't likely before 8th level (really not even then).
Basically you are getting the effect 3 levels earlier than anyone else can already (at 5th level for a wizard), for anyone that you care to cast it on with any weapon they care to use.
So you got it earlier than anyone else with more versatility than anyone else.
Eh, it's not a very good spell, no. If it lasted an hour per level, it might be more useful when extended and thus turned into an all-day buff. Perhaps in conjunction with a sword that mainly has +1d6 damage effects, allowing Greater Magic Weapon to provide the enhancement bonus, with an all day Keen Edge as the cherry on top. But as is, it really isn't even worth casting.
I suppose its status is from a combination of critical hits being overrated, and from 3e where it was considerably more useful, as it stacked with Improved Critical, allowing for falchions with crit ranges of 12-20 before throwing in any other crit-boosting toys.
Edit:
So you got it earlier than anyone else with more versatility than anyone else.
Which doesn't change the fact that it just isn't very good.
So you got it earlier than anyone else with more versatility than anyone else.Which doesn't change the fact that it just isn't very good.
But again that's not all it is. It is earlier, for 10 min/level, for anyone with any weapon you choose, and will still work on a normal magic weapon, doubling your chances of a critical hit, which at minimum doubles your damage (unless you are a rogue, and possibly even then). When combined with power attack, weapon specialization, magical weapons, buffs, and 1 1/2 strength damage with a two handed weapon this can turn a fight into nothing. Unlike fireball or stinking cloud it has no drawback to its use, and is available for longer too. In addition to the fact that even if the person using it dies, you can pass the weapon on to someone else to use.
Plus it is one of the only 3rd level buffs spells you can "only" get 3~4 fights out of. Haste can't do that, good hope can't do that, aid can't do that either.
It also saves the fighter a lot of money later on. If extended at say 11th level it will last for 220 mins, or 3 hours and 40 minutes, easily enough time to do a good amount of adventuring, and the fighter saves the +1 bonus or feat he would have spent on getting the effects of the spell, meaning he can instead have another option with the feat, or the extra money back to get a different enhancement bonus instead.
Why is keen edge 3rd level?
The same reason most spells and abilities are a particular level: some game writer, back in the day, needed another spell to fill that level or just decided that it looked good in that level for no particular reason. It's got nothing to do with math; you might as well ask "why is raise dead 5th level instead of 1st level?" It's just because Dave/Gary/whoever decided that it belonged there.
Creative Director
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It's worth noting that, after several editions and an extensive playtest, this is the first time I've heard the complaint that keen edge is too high level. Had this concern been raised earlier, say, during the playtest, we would have been able to look the spell over. Jason Bulmahn might be able to give a more detailed analysis of why the spell's a 3rd level spell, but he's still in recovery mode from Gen Con Australia.
My only guess: Keen edge is 3rd level because it has a pretty healthy duration, and because it duplicates a feat that you can't get until, at the earliest, 8th level. Since Improved Critical is "always on, all the time" it's a bit tougher than a spell that has the same effect but only lasts for (at minimum) 50 minutes, so pegging it as something you can get access to at three levels lower than Improved Critical, as a 3rd level spell available at 5th level, seems pretty fair and balanced compared to the feat.
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Quite honestly, I've had great success with the various keen effects. When applied to my Falchion and mixed with power attack, I would normally crit at least once per battle, and keen is amazingly more helpful when you have secondary attacks (taking into account that particular DM didn't confirm crits). In my opinion though, keen is pretty much only worth the cost (or the spell slot) when put on an 18-20 range weapon. Then, on 30% of attacks, you land a critical hit. I'd say that's pretty good, personally.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd point out that keen edge is more useful the higher you go, and not just in Pathfinder/BoXM DR land. IF you use the materials/DR rules, the fighter's main weapon might be a +2 ghost touch undead bane thundering weapon (+5 cost for 50K GP) for demons he carries a +1 Holy cold Iron weapon, (20 K) for devils a mithral holy weapon (18-21K). To make them keen would cost (22k + 14k + 14k)= another 50K. Or he can have his wizard buddy charge whatever weapon works best for a 3th level spell. This is significant.
