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Per RAW, can you disarm a shield? If you succeed by 10 or more, can you disarm both the main weapon and a shield? I don't see why not but I was told that I couldn't do it "just like that" (with a disarm CM succeeding by 10 or more over the CMD). Sounds weird to me. This isn't about going over a GM's ruling in his campaign (which it isn't anyway), this is about finding out what the RAW say.
Per RAW, can you disarm a shield?
Yes
If you succeed by 10 or more, can you disarm both the main weapon and a shield?
Yes
If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands). If your attack exceeds the CMD of the target by 10 or more, the target drops the items it is carrying in both hands (maximum two items if the target has more than two hands).
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You can not disarm a shield. Pathfinder only allows you to disarm items that are wielded or carried and a shield is neither wielded nor carried it is worn. In 3.5 you could use disarm to remove worn items so long as they were loosely secured but I am not sure that a shield would be thought of as loosely secured even if Pathfinder had retained that interpretation of disarm.
If you want to remove an opponent’s shield you need to sunder it. Recall that sunder does not have to destroy an item but can simply disable it so that it is unusable until repaired. In this case your sunder would break the straps that hold the shield in place without otherwise ruining the shield. If you repair those straps that shield is usable again.
You can not disarm a shield. Pathfinder only allows you to disarm items that are wielded or carried and a shield is neither wielded nor carried it is worn. In 3.5 you could use disarm to remove worn items so long as they were loosely secured but I am not sure that a shield would be thought of as loosely secured even if Pathfinder had retained that interpretation of disarm.
If you want to remove an opponent’s shield you need to sunder it. Recall that sunder does not have to destroy an item but can simply disable it so that it is unusable until repaired. In this case your sunder would break the straps that hold the shield in place without otherwise ruining the shield. If you repair those straps that shield is usable again.
So I could theoretically make a character invulnerable to disarm CMs by using armor spikes and a shield? I could even go TWF with that?
You can not disarm a shield. Pathfinder only allows you to disarm items that are wielded or carried and a shield is neither wielded nor carried it is worn. In 3.5 you could use disarm to remove worn items so long as they were loosely secured but I am not sure that a shield would be thought of as loosely secured even if Pathfinder had retained that interpretation of disarm.
If you want to remove an opponent’s shield you need to sunder it. Recall that sunder does not have to destroy an item but can simply disable it so that it is unusable until repaired. In this case your sunder would break the straps that hold the shield in place without otherwise ruining the shield. If you repair those straps that shield is usable again.
Hmmm. . .
Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
Carrying an item versus having an item strapped to your arm is a questionable difference. It should be possible to dislodge a shield strapped to someone's arm. The strap can only be so powerful, and with heavy/tower shields, the shield hand is being used to literally carry the shield. However, is it more difficult to break the straps on someone's arm or to knock a weapon out of someone's clenched hand?
I don't think the rules are clear on this, but I'd err in favor of the more general interpretation (you can disarm a shield or weapon). Note that only specific weapons in the equipment section are marked as being non-disarmable. Since shields can be used as a weapon , it makes sense that you could disarm them (discounting armor spikes, which are technically a part of worn armor).
So I could theoretically make a character invulnerable to disarm CMs by using armor spikes and a shield? I could even go TWF with that?
Armor spikes can't be disarmed since armor isn't carried in any sense of the word.
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I would say that armor spikes are immune to disamrming, I disagree about the shield though.
but even if you do go with shields being undisarmable just remember, if you're going to twf with a shield only unspiked light shields count as light off hand weapons. If you get any variation of spiked shield you have to fight with the -4 TWF penalty in pathfinder, so even if you are immune to disarm, at least there's a decent drawback if you want your shield to be in any way significant.
I would say that armor spikes are immune to disamrming, I disagree about the shield though.
but even if you do go with shields being undisarmable just remember, if you're going to twf with a shield only unspiked light shields count as light off hand weapons. If you get any variation of spiked shield you have to fight with the -4 TWF penalty in pathfinder, so even if you are immune to disarm, at least there's a decent drawback if you want your shield to be in any way significant.
Spiked light shields appear in the light weapon list, so I don't understand.
I understand though that bashing with a shield makes it an off-hand weapon, even though in this case we'd want to use it as the main weapon (armor spikes are light weapons).
I would home rule that shields are like locked gauntlets, so they give a +10 bonus against disarm attempts.
Maybe we will have an official answer on this.
I would home rule that shields are like locked gauntlets, so they give a +10 bonus against disarm attempts.
Maybe we will have an official answer on this.
Given that most shields have both a wrist strap and hand grip, I think treating them as locked gauntlets is a good houserule. However, I would treat bucklers as weapons. Despite how Pathfinder describes them, bucklers were typically handheld and not strapped on. Even if you went with the strapped on version, they are small and lightweight compared to shields and could be twisted or knocked out of place, effectively disarming them.
