|
You answered your own question. The Deity of Fire speaks for fire. And the Deity of Fire makes its will known by high-jacking some poor sap's destiny and turning him into an oracle of the Deity of Fire.Ah, but a diety can speak for itself, and doesn't really need a mouthpiece. If Lamashtu wants her will to be known, Lamashtu damn well makes her will known.
But who speaks for Fire?
The 'diety of Fire' would be a neat answer, but Golarion doesn't have a specific 'diety of Fire.'
It has a few dieties that add Fire into their Domain list, but Asmodeus is the diety of tyranny, contracts, pride and slavery, *not* the diety of fire. He just happens to have Fire as a Domain. He's also got Magic as a Domain, but that's not really in his portfolio either, and Nethys is much more of a 'diety of magic' than Asmodeus will ever be.
Similarly, Sarenrae has Fire as a Domain choice, but is the goddess of sun, honesty, healing and redemption, not specifically 'fire.' (Although she's much closer to a 'fire god' than Asmodeus...)
The Forgotten Realms has specific elemental dieties (Grumbar, Istishia, Akadi and Kossuth), but Golarion, as of yet, doesn't.
The Oracle of Fire doesn't speak for Asmodeus. He doesn't speak for Sarenrae. Or Moloch, or Flauros, or Szuriel, or that Goblin demigod whose head is on fire. He speaks for Fire.
Anywho, it's just an idea for how the concept *could* work. Bear in mind I'm just rationalizing how an idea that doesn't, on the face of it, make sense, *could* make sense. The people at Paizo might have a completely different idea, and might have 'the Oracle of Strength' be a worshipper of any god that has Strength in their Domain list, like Urgathoa.
|
|
I am guessing the Iconics will again be half male and half female so that just leaves races. I'm fairly certain that half-orc was one of them. So I am curious on whether they will be making any of the other ones non human (wouldn't mind seeing a halfling or Gnome cavilear myself but could also see them using a tiefling or asemier. Course a Tengu one would really make my day.)
Okay, wait a minute... do Oracles receive their power by communicating directly with the immortal essence of their domain?
Check back later - Decemberish, maybe.
Because one of the more "distant" definitions of Oracle is one who communicates with divine spirits.
This is an appropriately susscint definition and colors a good bit of the current thinking.
I am guessing the Iconics will again be half male and half female so that just leaves races.
Makes sense.
I'm fairly certain that half-orc was one of them.
Also makes sense.
So I am curious on whether they will be making any of the other ones non human...
Also also makes sense.
(wouldn't mind seeing a halfling or Gnome cavilear myself but could also see them using a tiefling or asemier. Course a Tengu one would really make my day.)
And here you start losing me. But who knows!
Well, actually we know, but we're not telling till we have something to show off. No need to let loose the art critics on art that hasn't been created yet.
Why don't you guys just do a contest of some sorts "send in to us, Paizo, potential names for a class." Than make a large poll and let people vote for their favorite name, let them choose from between the 4 best names + the one you had in mind (Oracle).
Had seen a few websites/comapnies do simmilar stuff, works always and results are astonishing!!
PS: Personally, I also rather dislike the Oracle name, and pretty much everything mentioned here before sounds better...urg
I really don't reconcile the image of the word oracle with the definition of the class. I think that can be better terms for define the class.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
And everybody reading about an "Oracle" class would understand that. The name corresponds with the strengths of that class.
Why no, I wouldn't understand that.
(grin) Then, clearly, I stand corrected.
Trying to second guess what we've got planned based on a couple blog posts and a firestorm of messageboard posts ... isn't a very constructive way to tear apart new content that is still VERY much in conceptual stages. Once we reveal the class, if the name's still causing a lot of trouble and aggravation we'll listen to the complaints and concerns and make our decision then. Just try not to lose sight of the truth that even though we at Paizo are pretty open about our products with open playtests and the like, that's not the same as running the development and the design of the game as a democracy.
James, I haven't been paying attention; if there has been a firestorm of protests, I was unaware of that, and I regret jumping on top of the buck-buck pile. All I knew about was the blog posts.
Having said that, I stand by my concerns.