If you use the Pathfinder BoXM rules, then the cost factor is even more. Your fighter's 'weapon of bypass everything' has to be a +5 before anything else. Keen is the difference between +5 and +6 so that's 22K there. If I'm building a weapon of bypass anything, I'm going to add ghost touch, so we're looking at +6 vs +7 or 26K. That's a cloak of resistance +5 that is being saved for a 3rd level spell. Heck, give the Wizard that 26K and let him buy a pearl of power (16K) and a lesser rod of extend (3K) and spend the rest on hookers and beer ;-)
I think it's better to consider the weapon costing 4,300gp for a do-it-yourselfer, and as a +2 Bonus Weapon could be crafted at 6th level. Also, that price is a minimum because of the way Arms & Armor costs scale exponentially (which I personally hate). Thus, no potential "feature" of a weapon can be said to have a true, set price unless you accept it as the minimum cost after only a +1 enhancement ... but that's an academic question.
But since you're talking cost, a 3rd level effect item should cost 30,000 gp. Consider a "keen letter-opening" as a wondrous item. The cost is 2,000 gp base (permanent, use-activated item) * 3 (spell level) * 5 (caster level).
So really your Keen Longsword +1 should cost 32,300 gp rather than 8,300gp. Now who's getting the deal?
Since keen is an "upgrade" to the base +1, it really should be considered to cost only the +6,000 "upgrade cost" of a +1 bonus effect over a +1 enhancement. By this logic and the wondrous item pricing, as a 2nd level spell it would still cost twice as much, at 12,000 gp
Consider that to craft a Keen weapon you must be 10th level in 3.5... and pathfinder since the caster level is 10? Besides the lowest price of the weapon would be 8,000 gp. That price, by the wealth by level charts tells me you are wrong.
So the earliest it is available is still the third level spell, and the next is a feat that only works for one weapon, means the wizard is indeed ahead.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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after several editions and an extensive playtest, this is the first time I've heard the complaint that keen edge is too high levelI wonder if it's just that it was so rarely used (do to the poor cost/benefit ratio) it never came up. I've never used it in-game, and only stumbled over it as a cost thing while creating some magic items that suddenly became grossly expensive. I'd always thought prior to last week that it was 2nd level.
Well, lots of stuff was brought up during playtesting of beta, even rarely used spells. For example, I brought up the spell Shambler, and pointed out a possible abuse, and it got tweaked in the final cut. Now, I've never used, or seen this spell used before, but I read beta cover to cover and looked for things that jumped out at me as needing a look.
Personally, I think it's just fine as a 3rd level spell. Not likely one you'd use at 5th level, since you want to save your slots then for fly, fireball, lightning bolt, haste, etc., but by 9th level, you can afford to spend a slot on keen edge and use it on the fighter's weapon, thus saving him from using a feat or a +1 ability on his weapon for something else that's not so easily duplicatable by a spell. As already pointed out, it's more and more valuable as you get higher and higher levels, while that 3rd level spell slot is worth comparitavely less and less (not to mention the duration gets better.)
In my opinion though, keen is pretty much only worth the cost (or the spell slot) when put on an 18-20 range weapon.
Statistically, both 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons will do the same damage, on average (given the same base damage, of course). With keen versions, or using the Improved Critical feat, the weapons become 15-20/x2 and 19-20/x4 respectively; again, the same average damage. Note that additional damage from burst and thundering abilities are also equivalent. This is why falchions, heavy picks, rapiers, scimitars, and scythes are popular choices for PCs who focus on maximizing damage; the effect of a successful critical hit, when factored in the average damage, provides a significant advantage.
However, if a successful critical deals a status effect (from a feat or weapon ability), instead of just extra damage, then using a 18-20/x2 weapon is better than a 20/x4 one. The higher chance of a critical (and the corresponding status effect) is more significant.
