So I started with 1e/2e hybrid than moved onto 3rd. Got tired of 3rd to wards the end cause it just became about splat books it seemed. Went to 4e good disgusted and fled back to 2e. Right now I am running a dark sun 2e campaign, and when this one has it's course I am thinking about trying out pathfinder. I want to run it in Athas, so what 3.x books should I be buying in order to convert over? Is this too much work?
Any ones thoughts would help.
So I started with 1e/2e hybrid than moved onto 3rd. Got tired of 3rd to wards the end cause it just became about splat books it seemed. Went to 4e good disgusted and fled back to 2e. Right now I am running a dark sun 2e campaign, and when this one has it's course I am thinking about trying out pathfinder. I want to run it in Athas, so what 3.x books should I be buying in order to convert over? Is this too much work?
Any ones thoughts would help.
Any gaming system will have its pro's and con's and some work better for different types of people and the games they enjoy. I think the first question you need to answer is why you keep returning to the 1e/2e hybrid. Is it due to the mechanics? The ability for the system to be used in RPing? Obviously, if you keep trying out other systems, that it's probably not fulfilling all of these needs. Without understanding what you did and didn't like about the editions you've used, its hard to say whether or not Pathfinder would be right for you.
I've tried out pretty much everything beyond 1st edition and I've found each of them to have their own special nuances.
You're going to need Sandstorm for environmental rules, Expanded Psionics Handbook for Thri-Kreen and Gith. (I would recommend ignoring the XPH Half-Giant in favor of Ogre.) You're on your own for Preserving/Defiling rules, but there's an issue or two of Dragon that tried to convert elements of Dark Sun to 3e.
Also, you can do very well with the standard Cleric, but I'd recommend picking up Complete Divine for the Shugenja class-- as written, it's incredibly weak for Pathfinder, but if you use the Shugenja spell list and progression with the Cleric Domains and Channel Energy, you've got a better Elemental Cleric in my opinion.
I like 1e/2e cause it is fast. Other than the nightmare at times of making adventures. The whole umm how powerful is this monster really? Also the whole some times you roll high and some times you roll low makes it hard to teach new players.
What bugged me the most about 3e was when I got back into dnd. I played 3e for about two years. I thought it was awesome. That it seemed to address allot of issues that 2e had. Than I stopped playing for about three years and get back in and it seemed like a game of just getting the right feats and stuff to max your character out. Also 3e combat seemed to take forever as had to dig through books looking up info.
So after 4e(no comment) I went back to 1e/2e.
You know, if it makes the life difficult for you, you can disallow splatbook or limit its usage. Like one feat per character from a splatbook, or only one spell per spell level from splat book.
Or a really good reason to take a PRC from a splatbook.
I hate saying NO to players
But yeah I agree
and running Athas I have some good reasons to say no to some core classes/races, let alone some of the more exotic ones or strange ones.
I ordered my pathfinder and am looking forward to reading it. At least it is really F'N pretty.
and yeah that is a good idea to limit things.
|
It it was the amount of splat books that put you off 3rd edition then using Pathfinder won't help with this problem.
Just use your old 3rd ed books and limit the splat books - I would only suggest getting Pathfinder if you feel there are problems with 3rd ed that PF specifically addresses, or you want to play a system where you can get a copy of the core rulebooks easily (although even for PF that may be tough at present).
Pathfinder has addressed a lot of the issues that 3.0 and 3.5 had (in my opinion, but less so for others).
The changes to skills is brilliant and makes players less inclined to start with a level dip in Rogue at 1st level.
They have tried to make all core classes interesting to play to 20th level.
There has been a slight power increase in general (which some really don't like), but seems to be fairly well balanced.
From what I can tell, we will not see a proliferation of splat books from Paizo (their main money maker is the AP line, not the RPG line).
I have limited splat book access in my current game. That is, the players have to justify getting feats and such from splat books (the rogue is currently trying to be a more devout follower of Desna, to get an Exhalted Feat, which is leading to amusing situations and role play).
In my world, PrC organizations do not train someone who has started another PrC but not completed it - they will not give out their secrets to someone who will likely not stay the full course. There also has to be role play reasons why the character wants to join, not just because it would make their character better at xxxx.
Agreed. If you are bothered by having too much options... Pathfinder is no better or worse than 3.0 or 3.5 in that case. However there are some very nice "streamlined" rules.
I personally would rather have too many options than not enough. However... that being said you can easily make or shape the flavor of a campaign by what books you allow players to choose from.
One game... I decided I wanted to see how the various base classes from the splatbooks compared to each other. I ran a campaign where I limited the characters to non-core classes. (I.E. - No PHB classes)
For a desert campaign you could limit players to Sandstorm and PHB only for another example.
|
A friend of mine was telling me how one of his regular groups rid themselves of the splatbook problem.