And I say this as someone who, after nine years, still rankles every time he hears the term feat used to mean something like "a knack, a talent, a special trick", instead of "an accomplishment".
|
Hmmm... Herald or Seer are the ones I like most on that list.Based on my prior list of alternatives, I like (so far) "Magus", "Envoy", and "Emissary", but really leaning towards Magus.
Even "Agent" would fit better, in my opinion.
Agreed, "herald" has an appropriate divine/regal overtone while also carrying the meaning of representative. Saying you are a "Herald of [thing]" does carry some meaning - you are bringing and spreading that [thing] to the world.
I can see how Incarnate may carry a fixed power conotation, you either are Incarnate or you are not. It's still a cool name, though. It may have as many problems as Oracle, but the isn't confusing when applied to more than one category.
In regards to some of the other terms, specifically Paragon and Examplar, Paizo has to be careful not to choose words that already have use in the D&D lexicon. "Paragon" reads "racial class" or "4th Edition", for example.
In response to James' comments:
By no means do I mean to harp on this...a couple posts shouldn't be construed as me shouting hate at the Oracle. I think what is dividing some of the anti-Oraclists (???) is the use of two terms out of antiquity: Oracle + Hercules. Oracle does actually have a loose image when used generally (the 'spirit-communer' is apt) but when attached to Greek antiquity it means something VERY specific (Delphi anyone?) and unfortunately using Hercules as an example strengthened that connection in my mind, and apparently others.
It doesn't sound confusing to say "I be Bloodfist the Mighty, the Oracle of Strength!"
It does sound confusing to say "Hercules is an Oracle..." Doesn't matter what comes next, because the reader already has a dichotomy.
I do think that this conversation is interesting, and I hope it continues for the benefit of the community. I don't think it is hostile, and if Paizo wants to check in occasionally for inspiration or a few laughs, that's great too!
|
|
Look, it's your game. You can call the class anything you please. "Fishmonger". (And, hey, when you say 'Fishmonger', people have a STRONG visual.) People will still play "Fishmongers of Fire" and, after six months, people playing Pathfinder will make whatever mental contortions they need, in order for "Fishmonger" to make sense as a 'exemplar of a domain'. But it'll be an uphill fight. Same with "Oracle".
Check out the recently opened Fishmonger Design Thread!
No ill-will intended.
Personally, I'm pretty dang excited to see what y'all do with the alchemist. Several v3.x publishers have tried to tackle this, and I've always had some misgivings about their results. And, I've always wanted a playable PC alchemist class, and have nearly bitten the bullet to design one myself. But since I REALLY like pert near everything from the Pathfinder series, I will hold off on those home-design plans to see what the great team at Paizo will come up with.
Sittin' on pins and needles, guys!!
Creative Director
|
I am guessing the Iconics will again be half male and half female so that just leaves races. I'm fairly certain that half-orc was one of them. So I am curious on whether they will be making any of the other ones non human (wouldn't mind seeing a halfling or Gnome cavilear myself but could also see them using a tiefling or asemier. Course a Tengu one would really make my day.)
We talked very briefly about making one a tengu, but decided against it. The races for these six come only from the Pathfinder Core RPG itsel.
|
Creative Director
|
Why don't you guys just do a contest of some sorts "send in to us, Paizo, potential names for a class." Than make a large poll and let people vote for their favorite name, let them choose from between the 4 best names + the one you had in mind (Oracle).
Had seen a few websites/comapnies do simmilar stuff, works always and results are astonishing!!
PS: Personally, I also rather dislike the Oracle name, and pretty much everything mentioned here before sounds better...urg
Because A) we don't have the time and resources to manage and sift through contest entries, and B) because we're not interested in design-by-committee. We'll certainly listen to feedback from customers and weigh that in the balance of our decisions, but for huge decisions like what to name our clases... that HAS to be something done in-house.
Folks worried about the oracle's name should take a deep breath and be patient. It makes little sense to get so bent out of shape over the name when all you have to go on for what the class actually does are a few blog posts.
Not got much to say, but wanted to say that I like the name oracle for the class. It brings to my mind a speaker of otherworldly powers, not all of them gods.
|
Creative Director
|
In addition to wanting a class name that immediately suggests an iconic appearance (which oracle does and few other suggestions do), we DO have to avoid picking a class name that's already used by the game. Even if that name's used by a closed content source. Let me look at some of those suggestions real quick.