Personally, when "building" a (melee) damager, I usually tend toward a goal of obtaining a +4 holy speed thundering falchion and taking the Improved Critical (falchion) and Power Attack feats. Holy does an extra +2d6 against all evil opponents (and bypasses most evil outsider DR), speed for the extra attack, thundering for extra sonic damage on a critical, Improved Critical to increase the chance for a critical hit, and Power Attack to increase the base damage; note that a scythe would also work for this type of character. A more involved option is to specialize in Two-Weapon Fighting to maximize the number of attacks with two heavy picks, rapiers, or scimitars (using the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting feat and possibly the tempest PrC from Complete Adventurer); this requires more investment in feats and weapon enchantments.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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In my opinion though, keen is pretty much only worth the cost (or the spell slot) when put on an 18-20 range weapon.Statistically, both 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons will do the same damage, on average (given the same base damage, of course).
There is one difference between them though. The weapons that have x3 or x4 but crit less often have a greater chance of their extra crit damage doing anything. If you're fighting someone with 17 hp, and you do 9 hp on a regular hit, and 18 on a x2 crit, the crit is significant because you take them down in one hit. If you do 36 hp on a x4 crit, you still take them down, but your extra damage is wasted.
Sure, when you fight someone with 100 hp, the 36 damage on a x4 crit is great, but it's statistically the same as 2 x2 crits for 18 hp each.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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The weapons that have x3 or x4 but crit less often have a greater chance of their extra crit damage doing anything. If you're fighting someone with 17 hp, and you do 9 hp on a regular hit, and 18 on a x2 crit, the crit is significant because you take them down in one hit. If you do 36 hp on a x4 crit, you still take them down, but your extra damage is wasted.The first and second sentences here counter-argue one another.
The advantage of a x3 or x4 weapon really only comes into play against high DR opponents. Otherwise, get the damage in early and often, even if it is statistically the same in the long run.
R.
Yeah, that could have been more clear. I should have said that weapons that have x3 or x4 but crit less often have a greater chance of their extra crit damage not doing anything more than a x2 crit weapon. In effect, some of the times they do x3 or x4 damage, that extra damage is overkill if x2 would have been enough to drop the foe.
In my opinion though, keen is pretty much only worth the cost (or the spell slot) when put on an 18-20 range weapon.Statistically, both 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons will do the same damage, on average (given the same base damage, of course).There is one difference between them though. The weapons that have x3 or x4 but crit less often have a greater chance of their extra crit damage doing anything. If you're fighting someone with 17 hp, and you do 9 hp on a regular hit, and 18 on a x2 crit, the crit is significant because you take them down in one hit. If you do 36 hp on a x4 crit, you still take them down, but your extra damage is wasted.
Sure, when you fight someone with 100 hp, the 36 damage on a x4 crit is great, but it's statistically the same as 2 x2 crits for 18 hp each.
<shrug> As stated, there is no statistical difference. The issue with "wasted" damage is usually only relevant at lower levels, when opponents have few enough hit points to go down after one or two normal hits.
The only difference is with player preference (one massive hit or a couple big hits) and whether there are status effects involved (i.e., sword of life stealing from DMG, the enfeebling ability from Book of Exalted Deeds, the souldrinking ability from Book of Vile Darkness, etc.).
Anyway, investing in improving critical hits is usually only worthwhile with 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 weapons, IMO (in 3.5 rules; 3.0 rules, with the stacking of Improved Critical and keen, plus the weapon master PrC in Sword and Fist, is a different story).
I just wanted to make a quick post to say I like the spell Keen Edge.
It's a lot of fun to cast, either for another party member or on my own weapon of choice. My wizard is always going to add it to his spell books. My sorcerer probably won't take it as a spell known unless he's going to be fighting upfront himself, given too few choices, but I'll certainly buy a Wand of Keen Edge for him.