The DM allows players to use Splatbooks, but they have to chose which they wish to use. They get to pick one book at levels 1, 4, 7, and 12 (if I remember correctly). This is the book they can draw from for everything from magic items, spells, PrCs, and feats.
So for example I make a wizard.
At level 1 I get the Player's Handbook, but I want something cool out of PH2. That's my level 1 book. At level 4 I feel like I'm beginning to lag behind on spells, so I pick up the spell compendium as my level 4 book. At level 7 I want to branch into a prestige class, so I grab the Complete Mage for that. And at 12 I realize that I'm missing out on an awesome magic item so I take access to the Magic Item Compendium.
It's not an ideal fix, but it lets players use the materials without only grabbing the most awesome stuff out of every book. I guess the entire group really likes the concept as they get some of the stuff they want, but not tons of it (and the DM isn't spending days working through adjudicating all the different sources).
Just an idea.
Like the others said, most of what you want to do with Dark Sun can be accomplished with the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, the Expanded Psi Book, Sandstorm, and the Dragon articles. (You might also find Athas.org useful.)
AS for the splat books, as a GM, I normally just tell the players that I'll decide which books we will use, or what part. There's nothing wrong with telling the players that you want to keep it simple and focus on the role-playing instead of the power-gaming. (One thing a lot of the splat books do is give you rules that require you to have a feat to do things you just role-played/ wingedit before). If I own a splat book and someone describes a charater idea and I think something in the book is balanced and fits, then I will offer it to the player. But I don't just allow stuff from other sources willy nilly.
Also, cherry picking the other books for stuff you want is a great way to introduce rare spells and abilities to the game. (I'm running an online Eberron Campaign right now and only the spells from the PHB/ PFRPG are available to characters initially. But they have found a few spells and infusions from other splatbooks in enemy spellbooks, old scrolls, etc. Gaing some of these lost/new spells have even been a plot point.)
In other words, you can make them work for the non-standard stuff. If they want a prestige class or new class, amke them find someone and take the time to train.
Or just say no. (Personally, I disallow most new prestige classes in my games, but that's a pet-peeve of mine.)
Good luck
A friend of mine was telling me how one of his regular groups rid themselves of the splatbook problem.
The DM allows players to use Splatbooks, but they have to chose which they wish to use. They get to pick one book at levels 1, 4, 7, and 12 (if I remember correctly). This is the book they can draw from for everything from magic items, spells, PrCs, and feats.
So for example I make a wizard.
At level 1 I get the Player's Handbook, but I want something cool out of PH2. That's my level 1 book. At level 4 I feel like I'm beginning to lag behind on spells, so I pick up the spell compendium as my level 4 book. At level 7 I want to branch into a prestige class, so I grab the Complete Mage for that. And at 12 I realize that I'm missing out on an awesome magic item so I take access to the Magic Item Compendium.
It's not an ideal fix, but it lets players use the materials without only grabbing the most awesome stuff out of every book. I guess the entire group really likes the concept as they get some of the stuff they want, but not tons of it (and the DM isn't spending days working through adjudicating all the different sources).
Just an idea.
Actually, that's a pretty cool idea too!
Oh, and I would make them own the book themselves. (No DL PDFs from free/ illegal sites- make them actually support the industry.)...if they can't bring a copy of the book each week for you to review, they don't get the abilites... (Some gamers cna be cheap.)
I ordered the pathfinder core book tonight. Spent allot of time reading reviews and reading over the beta. Seems like an awesome product in terms of art and lay out alone. I am a huge art fan, one of the reasons I am still in love with DS is the Broom art. Also got a copy of sandstorm the EPHB. Downloaded as much as I could from athas.org and am now hoping they put some updated rules for bards, glads and the psionic classes. Still got like more than six months planned of 2e than I will give 3.x another shoot.
Wish me look...
back to designing a village of cannibalistic halflings
|
I hate saying NO to players
Oh, I love saying NO to players. In fact, at one point I was looking for a big neon sign that said NO that I cold hang behind me and turn on for games.
(before you jump on me, I don't toss out NO arbitrarilly, I just happen to get a perverse pleasure when I get to smack down someones attempt at 'creative rules interpretation'.)
I do not understand why DM have problems with players that want to use splatbooks a lot.
The way I see it, it is easy. Being DM is often a hard job (especially if you never run premade adventures like me), and there are many more players then DMs. So to keep being a DM and keep bringing adventures to players DM has to have fun and his job must be as easy as possible. If to a certain DM splatbooks represent problems and he knows he will have an easier time and more fun without them then do not let the players use them. And tell that to the players.
Unless they are jerks (which you should not play with anyways) they will understand.
If they do not, then you can give them two options:
1. "My way or the highway."
2. "Be a DM and use as many splatbooks for your NPCs in your campaign. And I will play and use them as well."