Herald: Bad choice. This name is what we're using for the chosen CR 15 minions of the gods. Unique new monsters we've been statting up in Pathfinder since volume #5.
Seer: This name certainly evokes a specific image, and is probably one of the best alternatives... but it's so similar to the word "oracle" that it really has all of the same issues that folks are worked up about already. I'm not interested in changing the name to something SO similar, since that won't solve problems at all. Plus, I like the sound of "oracle" better than "seer." Oracle's just a better word of the two.
Incarnate: This word is a bit too vague. It doesn't immediately suggest an iconic character's appearance, which is and of itself a killer, but also, since it's so much more vague a word than oracle, it's a handy word to have around for other things. If we attach it to a specific class, we lose the ability to just use it as a descriptive word, similar to how we can't simply call a character a "warrior" without making it sound like he's got levels in an NPC class.
Paragon: This is already in use in the game as not only a racial class ability and has too many associations with 4th edition, but also is the name of an open-content epic level template. And the actual definition of the word itself isn't correct for what we want the class to do.
Avatar: Again... this is already used by the game. In 2nd edition, an avatar was a physical manifestation of a deity with incredible powers and lots of hit points. It's also already used by an open-content D20 book by Green Ronin to define a different class, and I don't want to steal the name from Green Ronin because their avatar class is different than the oracle, and interesting, and might some day be something we'd want to use in Pathfinder.
Aspect: Like avatar, this is already used by the game. It's the 3rd edition word for a physical manifestation of a deity, and as such it's even more inappropriate as a class name than Avatar.
So, since we need the class name to a) evoke a specific mental image; b) serve as an accurate description of what the class does and fit its flavor; c) not be a name that's already in heavy use in the game as something else; and d) not be a useful word that would serve the game better by simply remaining a word that we can use to describe things... oracle in my mind remains the obvious and strongest choice. Of course, I say that knowing a lot more about what we're going to be doing with the oracle, and because I've had a LOT longer to let the name sit in my head and get used to it than anyone outside of the Paizo editorial pit. Again, I ask folks to be patient and wait and see what the oracle class actually does when we playtest it before they get too much more worked-up.
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realise that the history of D&D is full of dubious names that grew on me after a while:
- fighter (or fighting-man) and magic-user - Are there two more uninspiring names than that?
- cleric and druid - Too culturally specific, in my opinion.
- thief - Isn't a thief just someone who steals stuff, regardless of class? (See also: fighter, assassin)
- ranger - Shamelessly stolen from Lord of the Rings, as far as I know.
- monk - If I had never played D&D, I would never, ever, ever associate the word "monk" with the D&D character class!
|
|
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realise that the history of D&D is full of dubious names that grew on me after a while:
- fighter (or fighting-man) and magic-user - Are there two more uninspiring names than that?
- cleric and druid - Too culturally specific, in my opinion.
- thief - Isn't a thief just someone who steals stuff, regardless of class? (See also: fighter, assassin)
- ranger - Shamelessly stolen from Lord of the Rings, as far as I know.
- monk - If I had never played D&D, I would never, ever, ever associate the word "monk" with the D&D character class!
Cleric and druid never bugged me for being culture-specific, as I wanted a western-fantasy setting. For the same reason, Monk drives me insane to this day. I ALWAYS picture the guys from Holy Grail doing flying-kicks and hitting people with books when I have a monk player.
|
Creative Director
|
James, I'm curious because I agree with your point that "incarnate" could become a "warrior" problem - what about "oracle"? Would all Oracles in Golarion be oracles? I can see that working.
Hmm. It also appears that I Ninja'd you on the lexicon argument.
Oracle is an obscure enough word with enough "generic" synonyms that I'm not too worried about stealing the word from other use. Prophet, seer, doomsayer, mystic, fortune-teller... there's plenty of choices there that do the job AND aren't as iconic in their words as "oracle." And we need to choose one of them as the name anyway... oracle, for us, has the right combination of accuracy in definition and obscurity in general everyday use that it does the job without stealing a word.
|
Creative Director
|
You know, the more I think about it, the more I realise that the history of D&D is full of dubious names that grew on me after a while:
- fighter (or fighting-man) and magic-user - Are there two more uninspiring names than that?