I'm okay with it being a 3rd level spell, it wouldn't hurt the game if it was pulled down to 2nd, but I think that has more to do with the selection of 2nd level arcane spells than anything else.
Certainly, I don't want to see it disappear.
Peace,
tfad
When you play a fighter, every bonus they can get matters. However, there is one thing that's not right in the discussion above. You just can't compare a permanent keen effect to a temporary one. The spell, while somewhat useful, is vulnerable to dispel magic, antimagic, and its duration will run out. If your fighter has the option and no permanent effect, he's going to want it, but it doesn't mean you can compare the two. It's one thing to be able to use it in one combat, maybe a few, quite another to always factor it in. Personally, I wouldn't take it at 3rd level, there are tons of spells that are more useful.
And here I'd be betting a fighter would take a mirror image, or a fireball, or an invisibility, or a dispel magic, or any number of other spells before keen edge, if he had a ring of spell storing.
Ultimately, the Keen effect just doesn't contribute much. A good Bull's Strength will give you more damage on average, and at higher levels, where you can tack some nice effects onto your critical hits, the Fighter already has Improved Critical, and it doesn't stack with Keen.
Maybe if it were an hour per level and/or a second-level spell, it would be more worthwhile.
The draw I see is that wealth and feats are generally more limited than spells, as resources. If I can save a boatload of gold by not getting keen on a sword that already costs 100K or more, and then spend the feat I would have used on Improved Critical on Critical Focus instead, then I'm in line to maximize my chances of getting some excellent status effects at the rock-bottom lowest possible cost.
That said, I'd like it to be 1 hour/level, not 10 min./lvl... But that's true of ALL 10 min./lvl effects.
But then, the main character type who would benefit significantly at higher levels would be a critically inclined Fighter, who gets twenty, twenty-one feats anyways, and for whom Improved Critical really isn't a cost (not like there are a whole lot of other competing combat feats when you're getting twenty feats), and is in fact the wiser investment as it can't be dispelled or removed by an AMF.
But then, the main character type who would benefit significantly at higher levels would be a critically inclined Fighter, who gets twenty, twenty-one feats anyways, and for whom Improved Critical really isn't a cost (not like there are a whole lot of other competing combat feats when you're getting twenty feats), and is in fact the wiser investment as it can't be dispelled or removed by an AMF.
That's very true inasfar as only fighters can get multiple effects on a single crit, and yes, the feat is way better. However, some of the individual crit effects are attractive enough that I can easily see barbarians, paladins, or especially rogues wanting "in" on them -- and with those classes' limited feats, and with any critical effect already requiring two feats minimum, keen edge becomes something of a "poor man's Improved Critical."
MIB, with crits able to permanently blind people now (for example), they're hardly "+x damage" anymore. Indeed, your entire post was a great critique of crits in 3.5, but not at all a reply to my post.
EDIT: Yes, I know this is the 3.5 section, but my post specifically called out why the spell might currently be worthwhile, not why it WAS in 3.5 (which it wasn't).
Those feats are so weak that specializing in them is still the realm of classes who have so many feats that they take increasingly-weak options just for a lack of anything to do.
Which nicely summarizes all of melee in 3.0/3.5/3.PF: Fighters Don't Get Nice Things.
So you make the best of a bad lot.Although, your question is valid: why spend the effort optimizing a strategy that's doomed to obsolescence from the outset? To that, I have no answer. Delaying the inevitable, maybe.
But it's not, and the 3.PF patches on this issue only come into play well after combat has ceased to resemble fistfights.
Yeah, I can see that. Even for an equivalent effect (quickened blindness), we're looking at 11th level and 1 feat (Quicken Spell) vs. 15th level and 2 feats (Critical Focus, Blinding Critical) -- and there are much better things to do with a 6th level spell than that (never mind an 8th level spell!), vs. very few worthwhile feat effects at that level. It's presented from the ground up as a bad deal, unless you can reliably get it to activate earlier (i.e., at lower levels), and more often -- certainly more often than an 18-20 weapon allows. But, like I said, that's one of the few bones that melees have been thrown.
