Can a character using a 2 handed weapon make an off-hand attack with armor spikes?
If you make the spikes on armor or a shield magical would the total cost of the armor/shield and spikes count as one item or two separate items for organized play?
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Dan Turek wrote:
If you make the spikes on armor or a shield magical would the total cost of the armor/shield and spikes count as one item or two separate items for organized play?
I don't know the first one for sure, but I think the answer is yes.
To the later, they count as two:
PRD wrote:
Armor Spikes (scroll up it is under the banner)
An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
So, when we say that a fighter (or whoever) can use a 2-handed weapon and make off-hand attacks with armor spikes, do we mean he can "dual-wield" with them (a-la TWF) or just that, provided he has multiple attacks (most likely from a high BAB), he is free to use one with his weapon (presumably a polearm) and one with the spikes?
Alternate scenario: I have a heavy shield, spiked armor, and a longsword. Can I use the shield for AC (and not bash with it) while dual-wielding (with TWF) the sword and spikes? Thus using the shield for defense, spikes and sword for my attacks? Does this work? Would it work if I took Improved Unarmed Strike and was using the shield for AC, then cutting and kicking someone every round with TWF?
Cyrus Lanthier wrote: So, when we say that a fighter (or whoever) can use a 2-handed weapon and make off-hand attacks with armor spikes, do we mean he can "dual-wield" with them (a-la TWF) or just that, provided he has multiple attacks (most likely from a high BAB), he is free to use one with his weapon (presumably a polearm) and one with the spikes?
Alternate scenario: I have a heavy shield, spiked armor, and a longsword. Can I use the shield for AC (and not bash with it) while dual-wielding (with TWF) the sword and spikes? Thus using the shield for defense, spikes and sword for my attacks? Does this work? Would it work if I took Improved Unarmed Strike and was using the shield for AC, then cutting and kicking someone every round with TWF?
Yes, it all works.
That's amazing... And kinda broken, no?
But, for example, let's say I am two-handing a Greatsword, and using TWF to kick a goblin. I assume that the kick gets only 1/2 str bonus to damage. What about the Greatsword? It's being used in both hands, but, I am using an "off hand weapon" as well... What happens?
Also- say I am fighting with a Heavy Shield and Armor Spikes, while holding a one handed weapon (an axe, say) in my right hand. Now, during my action, I full attack shield/spikes, because, say, I have Shield Slam, and I don't want the greater TWF penalties for no light weapon. Can I take AoO's with my axe, since it is wielded even if I am not currently using it in my attack routine?
No, actually it's a poor combination. If you are not gaining an extra attack, you are not two weapon fighting. When you do two weapon fight, you get x1 str for primary, and x.5 for off-hand.
So, even if it's a greatsword, it would only be x1 str for the primary (despite it's being held in two hands). That is in line with my intuitions, for some reason. But the Axe/Spikes with shield for AC seems pretty legit, especially if you don't want to sink feats into the (admittedly awesome) shield tree.
Two handing a one handed shield is how to optimally fight with a shield.
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Hilarious. Though, Paladins like to dual-wield, more smite damage. That said, am I the only person who thinks that the TWF chain has ludicrously high DEX requirements? Like, unreasonably high...
Cyrus Lanthier wrote: Also- say I am fighting with a Heavy Shield and Armor Spikes, while holding a one handed weapon (an axe, say) in my right hand. Now, during my action, I full attack shield/spikes, because, say, I have Shield Slam, and I don't want the greater TWF penalties for no light weapon. Can I take AoO's with my axe, since it is wielded even if I am not currently using it in my attack routine? Yep. You could also take an AoO with an (improved) unarmed strike, or a bite (if you have one) or any other weapon you're wielding.
The AoO is completely separate and unrelated to your full-attack and/or TWF.
-edit-
And if you wanted to take the AoO with your armor spikes or shield, you would not take any TWF penalties on the AoO. For example, something has a readied action that provokes in the middle of your TWF full attack. You get to take that AoO with anything you're wielding at full BAB. Even if you're TWF, those TWF penalties don't apply to the AoO.
Cyrus Lanthier wrote: Hilarious. Though, Paladins like to dual-wield, more smite damage. That said, am I the only person who thinks that the TWF chain has ludicrously high DEX requirements? Like, unreasonably high... You're not the only one. I think whoever came up with the feat chain originally had in their head the idea of dual-wielding two scimitars, or a longsword and shortsword, or something like that. Those do require a tremendous amount of finesse and coordination, and probably should have high dex requirements.
But when you're talking about your weapons being sword and board, or sword and elbow strike, or two hammers, those things are significantly easier from a dex perspective.
Grick wrote:
And if you wanted to take the AoO with your armor spikes or shield, you would not take any TWF penalties on the AoO. For example, something has a readied action that provokes in the middle of your TWF full attack. You get to take that AoO with anything you're wielding at full BAB. Even if you're TWF, those TWF penalties don't apply to the AoO.
Good to know that the TWF penalty doesn't apply to AoO's. If you use a weapon that wasn't part of the attack routine, does it get the full 1x str bonus, in that case?
Exocrat wrote:
You're not the only one. I think whoever came up with the feat chain originally had in their head the idea of dual-wielding two scimitars, or a longsword and shortsword, or something like that. Those do require a tremendous amount of finesse and coordination, and probably should have high dex requirements.
But when you're talking about your weapons being sword and board, or sword and elbow strike, or two hammers, those things are significantly easier from a dex perspective.
Has Paizo put out any alternate feats (I am thinking a restricted TWF that lacks or reduces the DEX requirements) that might make this more workable?
Cyrus Lanthier wrote:
Good to know that the TWF penalty doesn't apply to AoO's. If you use a weapon that wasn't part of the attack routine, does it get the full 1x str bonus, in that case?
It gets it's normal bonus, whatever that might be.
The only time in which you do .5x str bonus is when you are making a secondary natural attack, or the extra attacks granted via TWF.
To whit you could attack with sword and dagger using TWF. Get an extra attack with your dagger doing .5x STR bonus. On an AOO you could elect to take it with the dagger. You would not get the -2 (or worse) from TWF (as you're not as this point) nor would you only get .5 x STR bonus. Rather you would make an attack as if you had a standard action attack available and elected to take it with the dagger.
People confuse what is and what isn't TWF. The example above with sword and dagger could via iterative attacks elect to attack with the sword (BAB6) and then the dagger (BAB1) and NOT be using TWF. In fact at BAB11 (or BAB6 hasted) one could make iterative attacks with 3 different weapons and not be doing anything special, not TWFing, etc.
-James
I am firmly behind James' assessment of TWF vs Iterative Attacks. Please see this Paizo Designer FAQ if you have more questions on the subject: located here
The answers to the economic questions of Armor Spikes have been answered by Galnorag.
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