- cleric and druid - Too culturally specific, in my opinion.
- thief - Isn't a thief just someone who steals stuff, regardless of class? (See also: fighter, assassin)
- ranger - Shamelessly stolen from Lord of the Rings, as far as I know.
- monk - If I had never played D&D, I would never, ever, ever associate the word "monk" with the D&D character class!
Monk is an excellent example. Before D&D, this was a bald dude in a robe who illuminated and transcribed books and lived a religious life of simplicity. Not a kung-fu master. But today, it seems natural for the class.
Oracle's a MUCH better fit for what that class is going to do than monk was for what IT did. And the game works fine and folks are happy with the monk (with some likely exceptions of folks who do prefer the word to mean the bald religious book guy), so I'm pretty confident the oracle'll end up being just fine.
|
Creative Director
|
And of course Harrower!
Oracle is an obscure enough word with enough "generic" synonyms that I'm not too worried about stealing the word from other use. Prophet, seer, doomsayer, mystic, fortune-teller...
Yup! Although that's the name of a prestige class, so we can't really use it in a generic sort of way...
|
|
Yup! Although that's the name of a prestige class, so we can't really use it in a generic sort of way...And of course Harrower!
Oracle is an obscure enough word with enough "generic" synonyms that I'm not too worried about stealing the word from other use. Prophet, seer, doomsayer, mystic, fortune-teller...
Or as the name of a core class, that would be lunacy. ;)
Add me to the pile of LIKES oracle and looking forward to seeing what you give us :)
Mr. Jacobs, it looks like most people are okay with Oracle!
I think you're dying the death of 1000 papercuts here, with so many people chiming in you think we all hate it.
Yeah, I'm fine with oracle. As with many things, I think when people don't like something, they are more likely to voice their opinion, which is fine, and they should, but you always have to be careful then to figure out if you have a representative sample or not, at least if you are going to make a decision based on that information.
The only name from the announced new classes I'm not 100% sold on is Summoner, but it doesn't bother me if it does end up being the final.
|
Creative Director
|
Monk is an excellent example. Before D&D, this was a bald dude in a robe who illuminated and transcribed books and lived a religious life of simplicity. Not a kung-fu master. But today, it seems natural for the class.Tonsured, not bald.
Nah; it's the friar class who's tonsured. :-P
|
Monk is an excellent example. Before D&D, this was a bald dude in a robe who illuminated and transcribed books and lived a religious life of simplicity. Not a kung-fu master. But today, it seems natural for the class.
But but but ... what about David Carradine in the show Kung Fu?!?! I grew up with that show (even had a Kung Fu lunch box in elementary school) ... always thought of that version of a monk before I learned about the Western concept of a monk. Just some guy, wandering around, kicking butt and playing his walking stick flute.
But maybe that's just me ...
|
|
All in all, I really don't care what you end up calling the classes. As stated earlier in the thread, if the name doesn't feel right, I or the folks with whom I game will come up with an alternative.
It's the meat and potatoes of the class that I am far more interested in rather than the name.
Quite true. And so far I like the idea of a domain-focused divine character to accompany the cleric and priest into battle. Incidentally, I've been calling clerics "priests" in game for the entirety of 3rd Edition so I agree the name can change at the table.
|
I am guessing the Iconics will again be half male and half female so that just leaves races. I'm fairly certain that half-orc was one of them. So I am curious on whether they will be making any of the other ones non human (wouldn't mind seeing a halfling or Gnome cavilear myself but could also see them using a tiefling or asemier. Course a Tengu one would really make my day.)
OMG a Tengu iconic would be AWESOME! YES I VOTE FOR ONE TO BE TENGU!
|
|
I am guessing the Iconics will again be half male and half female so that just leaves races. I'm fairly certain that half-orc was one of them. So I am curious on whether they will be making any of the other ones non human (wouldn't mind seeing a halfling or Gnome cavilear myself but could also see them using a tiefling or asemier. Course a Tengu one would really make my day.)We talked very briefly about making one a tengu, but decided against it. The races for these six come only from the Pathfinder Core RPG itsel.
Oh come on James, PLEASE?!?!?!? I'll buy the staff pizza and beer! I'll even throw in some jalapeno poppers!