Except that Keen Edge is a great spell to stack on.
When you critical it doubles almost all of your damage.
PA for 9 damage? That's 18~27~36 damage on the crit.
Greater Magic Weapon for 3? That's 6~9~12 damage on the crit.
Strength bonus for 6? Again 12~18~24 damage on the crit.
All together? That's 36~54~72 damage on the crit, as opposed to 18 if it doesn't crit.
So by itself it has use, when you remember what a crit does it gets nicer, and if you have other things in place it is great. No so much for the rogue maybe, but for a fighter that has straight damage added that does get multiplied, or for the barbarian in the same boot (paladin's too with the new smite evil) it can really add up.
If you consider that with a Falchion and Keen Edge you'll critical on average 1 time out of 5 swings that hit as opposed to 1 time out of 10 swings that hit it adds up. In addition to the amount of money saved by not magicking up the weapon which only affects that weapon, or the feat spent which only affects one type of weapon, earlier than anyone else can use it, I would say it sits in the right spot.
Except that +2 weapon with a spell cast on it to help it critical even more is that much better than the simple +2 weapon.
Also Greater Magic weapon is good, Greater Magic Weapon with Keen Edge as a chaser is better right?
Or are you saying that Keen Edge makes you worse for having it and you are completely better off without it?
Except that Keen Edge is a great spell to stack on.Basically, no, it isn't. I could dig up or re-do the math, but a +2 scimitar or a +2 scythe is more damage in the hands of a Power-Attacking attacker than a +1 keen scimitar or +1 keen scythe except at a very narrow band of high-but-not-extremely-high AC where Keen is very marginally better (on the order of less than 5% better).
Allow me:
18 Str (+4) melee combatant Power Attacking (-4 attack roll/+4 damage) with a +2 scimitar (1d6, 18-20/x2). Average damage per hit = (3.5 (weapon) + 2 (enhancement) + 4 (Str) + 4 (Power Attack)) * 1.15 (assuming 50% chance of a successful hit/critical confirmation; 3 hits in 10 threaten, half confirmed for an extra 100% damage) = 13.5 * 1.15 = 15.525 (average damage per attack = 7.7625).
18 Str (+4) melee combatant Power Attacking (-4 attack roll/+4 damage) with a +1 keen scimitar (1d6, 15-20/x2). Average damage per hit = (3.5 (weapon) + 1 (enhancement) + 4 (Str) + 4 (Power Attack)) * 1.3 (assuming 45% chance of a successful hit/critical confirmation; 6 hits in 9 threaten, 45% confirmed for an extra 100% damage) = 12.5 * 1.3 = 16.25 (average damage per attack = 7.3125).
18 Str (+4) melee combatant Power Attacking (-4 attack roll/+4 damage) with a +2 scimitar under the effect of the keen edge spell or Improved Critical feat (1d6, 15-20/x2). Average damage per hit = (3.5 (weapon) + 2 (enhancement) + 4 (Str) + 4 (Power Attack)) * 1.3 (assuming 50% chance of a successful hit/critical confirmation; 6 hits in 10 threaten, half confirmed for an extra 100% damage) = 13.5 * 1.3 = 17.55 (average damage per attack = 8.775).
18 Str (+4) melee combatant Power Attacking (-4 attack roll/+4 damage) with a +2 scythe (2d4, 20/x4). Average damage per hit = (5 (weapon) + 2 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) + 8 (Power Attack)) * 1.15 (assuming 50% chance of a successful hit/critical confirmation; 1 hit in 10 threatens, half confirmed for an extra 300% damage) = 21 * 1.15 = 24.15 (average damage per attack 12.075).