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... this is about finding out what the RAW say.
If you go RAW a shield can be disarmed, as it is also a weapon.
You can however argue that it should be considerably more difficult.But really... what kind of sissy-girl disarms a shield. Thats what you have sunder for. WRAAAGH!
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Shield Bash Attacks:(pg. 152)
Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
Both shields also specifically say they are STRAPPED TO YOUR FOREARM & GRIPPED WITH YOUR HAND, at best I'd say you could use Disarm to REMOVE SHIELD AC for that turn. Otherwise it's armor strapped onto the person and needs to be Sundered.
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This reminds me of another relatively recent thread...
Monks and Locked Gauntlets The debate here being, can monks proficient with gauntlets actually use them WITHOUT class penalties, because they are pieces of armor.
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I would say that armor spikes are immune to disamrming, I disagree about the shield though.
but even if you do go with shields being undisarmable just remember, if you're going to twf with a shield only unspiked light shields count as light off hand weapons. If you get any variation of spiked shield you have to fight with the -4 TWF penalty in pathfinder, so even if you are immune to disarm, at least there's a decent drawback if you want your shield to be in any way significant.
Spiked light shields appear in the light weapon list, so I don't understand.
I understand though that bashing with a shield makes it an off-hand weapon, even though in this case we'd want to use it as the main weapon (armor spikes are light weapons).
my brian must be malfunctioning, I swear I looked at that chart and triple checked when I couldn't find spiked shield light in the light armor category, but now I go back and look and there it is, right where I'd expect to see it, aparently I was high on crack that day and somehow didn't see it even though I looked more than once. That being the case then heck yes you should be able to disarm the shield.
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Shield Bash Attacks:(pg. 152)
Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
Both shields also specifically say they are STRAPPED TO YOUR FOREARM & GRIPPED WITH YOUR HAND, at best I'd say you could use Disarm to REMOVE SHIELD AC for that turn. Otherwise it's armor strapped onto the person and needs to be Sundered.
----------------------------------------------This reminds me of another relatively recent thread...
Monks and Locked Gauntlets The debate here being, can monks proficient with gauntlets actually use them WITHOUT class penalties, because they are pieces of armor.
I agree with Daniel 100% on this. I have had a character in one game tie a leather strap round his sword and tied onto his bracer on his armor. this effectively allowed him to use a move action to recover his weapon after a disarm attempt. The drawback was he had to spend a full round unstrapping it if he wanted to change weapons and couldnt utilise the quickdraw feat with that hand. in addition it was only effectively allowable with one-handed or light weapons. double weapons and two handed weapons (or one handed weapons used with 2 hands) suffered a -2 penalty to hit and damage because of the restrictive strap.
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Shield Ward (Ex): At 20th level, a shielded fighter gains evasion (as a rogue) while wielding a shield, and adds his shield bonus to his AC (not including enhancement bonuses) on Reflex saves and to his touch AC. In addition, his shield cannot be disarmed or sundered. This ability replaces weapon master.
The language used there makes it seem pretty clear that shields could otherwise be disarmed.
To get the benefit of a locked gauntlet with a shield, wouldn't you have to use a locked gauntlet with a shield? Then no nice quick swapping out for ye, but you sure are holding that shield.
I'd say yes, and agree with meabolex on this one.
I agree with Daniel 100% on this. I have had a character in one game tie a leather strap round his sword and tied onto his bracer on his armor. this effectively allowed him to use a move action to recover his weapon after a disarm attempt. The drawback was he had to spend a full round unstrapping it if he wanted to change weapons and couldnt utilise the quickdraw feat with that hand. in addition it was only effectively allowable with one-handed or light weapons. double weapons and two handed weapons (or one handed weapons used with 2 hands) suffered a -2 penalty to hit and damage because of the restrictive strap.Shield Bash Attacks:(pg. 152)
Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn.
Both shields also specifically say they are STRAPPED TO YOUR FOREARM & GRIPPED WITH YOUR HAND, at best I'd say you could use Disarm to REMOVE SHIELD AC for that turn. Otherwise it's armor strapped onto the person and needs to be Sundered.
----------------------------------------------This reminds me of another relatively recent thread...
Monks and Locked Gauntlets The debate here being, can monks proficient with gauntlets actually use them WITHOUT class penalties, because they are pieces of armor.
Great idea.
... this is about finding out what the RAW say.If you go RAW a shield can be disarmed, as it is also a weapon.
You can however argue that it should be considerably more difficult.But really... what kind of sissy-girl disarms a shield. Thats what you have sunder for. WRAAAGH!
Disarm can be great if they have plenty of shield feats (as with sunder). Do they pick it up and keep using it, or adapt in ways they are not used to?
Bonus points if you disarm the shield while unarmed, it is now in your hands, and then you use it to attack.
Or disarm both their shield and weapon, ally grapples them, you pick up the weapon and sneak attack/power attack them with their own shield!