Seriously think of how COOL it would look! ALMOST as cool as a dwarf!
|
|
I'll be honest I'm fine with Oracle. Heck call it Uber PC Class for Nerds for all I care :)
BUT I am tired of looking at topics about the new classes and all I find is hate about the Oracle name.
Okay... we get it. You hate the name. They aren't changing it, you loose, drop it.
Now normally I seriously dislike adding new classes. I so hated what WOTC did so very often that it looked like a money grabbing ploy. Nearly everyone of the so-called core classes could have been built with multi-classing better.
I do admit that the ones announced so far, and the twists suggested, sound like they do in fact have a niche they can fit into.
Don't get me wrong, I would be happier if Bard, Ranger, Paladin were prestige classes than core classes, too. At least these new classes have a better thematic feel than we need an arcane skill monkey... I mean Bard???? Let's see, Shakespeare and the Bard from Monty Python (Brave Sir Robin bravely ran away) do not inspire me to play bards, nor do they seem overly good concepts for an adventurer. Okay, KISS or Ozzy as Bards, sure they could adventure... AXE GUITAR as an instrument AND weapon, breath weapons!
But a multi-colored tights wearing, bells dangling from hat wearing, lute playing, merry making BARD? He is SOOOO dead first time someone farts in his direction! The only thing worse would have been naming him MINSTREL!
And you guys complain about Oracle? C O M E O N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
Creative Director
|
An iconic tengu would be approximately 503,324 times as cool as a dwarf, in fact. That said... the tengu's hardly an iconic RACE to begin with, so we're no more likely to make an iconic character into a tengu then, say, a goblin or a boggard or a troll.
But that said, I suspect that there will indeed be an iconic tengu at some point. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. But I can't say WHEN this happy day will come to pass.
|
Creative Director
|
Alas, by badmouthing my favorite character class, the Bard, in practically the same breath you champion dwarves (my least favorite core race), you have inadvertantly eroded the chances of seeing an iconic tengu. Fortunately, I'm a big fan of tengus so in a day or two I shall forget this heinous slight against the awesomeness that is BARD and we'll be back to anticipating the eventual arrival of the iconic tengu.
|
|
An iconic tengu would be approximately 503,324 times as cool as a dwarf, in fact. That said... the tengu's hardly an iconic RACE to begin with, so we're no more likely to make an iconic character into a tengu then, say, a goblin or a boggard or a troll.
But that said, I suspect that there will indeed be an iconic tengu at some point. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. But I can't say WHEN this happy day will come to pass.
So you're also almost guaranteeing goblin, boggard and troll iconics? After all, those are apparently at least as likely... is this related to the rumors of new rules for monster PC races in the (probably quite distant) future?
|
Creative Director
|
So you're also almost guaranteeing goblin, boggard and troll iconics? After all, those are apparently at least as likely... is this related to the rumors of new rules for monster PC races in the (probably quite distant) future?An iconic tengu would be approximately 503,324 times as cool as a dwarf, in fact. That said... the tengu's hardly an iconic RACE to begin with, so we're no more likely to make an iconic character into a tengu then, say, a goblin or a boggard or a troll.
But that said, I suspect that there will indeed be an iconic tengu at some point. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. But I can't say WHEN this happy day will come to pass.
Nah, it's just related to the fact that I'd like to see an iconic goblin, tengu, boggard, and troll some day. :-)
Anyone else like that idea?
|
Creative Director
|
So... a goblin cavalier, a tengu oracle, a boggard summoner and a troll alchemist? I like it! :P
Nah, it's just related to the fact that I'd like to see an iconic goblin, tengu, boggard, and troll some day. :-)Anyone else like that idea?
We'll already have iconics for those base classes, so there's no need for more there. Goblins and tengus and boggards would be for something else.
|
|
I'll be honest I'm fine with Oracle. Heck call it Uber PC Class for Nerds for all I care :)
BUT I am tired of looking at topics about the new classes and all I find is hate about the Oracle name.
Okay... we get it. You hate the name. They aren't changing it, you loose, drop it.
I wasn't aware there were other threads dealing with the new classes. But some decent people checked into this one with some well-reasoned discussion, so I would hardly call it hate.
I've tinkered with the prestige ranger/bard/paladin before, so you get no complaints from me there.