Players just do not appreciate the amount of work and energy DMs have to use for them to just show up there once per week, play something for a few hours and go home while the DM has to do the same kind of work for the next time. Players at least have to honor DMs wishes if those things make his life easier.
But DMs need to openly say so, and not expect players to read his mind.
As I player I have many times got angry when the DM would invent rules and barriers without any explanations.
I am looking forward to the 2010 dark sun. If only to have the fluff mostly in one place(if they do not retcon the whole world) and have some cool new DS art.
|
|
I agree with much of what others have already said on this thread but for me variety of options and books keeps me interested. I too would rather have too many options rather than not enough.
My advice, use what you like, ignore the rest. Personally i love Pathfinder and looking at some of the books they are going to release i can't wait.
Bottom line i suppose is that if you didn't like 3.5 you probably won't like Pathfinder. The adventure paths are a joy to read, play and run so if your limited on time and find it difficult to write your own scenario's then i would definately reccommend those.
I am looking forward to the 2010 dark sun. If only to have the fluff mostly in one place(if they do not retcon the whole world) and have some cool new DS art.
Let's just hope that the changes won't be radical... Forgotten realms 4E anyone?
I am of the mind of that 4e forgotten realms was a bad dream....
I was looking at the APs they down and they might draw me out of the burnt world of Athas.
I had burnt offerings on my shelf for ever and never read it. I read and ran the start of it yesterday for fun and another shot at 3.5 and test the changes Pathfinder mad. Tell you what, that APs was so easy to run and so well written.
If you are looking to pick up the two most recently completed APs, you might check on eBay. Jason Beardsley of these boards is selling both of his paper copies (LoF and SD) and you might be able to pick up another one or two at a steal. They both look good (have only read, not run), but LoF blew my mind.
If you are looking to pick up the two most recently completed APs, you might check on eBay. Jason Beardsley of these boards is selling both of his paper copies (LoF and SD) and you might be able to pick up another one or two at a steal. They both look good (have only read, not run), but LoF blew my mind.
checking right now. thanks
I did the edition dance from D&D -> AD&D -> 2nd Ed -> 3rd Ed -> 3.5 -> Pathfinder
I have an entire shelf of splat books and nearly everything that WOTC put out but this time I have asked the players to put the splat books down. I tell them if they have a feat or class that they have their heart set on I will look it over make any adjustments I feel are needed and show them.
After I have approved/disapproved/modded a feat or class I feel more comfortable with it. There are so many broken things out there (looking at you Abjurant Cheesemaster) it is silly to open yourself up to being blind sided.
Some of the feats from the splat books are decidedly underpowered so don't show up in "optimized" builds. I tell my players that if they want me to look at those I will try to bring them into line with other powers and feats. Like my rewrite of the luck feats
Players just do not appreciate the amount of work and energy DMs have to use for them to just show up there once per week, play something for a few hours and go home while the DM has to do the same kind of work for the next time. Players at least have to honor DMs wishes if those things make his life easier.
I think this is a biased that 'permenant' or consistent dms have really over stated. Most experienced players know exactly how much work goes into making a game. Most have run their own. Everyone in my group works with our dm (which varies depending on the game), both on world creation such as fleshing out regions, organizations, creating npcs, encounter design etc. If a dm feels overworked, he/she should either ask for help, or take a break. There are plenty of ways the players in your group can ease your burdeon without giving away story elements or ruining surprises. The dm is an island un to himself model is a poor one, and leads to the whole my way or the highway nonsesne.
I think many dms fail to remember they are not running 'their game', they are HOSTING thier game. As host your guests (read players) wishes and desires matter. If you have a group full of optimizers, then constantly saying NO will only create resentment, and for them to try harder to circumvent you. DM's that fear party members using more potent or unusual abilities seem to me to be unwilling to do the work they should already be doing. When I run games, I tailor things to my party, (and in addition expect them to give me a rundown of their character build, abilities personality and goals ahead of time). With that information in hand, very little is not managable in terms of character abilities. Just make sure you have elements to deal with the various characters in your encounters (be they role play or roll play). I think dms that fear the game 'getting away from them' aren't putting in the work in the first place to design interesting encounters tailored to their party. After all we have all been playing 3.x for years, to ban splatbooks in general or highly restrict them is nonsense. Players want to do things they havent done before, that pretty much requires additional character options doesnt it?
Should you allow everything under the sun? no, exceptions are always there, like the problematic polymorph of 3.5, or some of the stuff out of frostburn (i think thats where that dragon killing 3d6 dex damage touch spell was) or the first level wild mage ability coupled with practiced spellcaster. But you should sit down with your players and talk about what they want to accomplish with their characters. My personal belief is they shouldn't have to justify why they should be able to use a certain option, it should be the other way around.