18 Str (+4) melee combatant Power Attacking (-4 attack roll/+4 damage) with a +1 keen scythe (2d4, 19-20/x4). Average damage per hit = (5 (weapon) + 1 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) + 8 (Power Attack)) * 1.3 (assuming 45% chance of a successful hit/critical confirmation; 2 hits in 9 threaten, 45% confirmed for an extra 300% damage) = 20 * 1.3 = 26 (average damage per attack 11.7).
18 Str (+4) melee combatant Power Attacking (-4 attack roll/+4 damage) with a +2 scythe under the effect of the keen edge spell or Improved Critical feat (2d4, 19-20/x4). Average damage per hit = (5 (weapon) + 2 (enhancement) + 6 (Str) + 8 (Power Attack)) * 1.3 (assuming 50% chance of a successful hit/critical confirmation; 2 hits in 10 threaten, half confirmed for an extra 300% damage) = 21 * 1.3 = 27.3 (average damage per attack 13.65).
When talking about low total bonuses to the damage rolls, yes, a keen enchantment is not worth it. However, the keen edge spell grants a noticeable benefit. Note that the advantage in average damage for using a keen weapon (like the keen edge spell) increases as the bonuses to base weapon damage get higher (as shown with the Power Attacking scythe) and as the chance of a successful hit increases (i.e., a 75% vs. 70% hit/confirmation chance with the scythe examples above would result in an average damage per attack of 18.1125, 18.2, and 20.475 respectively); eventually it surpasses the benefit of an extra +1 on attacks and damage rolls (granted, Improved Critical or the keen edge spell are often better choices from a resource management standpoint). Also note that Improved Critical and keen effects are less effective when the roll needed to hit is higher than the minimum to threaten a critical (for example, a 5% hit/confirmation chance for a x4 weapon results in an average damage per hit multiplier of 1.15, regardless of the threat range); basically, the lessened chance of confirmation dilutes the benefit of the increased threat range.
I'd like to expand on my above post, as I never thought I'd see one of my preferred spells get such a pasting. I know this thread is more mechanics based, but here is one of the things I like, in a more woolly, less optimized world.
Keen Edge comes into play before critical feats and the kinda cash you need to make or buy a super-sword. As a wizard then, I can offer my friends something they don't already have. I can turn to a fighting class character and, in character, say something like
Being as the a Magic Weapon spell likely won't have any beneficial effect if they have already invested in a +X sword, it is nice to have another option to offer my party members. I know that the enhancing spells such as Bull's Strength are statistically more beneficial, but, as in the case of the +X sword, the fighting character is likely to have already quaffed a potion or similar. Also, spells like Fireball aren't always an option, potentially hurting team-mates.
Keen Edge is just another option for the wizard to use to help out. And really, as a fighting character, if the wizard offers you a beneficial spell, you're not likely to know what it does, or even care, it is just nice to know that once again, the magic user is helping out.
Peace,
tfad
So, you're saying the spell is only useful from 5th level (when the wizard gets it) until 8th (when the fighter gets Improved Critical)? That's a fairly narrow range of usefulness.
So, you're saying the spell is only useful from 5th level (when the wizard gets it) until 8th (when the fighter gets Improved Critical)? That's a fairly narrow range of usefulness.
Not at all. I was just trying to show another way in which the spell is good. Like I posted above, twice, I like this spell and was just trying to defend it.
This is where I bow out.
Peace,
tfad
Like I posted above, twice, I like this spell and was just trying to defend it.
I like it, too. I just hate 10 min./lvl and 1 min./lvl durations. I wish everything were 1 round/lvl (i.e., "encounter") or 1 hour/lvl ("daily"), even though that preference might get me branded a secret 4e sympathizer.
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Like I posted above, twice, I like this spell and was just trying to defend it.I like it, too. I just hate 10 min./lvl and 1 min./lvl durations. I wish everything were 1 round/lvl (i.e., "encounter") or 1 hour/lvl ("daily"), even though that preference might get me branded a secret 4e sympathizer.
A secret 4E sympathiser! Quick, get the rope!!!