At least these new classes have a better thematic feel than we need an arcane skill monkey... I mean Bard???? Let's see, Shakespeare and the Bard from Monty Python (Brave Sir Robin bravely ran away) do not inspire me to play bards, nor do they seem overly good concepts for an adventurer. Okay, KISS or Ozzy as Bards, sure they could adventure... AXE GUITAR as an instrument AND weapon, breath weapons!
But a multi-colored tights wearing, bells dangling from hat wearing, lute playing, merry making BARD? He is SOOOO dead first time someone farts in his direction! The only thing worse would have been naming him MINSTREL!
And you guys complain about Oracle? C O M E O N!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously you either never read Wheel of Time, or didn't care for Thom Merrilin? Also, I highly recommend the legend of Blondel the Minstrel.
|
I disliked the name "Oracle", but I am beginning to have reservations about my dislike now. I do not think I would say I "hated" it. I just thought there might be something that fits better, especially with the Hercules model provided. However, I am starting to come around.
For example, (as I pointed out in an earlier post), one meaning of an Oracle is one who communes with divine spirits. So, I applied that again to the Hercules model. Hercules as an Oracle of Strength made no sense to me at all, but Hercules as an Oracle of the Spirit of Strength.... Hmmm. Sounds a little more compelling.
I like the name Harbinger, but then again, I will probably get the book anyway. :D
As said before, they are unlikely to appear in APs as pregens, so let's not really quibble over names. Face it, too many times people think concepts need to be a class when they are really representative of something else. I personally don't think there needs to be a class named barbarian. Barbarians are a type of culture. The class could exist as a berserker, though. I like swashbucklers, but really it is a style, more than a class. might be better as a feat chain that anybody could take to be considered a swashbuckler. Sinbad is a swashbuckler, but doesn't fit the class because he uses a scimitar, non-finessable weapon, rather than a rapier.
Let's just wait & see what Paizo makes, with our feedback. Right now there isn't really anything to give too much feedback on.
|
|
I disliked the name "Oracle", but I am beginning to have reservations about my dislike now. I do not think I would say I "hated" it. I just thought there might be something that fits better, especially with the Hercules model provided. However, I am starting to come around.
That's pretty much where I was, thinking that there might be a term that was more representative of what the Oracle was doing.
But now that my evolution to thread-derailing 'hater' is complete, I feel all dirty.
|
|
So you're also almost guaranteeing goblin, boggard and troll iconics? After all, those are apparently at least as likely... is this related to the rumors of new rules for monster PC races in the (probably quite distant) future?An iconic tengu would be approximately 503,324 times as cool as a dwarf, in fact. That said... the tengu's hardly an iconic RACE to begin with, so we're no more likely to make an iconic character into a tengu then, say, a goblin or a boggard or a troll.
But that said, I suspect that there will indeed be an iconic tengu at some point. In fact, I can almost guarantee it. But I can't say WHEN this happy day will come to pass.
Nah, it's just related to the fact that I'd like to see an iconic goblin, tengu, boggard, and troll some day. :-)
Anyone else like that idea?
As long as none of them are BARDS! *shudder*
And you better hurry up with those... 2012 is just around the corner so not much time left....
Oh oh oh slogan for future Paizocons... party like its 2012! Prince was off by 13 years...
Considering this is a nondemocracy (thank god, only thing I've found worse than democracy is communism), count my nonvote for "call it whatever the heck you want to". The name of a class is, in my humble opinion, the most irrelivent fact about it. In my campaigns fighter's are rarely refered to as fighters, but instead called soldiers or thugs, depending on the occupation. I think paladins and druids are the only classes I refer to as their name in game. Everything else is variable dependent upon circumstance. A cleric of a war god, decked out in armor and holding a mace and shield is refered to as a holy warrior, or possibly knight. A cleric of the god of knowledge, in his robes carying a staff is refered to as a scholar or priest.
Of all the things to cause a stir. Has anyone looked at just how silly the barbarian class name is? It's not a barbarian, it's a berzerker. Totaly idiotic. Other than illiteracy, what has ever made the barbarian class barbaric? It's all about throwing temper tantrums.
Anyways, on a bit more of a serious note. The other two classes were to be anounced at Australia's gencon right...has this happened yet or is it still a wase off?